Was one list a good idea

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

Moderators: North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako

Post Reply
hamstandard
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:33 am

Was one list a good idea

Post by hamstandard »

All that effort to join the mainline seniority list. Doesn't that mean that any laid off WJ pilot can now bump back to Encore captain just a few months after the vote.
---------- ADS -----------
  

citizenbanana
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:45 am

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by citizenbanana »

No, no it was not
---------- ADS -----------
  

pacman007
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:25 pm

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by pacman007 »

Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t WestJet have to go from the bottom up for layoffs? Regardless of swoop encore or mainline? So they can’t target mainline pilots?
But if 100-200 pilots get layed off won’t that shut swoop down, because all the swoop pilots are new?
---------- ADS -----------
  

notwhoyouthinkIam
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:49 am

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

Seriously guys?

The only person who would be able to bump you out is someone who was on property before you.

*If* they are going to lay people off, the one-list is not going to be the reason why you are chosen.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yycjetdriver
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by Yycjetdriver »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:10 pm
Seriously guys?

The only person who would be able to bump you out is someone who was on property before you.

*If* they are going to lay people off, the one-list is not going to be the reason why you are chosen.
Obviously!
What they’re saying is if layoffs were to happen they wouldn’t just cut positions in relation to the seniority list numbers. They may decide they want to cut:
X-number of Mainline Captains/FO’s,
X-Number of Encore Captains/FO’s
X-number of Swoop Captains/FO’s

Now since there has been constant outside hiring for basically every single one of those positions (except mainline captain), the bumping down that could result would be extreme and resulting in many training events.
Example they want to cut Mainline Captain by 1. That junior captain gets bumped to Mainline FO(training event). The junior FO that gets bumped maybe has seniority to bump a Swoop Captain (Training event) that Swoop Captain has the seniority to bump a Swoop FO(training event), that Swoop FO has seniority to bump an Encore DEC(training event) that DEC has seniority to bump and flush an Encore FO(training event).
A bit of a stretch but basically it could turn into a real shit show and an expensive one at that.
---------- ADS -----------
  

derateNO
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:15 pm

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by derateNO »

pacman007 wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:10 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t WestJet have to go from the bottom up for layoffs? Regardless of swoop encore or mainline? So they can’t target mainline pilots?
But if 100-200 pilots get layed off won’t that shut swoop down, because all the swoop pilots are new?
Theoretically, yes.

Same reason AC is holding on to all the 737 and same reason we won't see layoffs anytime soon. The list is too diversified through the whole fleet, and to lay off 100-500 pilots in seniority would cause such a headache for retraining that it's not worth it. The cost will be similar or less to just pay everyone low DBMs for 6 months.

There's a few people on this site who love to talk shit about the seniority system but here is a great example where it's going to likely end up saving everyone's jobs in the short/med term.

If we were like Europe or Asia with no real seniority they would just lay off whoever they wanted from each position/roster without any issues. Just like what happened in Cathay and Norwegian.
---------- ADS -----------
  

tps8903
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:40 pm

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by tps8903 »

pacman007 wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:10 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t WestJet have to go from the bottom up for layoffs? Regardless of swoop encore or mainline? So they can’t target mainline pilots?
But if 100-200 pilots get layed off won’t that shut swoop down, because all the swoop pilots are new?
Read section 8 and 9 of the PTA. That will answer your question. You likely won’t enjoy the conclusion.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pacman007
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:25 pm

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by pacman007 »

Don't have access to the PTA agreemet...what does it say?
---------- ADS -----------
  

notwhoyouthinkIam
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:49 am

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

It says, "This is a confidential file and is not to be shared outside of the WestJet group of companies."

Do you have a more specific question?
---------- ADS -----------
  

tps8903
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:40 pm

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by tps8903 »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:20 pm
It says, "This is a confidential file and is not to be shared outside of the WestJet group of companies."

Do you have a more specific question?
That gave me a much needed chuckle. Thank You.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Shinyjetsyndrome
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 9:07 am

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by Shinyjetsyndrome »

derateNO wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:36 am
If we were like Europe or Asia with no real seniority they would just lay off whoever they wanted from each position/roster without any issues. Just like what happened in Cathay and Norwegian.
Not true. Cathay has not laid off pilots, yet. They have halted hiring and postponed all future courses. However, with the latest update that HK is now going to impose a mandatory quarantine for all visitors regardless of origin (aside from mainland, Macau, and Taiwan), things are probably about to change for the worst. Most likely, early retirements and voluntary redundancies will be the first step. If it gets to the point that layoffs are required, the COS calls for last in, first out. They do have the same complications that AC/WS have in terms of layoffs creating training headaches due to the mixed fleet, but there's rumours that layoffs could be done according to fleet, if the company can get approval from the government to make an emergency alteration to the contract due to the current circumstances.
---------- ADS -----------
  

derateNO
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:15 pm

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by derateNO »

Shinyjetsyndrome wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:39 pm
derateNO wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:36 am
If we were like Europe or Asia with no real seniority they would just lay off whoever they wanted from each position/roster without any issues. Just like what happened in Cathay and Norwegian.
Not true. Cathay has not laid off pilots, yet. They have halted hiring and postponed all future courses. However, with the latest update that HK is now going to impose a mandatory quarantine for all visitors regardless of origin (aside from mainland, Macau, and Taiwan), things are probably about to change for the worst. Most likely, early retirements and voluntary redundancies will be the first step. If it gets to the point that layoffs are required, the COS calls for last in, first out. They do have the same complications that AC/WS have in terms of layoffs creating training headaches due to the mixed fleet, but there's rumours that layoffs could be done according to fleet, if the company can get approval from the government to make an emergency alteration to the contract due to the current circumstances.
My mistake, I was told that some Cathay pilots were sent home to Canada/US/Aus and understood that as "laid off".. If they are still collecting a paycheck great for them.
---------- ADS -----------
  

notwhoyouthinkIam
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:49 am

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

OP wrote:Wat one list a good idea
Yes, it was. :)

I'm sure that someone will break the news soon.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yycjetdriver
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by Yycjetdriver »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:26 am
OP wrote:Wat one list a good idea
Yes, it was. :)

I'm sure that someone will break the news soon.
While the news is good, what does it have to do with the one list?
If anything the one list isn’t being honoured right now. The news is a result of hard work over the past few days by the union(mainline and swoop MEC).
---------- ADS -----------
  

notwhoyouthinkIam
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:49 am

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

Remember, every 737 pilot that bumps down into the Q would require ~$20,000 in training.

It forced the company's hand.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yycjetdriver
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by Yycjetdriver »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:26 am
Remember, every 737 pilot that bumps down into the Q would require ~$20,000 in training.

It forced the company's hand.
Don’t think the company isn’t ecstatic this way this played out. Zero retraining and they get to keep Swoop flying because probably 99% of their pilots would have been laid off..... and what did this cost the company.... nothing.... What did it cost us, 41% pay cuts.

On top of all that, with them now not following 20-1.01 of the agreement, they got a 41% discount of every pilot for 45 days.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3138
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by Bede »

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:13 pm
Don’t think the company isn’t ecstatic this way this played out. Zero retraining and they get to keep Swoop flying because probably 99% of their pilots would have been laid off..... and what did this cost the company.... nothing.... What did it cost us, 41% pay cuts.
1. I don't think that the company is exactly "ecstatic" about losing millions every day.
2. Yes we took a 41% pay cut. But we're going to be doing less than 50% of the work (we won't be flying our MMG- WB guys probably won't be flying at all). Do you want to be out being around people on a full block right now?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yycjetdriver
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Bede wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:05 am
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:13 pm
Don’t think the company isn’t ecstatic this way this played out. Zero retraining and they get to keep Swoop flying because probably 99% of their pilots would have been laid off..... and what did this cost the company.... nothing.... What did it cost us, 41% pay cuts.
1. I don't think that the company is exactly "ecstatic" about losing millions every day.
2. Yes we took a 41% pay cut. But we're going to be doing less than 50% of the work (we won't be flying our MMG- WB guys probably won't be flying at all). Do you want to be out being around people on a full block right now?
1. Didn’t say they were ecstatic with the situation, but they’re running an airline so they need to deal with it. They’re probably ecstatic with the deal they got off us. Cheapest and best case scenario for them.

2. I don’t know your situation and don’t want to assume. I personally will be fine, but I couldn’t imagine being a junior pilot trying to pay rent in a city like Toronto or Vancouver, makes me think there will be some forced to quit/request a leave and find alternative work anyways.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cloak
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by cloak »

Such adversarial posture, especially now, is really not helpful. It is also not helpful, more than anything for oneself, to think that one is working for an evil empire that is exploiting every situation! In that case, it is much healthier, for the sake of one and others, to leave the said evil empire and seek happier places of employment, life is too short, recent events are simply another reminder!

This can be said to be the result of productive "negotiations", and productive negotiations have two sides, both of which find common aspirations and work towards a common goal. Much better perspective and more consensus-building! Humans are resilient, we will recover!!
---------- ADS -----------
  

mbav8r
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: Was one list a good idea

Post by mbav8r »

One needs to ask oneself(yes, light hearted jab directed at cloak) if 59% of their wages would be more than EI? I’m pretty sure I know the answer but you need to answer it yourself to make peace with it.
I’m also willing to bet, if not for this the layoffs would have been significant, I’m 13 years at Jazz and I’m waiting for my pink slip(synonymous with lay off, for those not having been), I don’t believe I’ll make the cut. My wife is also likely getting a lay-off notice.
For me, I’ve been tested for covid and await the results, mild symptoms but more scary than losing my house, keep safe and professional out there!
---------- ADS -----------
  
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"

Post Reply

Return to “WestJet Encore”