How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

[WeedPro2000]

Hi Tacoma,

I feel so very sad for you, and for others on the Q who believe that ALPA has this problem licked. If you take your thinking just a little bit further, you will see that the one list is a stale document that won't be updated past the last update in August. Once the statutory freeze is over (when the CBA is handed down by the Kaplan chap), the WPDL will be officially dead and buried, and the only terms of employment that will exist for the mainline pilots will be the CBA.

What I think ALPA would like you to believe, is that the company will just accept the LOU and sign it. Why would they do that? Both pilot groups have decided they want ALPA, so the company is under no moral obligation to defend the one list. Zero. Hiring and pilot retention is the company's concern, not ALPA's. Don't you worry, the company has a plan for dealing with Q pilots and it doesn't involve the headaches of a combined list. If ALPA want's a combined seniority list, they should concentrate their efforts at the CIRB with a common employer ruling, because with the way that ALPA has sabotaged the relationship between upper management and themselves, there is ZERO goodwill from which to draw on. The company would rather see ALPA suffer for its behaviour than sign that LOU.

I hear the CPA (Link) is working out great...think about that. What would it take to sell the Q operation?

Regarding the legality of the proposed LOU, I made some inquiries. I wouldn't be so sure that it passes muster. As WeedPro has pointed out, ALPA and the MEC are constitutionally obligated to follow the policies of the Executive Board. Again, as WeedPro pointed out, the seniority list has to be ordered by DOH, which ALPA has finally conceded and why ALPA now needs an LOU to get back what is now lost. The WestJet Pilot Seniority List that Kaplan ordered Swoop pilots added to, does not have any current Q pilots on it...

ALPA_1956_Seniority_Policy.jpg (601.7 KiB) Viewed 1929 times

What the proposed LOU says is ALPA will try to override seniority. In effect, they will try to bring in super-seniority for pilots who flowed from the Q. That will be interesting, as the same 1956 Executive Board policy that dictated DOH for the seniority list construction, also dictates that seniority (not super-seniority) will govern all promotions etc (see attachment, Seniority- General, (c)). Although the proposed LOU will never see the light of day due to the company's refusal to even look at it, if it did, the OTS pilots would have an instant breach of contract action against ALPA. The remedy for a sucessful breach action would include restoring pilots to the position they would have been in absent the breach by ALPA. The company is fully aware of ALPA policies and what would happen if they had to retrain and demote people etc in the event of a challenge. They won't be touching a seniority list or upgrade list that is based on something other than DOH at mainline.

ALPA_1956_Seniority_Policy.jpg (601.7 KiB) Viewed 1929 times

And remember, the company will shortly begin the long process of negotiating a CBA with the Q pilots. Why would they hand over a gift now? They would be better extracting something in return. Same with the mainline pilots. If the mainline pilots are so hot and horny to have the one list, the company will extract a pound or two of flesh in return. What are the mainline pilots willing to give up in order to give Q pilots credit for time served at another company?

One last reason that the company will not entertain closer ties between the Q pilots and mainline pilots by way of an LOU, is that it brings the company one step closer to a successful common employer action, which ALPA has admitted is their goal. Ain't gonna happen

ALPA knows all of the above to be true. The document they issued a few days ago regarding the one list was merely designed to deflect the anger that will occur when the former and existing Q pilots realize that the emperor is not wearing any clothes, there is no WPDL, and all current and former Q pilots will take their place on a mainline seniority list according to the day they started employment. At mainline.

I take no pleasure in informing you that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are fictional characters, along with any concept that a one list has a life beyond Kaplan's decision on the CBA. Contact your LEC reps for more details.

My condolences.

ALPA_1956_Seniority_Policy.jpg (601.7 KiB) Viewed 1929 times

[Bede]

WeedPro,

Give it up already. You are wrong. All of your predictions prove to be false. It seems that the only person that doesn't want one list and is out to work against it is you. Not ALPA, not WJ, but you.

Please stop working against your colleagues.

[WeedPro2000]

Bede, I'm not even a member of ALPA, and I certainly can't influence management, so how could I possibly influence the results of a union/management negotiation? The poster challenged me to comment, so I did. I only speak my lived truth and since getting sober, I don't know how to operate any other way. I looked at the issue many different ways to see where the possibilities were, and I found none that allowed the WPDL to persist. Instead of attacking me, perhaps you'd like to rebut the arguments I raised. Failure to do so may result in an adverse inference.

No, my motivation isn't in seeing the WPDL be denied a second life. Rather, it is to point out who it was that hid the truth and to illuminate the path that brought WJE pilots to the bottom of the WJ Pilot Seniority List upon their starting life as new hires.

The WJ and WJE pilots complained prior to ALPA certification that they wanted black and white in choosing ALPA.

They got it.

WestJetMECWeeklyUpdate110218.pdf

(256.46 KiB) Downloaded 90 times

[Ex DC10 Driver]

Keep going Weed Pro...not all pilots want the one list. I know myself and all the off the street direct hires don’t. When I was hired my hiring package was dated 2009 and no where was their mention of a combined list. After 4 + years at WestJet my class still has 14 unflowed Encore pilots ahead of us with another 170 that have trickled over ahead of us in that same time. If Encore needs a carrot for pilots to apply there make it in the form of Wages and working conditions. WestJet is still hiring off the street direct onto the jet and they will be behind 500+ Encore pilots. The list should be based on WestJet date of hire not Encore. Just my two cents from the other side of the coin.

[fish4life]

Keep going Weed Pro...not all pilots want the one list. I know myself and all the off the street direct hires don’t. When I was hired my hiring package was dated 2009 and no where was their mention of a combined list. After 4 + years at WestJet my class still has 14 unflowed Encore pilots ahead of us with another 170 that have trickled over ahead of us in that same time. If Encore needs a carrot for pilots to apply there make it in the form of Wages and working conditions. WestJet is still hiring off the street direct onto the jet and they will be behind 500+ Encore pilots. The list should be based on WestJet date of hire not Encore. Just my two cents from the other side of the coin.

If you were hired in 09 how does encore have any effect? Didn’t it start 2012 or something like that?

[Ex DC10 Driver]

I started in 2014...my welcome to WestJet briefing package was dated 2009.

[Mr. North]

Keep going Weed Pro...not all pilots want the one list. I know myself and all the off the street direct hires don’t. When I was hired my hiring package was dated 2009 and no where was their mention of a combined list. After 4 + years at WestJet my class still has 14 unflowed Encore pilots ahead of us with another 170 that have trickled over ahead of us in that same time. If Encore needs a carrot for pilots to apply there make it in the form of Wages and working conditions. WestJet is still hiring off the street direct onto the jet and they will be behind 500+ Encore pilots. The list should be based on WestJet date of hire not Encore. Just my two cents from the other side of the coin.

Well it appears the solar radiation and rarefied air of the upper flight levels is causing someone to have a rather large sense of entitlement.

Your hiring package may have been dated 2009 but if you didn't know full well the circumstances of your employment that is no ones fault but your own. But lets forget about your wilful ignorance for a moment to consider instead all the accommodations your current status provides.

As an OTS hire at WestJet you enjoyed working less days a month while your immediate peers at Encore worked 20 (and only recently 18). You enjoy a 20% ESPP while they receive 10%. You could purchase options, they could not. By 2017 your hourly pay surpassed your peers at Encore AND you do not have to endure a pay-cut as they most certainly will once they flow over. The recent addition of YOS (which to date does not recognise time served at Encore) means you have a 4 year head start just for being on the right side of the fence! That's right! Whenever your classmates flow over to take their eventual upgrades in 3-4 years, you may have to wait a course or two but you can rest easy knowing you'll be a year 8 captain while they slide in at year 4 (through no fault of their own). How awesome is that!? /s

I'd like everyone reading this to consider just how much time and money this individual has enjoyed, all from being hired directly onto WestJet as opposed to being diverted to Encore. The difference is in hundreds of thousands of dollars and many more months spent at home. That's not enough however, he'd like everyone to know he's entitled to the upgrade before anyone else!! How dare those filthy Encore pilots (who were hired at the same time and under a pre-existing agreement) lay claim to his coveted left seat!!! Oh! The hardships this individual has had to endure!! May we all lament the headwinds buffeting his career!!

May I remind you that WestJet and Encore pilots are on the same team! The piloting profession will not advance by throwing your immediate peers under the bus!! Attitudes such as these pose a significant risk to our profession and one has to look no further than the sad history of regional aviation in Canada to witness it's effects. I take comfort in knowing your opinion is that of a small minority and getting smaller by the day. You would do well to consider how good you have it when so many others within the organisation are getting the shaft.

[Mr. North]

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[Mr. North]

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[Ex DC10 Driver]

As I stated...the carrot should not be the one list but improved wages and working conditions at Encore.

[WeedPro2000]

Mr. North, I sympathise with your position and the others at WJE. Throughout the certification campaign, and indeed before, I tried to convince others of the danger to the WPDL in the event of certification by ALPA. I had read the ALPA Constitution and the policies of the ALPA Executive Board. I read Canadian and US case law. Although I am not a lawyer, I can read. The principles behind why the WPDL is an extinct document under ALPA is simple enough. All it takes to understand the situation is to have the willingness to explore. The MECs of WJA and WJE put blinders on when they conceived whatever the LOU consists of. It is certainly NOT possible to deprive the seniority rights of a member of a bargaining unit simply to replicate a previous management policy. ALPA rules are clear.

Had we all taken the time to realize what the complications were in agreeing to the WPDL, it is likely it never would have seen the light of day. Instituting a policy that was vulnerable to attack at any time was unwise. But then most of us were unaware how close certification was, and therefore most didn't bother looking into the corners for where the monsters lie.

[WeedPro2000]

Here is the current and in-force version of the seniority policies from the ALPA Administrative Manual, Section 40. Compare these two pages (also attached as PDF to this post) to the seniority section from the 1967 ALPA Policy Manual posted by WeedPro above. They are identical. The policy has been in place for 62 years, since 1956! There is nothing more fundamental in ALPA than seniority/seniority list construction. It was put in place to combat exactly what the WPDL represents to a union, favouritism to pilots from a select group, in this case pilots from WJE.

It is so simple and was in full view for all to see. No one wanted to listen. It was a problem for another day. That day is almost here.

ALPA_Administrative_Manual_Section_40-23-24-page-001.jpg (302.48 KiB) Viewed 2062 times

ALPA_Administrative_Manual_Section_40-23-24-page-002.jpg (440.15 KiB) Viewed 2062 times

[cloak]

As I stated...the carrot should not be the one list but improved wages and working conditions at Encore.

So, you are saying that if WestJet wants to recognise service at Encore, it should give at its own expense (higher wages, vacation, bonus, etc.), and not at the expense of the pilots (seniority)? Carry forward YOS for pay and vacation, but seniority as date of flow into WestJet/Swoop?

[WeedPro2000]

Certainly the founding members of the ALPA OC at WJ wanted WJ/WJE pilots to believe the WPDL could be replicated in an ALPA CBA:

ALPA_OC_Communication_One_List_Flow_1.jpg (1.55 MiB) Viewed 2044 times

[WeedPro2000]

But as we know, the policy of the Executive Board passed in 1956 is that seniority must be based on DOH (non-merger) and seniority alone controls promotion (upgrade). From the latest ALPA Constitution and Bylaws (September 18, 2018), we see that the President of ALPA has a duty to uphold this policy:

ALPA_President_Oath_1_LI.jpg (1.54 MiB) Viewed 2037 times

As well, the MEC Chair also has a duty to uphold Executive Board policy:

MEC_Chairman_Duties-page-001_LI.jpg (1.52 MiB) Viewed 2037 times

[WeedPro2000]

And how would ALPA handle the MEC's (Captain RM) attempt to disregard Executive Board policy?

ALPA_Constitution_and_Bylaws_Discipline-page-001_LI.jpg (1.6 MiB) Viewed 2034 times

[WeedPro2000]

So you see, it's all there in black and white. There is no wiggle room. ALPA, for various reasons, cannot institute a replica of the WPDL. The policy that forbids it was issued by the Executive Board in 1956, and it is still present in the most recent Administrative Manual (Chapter 40) as of October 31, 2017. Anyone who thinks that there is any possible way to circumvent this reality is unfortunately living in a delusional state.

I suggest that some very hard questions be asked of the Canada Board President - Elect, the current WJ MEC Chairman, as well as well as the YVR LEC Secretary Treasurer, the three of whom were the original OC members and responsible for dissemination of inaccurate information that has adversely affected the lives of hundreds of current and former WJE pilots. I would caution any OTS pilots hired after 2014 from exhibiting any public pleasure at their winfall. Perhaps retreat to a quiet room with a sharpie and a paper copy of the WPDL. Congratulations on your good fortune. Be kind.

[flyer 1492]

Another name to add to the spam list...Right John.

[Ex DC10 Driver]

As I stated...the carrot should not be the one list but improved wages and working conditions at Encore.

So, you are saying that if WestJet wants to recognise service at Encore, it should give at its own expense (higher wages, vacation, bonus, etc.), and not at the expense of the pilots (seniority)? Carry forward YOS for pay and vacation, but seniority as date of flow into WestJet/Swoop?

No I am not saying that. The one list initially only benefited the company. The applications at Encore were drying up and so to intice applicants the “flow to WestJet with your seniority” was arranged. Wages should have been increased and with better working conditions so pilots would have wanted to go to Encore and not only use them as a stepping stone to WestJet. The one list if used with only 100% flow and no off the street hires would have made sense. However, with off the street hires at WestJet being employed at WestJet before a pilot flows across is where the problem arises. Encore pilots resign from Encore and then are hired at WestJet and even take part in the ‘New hire pizza party’. Make no mistake Encore pilots are not at WestJet...that is why they could not even vote on the Wide body MOA’s, they must resign from Encore and then are given a WestJet date of hire. With off the street hires having an earlier start date at WestJet. ALPA was wanted by a majority at both companies, WestJet and Encore, they are different companies. However, ALPA has its own rules about seniority and maybe all those who voted for and wanted ALPA should of done their research before voting them in.(I did read your response Mr. North)
If we are to be governed by ALPA rules then we should be governed by all ALPA rules. I believe seniority will become of even greater importance in the future at WestJet so yes I am looking into this. I have some limited knowledge of ALPA as I was an ALPA member for thirteen years and was an MEC member as a Capt. Rep for my previous employer. I do know seniority is everything at an ALPA company.
When I was hired at WestJet I was just happy to have been offered a full-time position (at a Company that I had wanted to come to for along time. Being offered an interview I likened to winning a lottery and was thrilled) after being told the positions at the company where I was at would be lost. I had a wife and three children to support and the one list was not something I was made aware of or went looking into. I prepared and studied for my interview, not the relationship between Encore and WestJet.
Additionally Mr. North I do not expect to see an upgrade for 8 more years not 4. There are over 500 pilots ahead of my class who are still F/O’s. 90ish by choice who by-passed their upgrade and who now if we do in fact get awarded years of service would be more inclined to upgrade. With retirements and expansion at 50 upgrades a year that is still 10 years from now so being optimistic I chose 8. If you think 180 Encore pilots who will have eventually flowed in front of my class is only a couple of missed upgrade courses you are mistaken. Additionally their years as a Captain, earning years of a Captain pay before we upgrade will surpass any benefit in pay we might of initially had. Now applicants to Encore have even lower total accumulated time than in the past and direct entry pilots with much higher time and experience will be placed on the one list below them while they are still working to acquire the necessary time and experience for the ATPL in some cases. I don’t believe they should have higher seniority than a direct entry jet pilot.
I guess we will all see come January what happens and how this plays out.

[WeedPro2000]

Another name to add to the spam list...Right John.

If I didn't have a proper response to the merits of an argument, I would attack the poster. What would you do?