Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

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Black_Tusk
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Black_Tusk »

Jazz starts at 34,700 per year ( before tax) per diems are around roughly 1100 per month. You can save a bit and attempt to pocket this..

Days worked 16-18 per month averaging around 7 legs per day flown. It’s possble to fly up to 90 hours / month on reserve.
This isnt' really all that accurate. The pay is high 30's, diems average closer to 1200-1300/month. I had a pretty awesome year with lots of time off in chunks, and with a bit of O/T the rest of the time I made about $50k pre tax. Not including per diems.

Granted I fly the jet, but my Q friends are pretty similar with the days worked as I am. Usually around 14-16. On a busy day I do 3 legs.. Q fellas 4, maybe 5 but they aren't long legs looking at the bid pacs. Average duty day hovers around 10-11 hours with the odd 13 hour day. 14 hour days basically never happen unless it's IROPS. Rowdy has a good handle on -8 flying so listen to what he says.

Reserve guys are flying like 5-10 days a months right now and have been for a while. I was on reserve for 6 months as an FO and the most I flew in a month was 60 credit hours (not the same as hours flown by a long shot.)
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Black_Tusk »

mbav8r wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:38 pm Know your contract, if you are doing 7 legs and 14 hours, you are exceeding contractual limits! The most you can do in a scheduled 14 hour duty, scheduled being the key word, is 5 landings, 6 if the pilot agrees to it.

“The total number of operational landings in a Duty Period plus the total number of duty hours in a Duty Period shall be known as fatigue units (FU's). The maximum number of scheduled FU's in a Duty Period shall be nineteen (19), with Pilot discretion this may be increased to twenty (20). The maximum number of operational landings in any Duty Period shall be eight is 8.


Most new people at Jazz haven't even read the contract! The fact he said he didn't think there was a leg limit proves that. The first thing I did was I picked it apart when I was sitting reserve for the first few months. If you know what you're entitled too, our contract is one of if not the best in Canada aside from starting pay.
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Air.Field
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Air.Field »

Black_Tusk wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:43 pm
mbav8r wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:38 pm Know your contract, if you are doing 7 legs and 14 hours, you are exceeding contractual limits! The most you can do in a scheduled 14 hour duty, scheduled being the key word, is 5 landings, 6 if the pilot agrees to it.

“The total number of operational landings in a Duty Period plus the total number of duty hours in a Duty Period shall be known as fatigue units (FU's). The maximum number of scheduled FU's in a Duty Period shall be nineteen (19), with Pilot discretion this may be increased to twenty (20). The maximum number of operational landings in any Duty Period shall be eight is 8.


Most new people at Jazz haven't even read the contract! The fact he said he didn't think there was a leg limit proves that. The first thing I did was I picked it apart when I was sitting reserve for the first few months. If you know what you're entitled too, our contract is one of if not the best in Canada aside from starting pay.
I would disagree, have you seen the other ones? Maybe top 5, but not the best.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Bede »

JBI is bang on- I pretty much tell younger pilots the same thing when I see them. Flow/fast upgrade is nice, but if it's not happening much it doesn't make up for the crummy wages at the bottom. On the other hand, when I started, I made poor wages for a lot longer than new pilots do now.

I've done the math on WJ upgrades; this relates indirectly to Encore flow. I figured that once the 787 is on the property, that will be pretty much it for upgrades/hiring at mainline WJ. Anyone less than ~1100 on the list will get a much faster upgrade at AC. Of course Swoop is a big wild card, but I would never recommend anyone going there for a number of resaons. Mass retirements at this company are a ways off and won't be anything close to what AC has. This has big implications for upgrades/flow.

WJ is a good job but it appears that WJ management is doing everything in their power to ensure that pilots don't have the same quality job in the future that I do now.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Black_Tusk »

Air.Field wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:56 am
Black_Tusk wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:43 pm
mbav8r wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:38 pm Know your contract, if you are doing 7 legs and 14 hours, you are exceeding contractual limits! The most you can do in a scheduled 14 hour duty, scheduled being the key word, is 5 landings, 6 if the pilot agrees to it.

“The total number of operational landings in a Duty Period plus the total number of duty hours in a Duty Period shall be known as fatigue units (FU's). The maximum number of scheduled FU's in a Duty Period shall be nineteen (19), with Pilot discretion this may be increased to twenty (20). The maximum number of operational landings in any Duty Period shall be eight is 8.


Most new people at Jazz haven't even read the contract! The fact he said he didn't think there was a leg limit proves that. The first thing I did was I picked it apart when I was sitting reserve for the first few months. If you know what you're entitled too, our contract is one of if not the best in Canada aside from starting pay.
I would disagree, have you seen the other ones? Maybe top 5, but not the best.
I haven't seen them, but have friends who work at Sunwing, AT, AC, WJ, Encore etc. I'd say from a pay perspective Sunwing/AT do pretty well. Working conditions/benefits, Jazz beats AC and Encore by a mile. WJ I can't comment on.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by seriousflyer »

I would agree with Mr. JBI initial post. I have been here two years and I'm noticing a shift in opportunity in the big picture of aviation, mainly because Swoop is a priority for management, thus casuing alot of negative sentiment towards a pilots career at Westjet.

ONE of the reasons, we brought in Alpa to Encore is because new hire FOs, are projected as of today, to be at Encore 6 years minimally. The current pilot agreement is inadequate for a pilot to live on till 2021 (end of current agreement) . We longer payscales, 4 weeks vacation intially, min credit, YOS to carry over to mainline.

These attributes to a Encore contract will make us more compettitve with jazz and AC.

Who knows? Swoop will blanket Flair routes on June 15, 2018, and 1 airline will survive. Flair pilots might fill a whole bunch of swoop flight decks thus, relieving pressure on westjet mgmt for pilots and the wheel goes around again...thats the thing, alot of uncertainty and pilots hate uncertainty.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by mbav8r »

seriousflyer wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:43 am I would agree with Mr. JBI initial post. I have been here two years and I'm noticing a shift in opportunity in the big picture of aviation, mainly because Swoop is a priority for management, thus casuing alot of negative sentiment towards a pilots career at Westjet.

ONE of the reasons, we brought in Alpa to Encore is because new hire FOs, are projected as of today, to be at Encore 6 years minimally. The current pilot agreement is inadequate for a pilot to live on till 2021 (end of current agreement) . We longer payscales, 4 weeks vacation intially, min credit, YOS to carry over to mainline.

These attributes to a Encore contract will make us more compettitve with jazz and AC.

Who knows? Swoop will blanket Flair routes on June 15, 2018, and 1 airline will survive. Flair pilots might fill a whole bunch of swoop flight decks thus, relieving pressure on westjet mgmt for pilots and the wheel goes around again...thats the thing, alot of uncertainty and pilots hate uncertainty.
I can’t really tell, do you support the flying swoop will do being flown by pilots who are not WJ/Encore Pilots at a reduced rate?
For me, who cares about management pressure, that’s why they make the big bucks isn’t it? Swoop, will undoubtedly make that 6 years to WJ 8 or so. Non union pilots doing the work of union pilots only have one outcome, lower wages for all. We all know what happened when AC pilots allowed SR, yes before SR was allowed AC pilots had to remove the language that said “Only” Jazz would fly 76 seats or less, with exception of the 1900 at GGN. This is no different and you need to stop the cycle of repeating history.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by seriousflyer »

Mbav8r - this thread isnt about swoop flying, and who is flying it. This thread is about the opportunity and things to consider when applying at Encore.
I've commented about swoop flying in the appropriate threads. But a brief opinion about swoop.

Westjet pilots need a contract clause describing that swoop can't grow unless mainline grows. Similar to Acpa contract. But who knows ? Company might "railroad us" on that as well, and just run their own agenda with out their pilots input again.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by mbav8r »

Really, read the post of yours that I quoted and commented on, then tell me swoop has nothing to do with Encore opportunities, your last sentence seemed to imply you support the use of swoop to squash Flair which is why I asked the question
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by goleafsgo »

Rowdy wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:18 pm Thecommentsfor jazz are way off. On Reserve, my average number of legs on a day is 3. Sometimes I deadhead to an overnight to operate one flight home the following day. Some times I get a whole 3 or 4 day pairing, with an average of 5 legs a day. Next to none thus far have been over 6. I'm with mbav8r. Thats massive exaggeration.

I've yet to come near a 14hr duty day. Most are 9hrs.I've yet to be blocked more than 15 days in a month of work when bidding pairings. A couple times I've had 13 day months. I know some with 11 day months. I've yet to work more than 9 days while on reserve, I believe the average for the past twelve months has been 5 of the 18 on. Three years here and counting..

I've never been called or questioned about booking off. I've never been bullied to take overtime. I've never been pushed around by crew sched. EVER. There have been a couple of times where I've said 'sorry thats outside the contract' when called on reserve. But we do have quite a few new hands in the pot these days and they looked and agreed.

JBI is always incredibly clear and concise and in my opinion has been nothing but majorly unbiased when he presents his opinions. I always value his contributions.
+1. YYZ classic 5 legs is a long day. Don't think I've done more than that
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by seriousflyer »

Swoop is something to consider when applying to Encore. We are learning how it will affect encore more and more everyday.
Flair will be challenged to compete with swoop, if you've seen the recent Casm from flair and the projected casm from swoop.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by mbav8r »

I’m posting this here’s so people can consider it before giving any weight to comments made by medicinebuddha.
MedicineBuddha wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:18 pm It looks to me that Jazz is undercutting Sky Regional and NOT the other way around ...
Aside from the obvious varying degrees of probable flexibility at a larger operation why work at Jazz??

Seems like sour grapes on Jazz's end..

Jazz start wage 34.50/hr vs upwards of 40/ HR. Also from what I hear OT kicks in at jazz after 85 hours. Also, no two tiered pay schedule at one company..
Interesting, you post on another thread about the conditions at Jazz from an insiders perspective, so if you are at Jazz what is the answer to the question above, why work at Jazz?
Are you a new born, Jazz might be undercutting SR now but when we had 135 aircraft and were doing the work SR is doing now, we did pay better!
I wish Jazz had a better way to weed out applicants, clearly you were deceitful during your interview. You would have interviewed around the same time you made this post to be on line and posting about it 3 months later saying how you average 7 legs a day etc.
BTW, you and pilots like you who complain about the conditions but accept them, then go on forums and talk about how if you get a PFO from AC you’ll be applying elsewhere, assuming Encore is on that list, given what I can gather from you Swoop too, are why the undercutting is continuing.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by MedicineBuddha »

I find it funny how people get very defensive ...
I apologize for offending anyone and that was not my intent.

I don’t work for Jazz.

I have several friends who have/ do some have stayed some have moved on. Some enjoy they job some do not. I have entertained both encore and Jazz.

I’m unable to make the pay cut and the numbers didn’t add up and have stuck out my northern airline job. I enjoy my days off and where I live and the job as a whole. Others at my company have moved and gone to jazz in an attempt to go to AC and have told me how they like it or didn’t. AC is not for me based on many factors but for those who want to make the move all the power to you..

I’ve also been in the industry for 10 + years ...

Black Tusk,

I did not say anyone is doing 7 day legs on the CRJ or the Q.

I have seen some of the classic pairings and maybe the “ average” isn’t 7 legs but some 7 legs do exist. It was very poor wording on my part. For that, I apologize! have been sent some of the typical pairings and yeah it seem to range from 3 -7. Seven legs is a ton...I will say that. I’m not a spring chicken anymore and that would exhaust me.

My info is second hand ..but I do trust the information I’ve been handed.

However, all I tried to say is that from what I hear people are happy with many aspects of Jazz but the pay.. In essence, I’m saying you folks are worth more than you are paid? Is that so bad?? Hahahahha


Like I said, I never said it was a bad place to work!! I don’t work there? How could I know ? Who knows, maybe if you folks came to my place of employment you’d hate my job. Different strokes for different folks. We do work with our employer to make things better. Is it perfect? No! No job, hobby, etc is.. life is imperfect. I try to objectively look at what works best for me and reassess if what I’m doing is working for me and my family even at my job.

I don’t understand the politics between AC, SR, JZ etc. I’m removed from that scene. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong! Note: “ it seems to me that XYZ” .. meaning it isn’t necessarily so and I’m unsure. I don’t know so enlighten me ?!

The point of my post was to compare and contrast encore vs Jazz. So those who are trying to make the decision. I was there at one point..

I’ve looked at both and chose neither !

Fly safe and take care !

:)
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by mbav8r »

MedicineBuddha wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:53 am I don’t know if there is !

There’s charters in the summer which are two leg gravy days out west.

However, by in large, If I’m doing day pairings on RES I’m around 7 legs flown per day with 15-20 minute turns . It could depend on the aircraft type and base though ..

I’ve been at 7 and been asked to tack on two more legs .. it happens

I’d imagine less legs for the RJ.. I can’t comment on the Q.

Some people bid continuous duties/ Reservr nights and they fly way way less legs.
MedicineBuddha wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:47 pm I find it funny how people get very defensive ...
I apologize for offending anyone and that was not my intent.

I don’t work for Jazz.

I have several friends who have/ do some have stayed some have moved on. Some enjoy they job some do not. I have entertained both encore and Jazz.

I’m unable to make the pay cut and the numbers didn’t add up and have stuck out my northern airline job. I enjoy my days off and where I live and the job as a whole. Others at my company have moved and gone to jazz in an attempt to go to AC and have told me how they like it or didn’t. AC is not for me based on many factors but for those who want to make the move all the power to you..

I’ve also been in the industry for 10 + years ...

Black Tusk,

I did not say anyone is doing 7 day legs on the CRJ or the Q.

I have seen some of the classic pairings and maybe the “ average” isn’t 7 legs but some 7 legs do exist. It was very poor wording on my part. For that, I apologize! have been sent some of the typical pairings and yeah it seem to range from 3 -7. Seven legs is a ton...I will say that. I’m not a spring chicken anymore and that would exhaust me.

My info is second hand ..but I do trust the information I’ve been handed.

However, all I tried to say is that from what I hear people are happy with many aspects of Jazz but the pay.. In essence, I’m saying you folks are worth more than you are paid? Is that so bad?? Hahahahha


Like I said, I never said it was a bad place to work!! I don’t work there? How could I know ? Who knows, maybe if you folks came to my place of employment you’d hate my job. Different strokes for different folks. We do work with our employer to make things better. Is it perfect? No! No job, hobby, etc is.. life is imperfect. I try to objectively look at what works best for me and reassess if what I’m doing is working for me and my family even at my job.

I don’t understand the politics between AC, SR, JZ etc. I’m removed from that scene. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong! Note: “ it seems to me that XYZ” .. meaning it isn’t necessarily so and I’m unsure. I don’t know so enlighten me ?!

The point of my post was to compare and contrast encore vs Jazz. So those who are trying to make the decision. I was there at one point..

I’ve looked at both and chose neither !

Fly safe and take care !

:)
MedicineBuddha wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:53 am I don’t know if there is !

There’s charters in the summer which are two leg gravy days out west.

However, by in large, If I’m doing day pairings on RES I’m around 7 legs flown per day with 15-20 minute turns . It could depend on the aircraft type and base though ..

I’ve been at 7 and been asked to tack on two more legs .. it happens

I’d imagine less legs for the RJ.. I can’t comment on the Q.

Some people bid continuous duties/ Reservr nights and they fly way way less legs.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

JBI, I feel your anguish, somewhat at how things have turned out. I'm curious though, you say:
...I've been severely disappointed in how upper management has botched the Swoop roll out and tried to push it through without buy in from the pilots.
I'm just not sure what you would have the corporation do different. Until certification by ALPA of mainline pilots, each mainline pilot had the mechanism, via a breach of contract action (see Mandalena Lewis Breach of Contract action to sue WJ had they started the Swoop airline without staffing it with pilots on the WPDL. The same for Encore pilots, prior to their certification by ALPA. It was in the bag. Now, what you and your colleagues have done, is supply the company with the force majeure it needed to staff with whomever answers the call. And from a business perspective, why wouldn't they? It were the collective pilot bodies at both groups who repudiated the relationship and chose "black and white" over the exosting collaborative relationship. I am puzzled why that is so hard to understand by you and your colleagues. If what you wanted was continued movement, and the opportunity to fly at Swoop with no penalty, why certify? Even after ALPA at mainline, Encore could have staffed Swoop, albeit at the cost of an illusory seniority number at WJ mainline, but each pilot could have made that decision. Now, where are you? ALPA has solidifed the two pilot bodies (WJ and WJE into two bargaining units that they themselves suggested was appropriate for bargaining, and the CIRB agreed. Accordingly, there will not be, absent a change in the business relationship, a single employer designation ever at WJ.

So, one party wanted a divorce, the other didn't, and now you expect the aggrieved party to have your best interests at heart. In my divorce experience, this is unrealistic.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. But hey, you're still in a better position than my young friend, Jean . You have a flying job and you have choices. You can stay or go. Which you are obviously aware of given your original post.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by JBI »

Sorry NCP,

There's a couple points that you make incorrect assumptions on.

-Force majuere has no legal relevance in this situation whatsoever.

-As someone who had previously done work with the WJPA (and a number of the current ALPA reps at both mainline and Encore had been part of the WJPA), the collaborative relationship that you refer to was non-existent. I'll be the first to admit I have not been part of WJ/WEN for a long time, so I can't comment on how things were back in the 'old' days but from what I saw, there was great interaction with Flight Ops management (who I continue to suggest are excellent), and horrible interaction with upper management. Think about this for a moment: there are a number of WJPA reps who were in favour of ALPA and have now stepped up to continue to support the pilots through ALPA. These are the exact people who witnessed the so called "collaborative relationship" first hand and had direct interaction with upper management - if former WJPA reps who had direct exposure to this 'relationship' wanted a different type of relationship, you should be questioning how good that relationship actually was.

-The single employer designation is something I've spoken ad nauseum about on this forum and others. While I don't disagree that there were some benefits for the Encore group not certifying right away, it really is a non-issue.

-I don't expect your "aggrieved party" to want to have my best interests at heart, I expect them to abide by the terms of the contract. Period. In addition, I expect them to act in a way that will set the whole company up for long term success. In my opinion, the way they have implemented Swoop does not do so.

This thread is not about Swoop (you've started 7 or 8 others for that purpose), this thread is a discussion for considerations for potential pilots looking to come to Encore. While Swoop may be a factor, the more salient points have to do with lifestyle/working conditions and career advancement. From the outside things may look absolutely amazing, and in some respects they are pretty great, but there are a number of factors that should be giving potential pilots pause before coming to Encore without interviewing anywhere else. In the past, people would come to WestJet/Encore because hey, even though the pay was a little less and you worked a little more, the company was amazing, treated their employees well and everyone loved working there and you'd flow super quick. It's still a good company, but I'd argue that the morale has eroded to the point where, while yes, it's still enjoyable, there's no way that the myth of good morale should cause someone to choose to get paid less and work harder than counterparts at some AC Express regionals.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by JTrain »

JBI -

Excellent response to NCP.

I doubt we'll see NCP again in this thread, as he specializes in "hit and run threads" - posting something incendiary, which is usually a gross distortion of facts from a pro WJ management perspective, then not sticking around to deal with the responses. Typically he'll start another thread to continue to pontificate upon his point of view, which have very little grounding in reality, repeat ad nauseum for months at a time. He is a pox on our entire pilot group.

It might be worthwhile to copy and paste your response to every thread he starts, just to save some time and energy at your end.

jt
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