Hiring outlook

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MrTurbine
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by MrTurbine » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:22 am

Yieldermatik wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:09 pm
yvrpilot82 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:38 pm
As an Encore pilot I'd say Jazz is the way to go. It seems like it's a lot easier now to get over to AC from there, unless you mess up the interview.
Yes, Encore has guaranteed flow and (at the moment anyway) the "one list" for seniority. But please think about how long you'll be spending at Encore. It's not the 3 years to flow as it used to be in days gone by. With close to 600 pilots, and flow being 50-75 on a good year...well, do the math. Would you spend that long at Jazz? Who, it must be said have far better working conditions. I'm not expecting many improvements on our long-awaited contract. My prediction is just basic industry standard duty rigs and holding onto the one-list.
So a new encore pilot would take roughly 10 years to flow? That sounds unreasonable.
Wrong. 5 years to flow to mainline, about a year to go to swoop.
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yvrpilot82
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by yvrpilot82 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:49 am

How do you figure 5 years to flow to mainline? 600 pilots at Encore. That would involve Encore flowing 120 a year. At the current 50% flow that means WJ would have to hire 240 pilots a year for the next 5 years.
I'm not trying to sound pessimistic, but I don't think that type of growth is on the horizon.
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by SPR » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:46 am

yvrpilot82 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:49 am
How do you figure 5 years to flow to mainline? 600 pilots at Encore. That would involve Encore flowing 120 a year. At the current 50% flow that means WJ would have to hire 240 pilots a year for the next 5 years.
I'm not trying to sound pessimistic, but I don't think that type of growth is on the horizon.
That's assuming that flow stays at 50%. Some classes lately have been 60-70% Encore, and, although it's unlikely, there's a slight possibility that the new contract could include a clause pushing the number higher. Also, you're ignoring all the Encore pilots who move to Transat, Sunwing, AC, corporate, go overseas, or even leave the industry entirely; there are a few guys nearing the end of their careers who might defer flow and just retire if it looks like that's a better option financially. There are some WestJet pilots leaving as well, so it's not just growth that will determine flow. I'd say 5-6 years right now would be realistic, but 10 would be way out there. The current payscale doesn't go past five years, and if the company is expecting people to stay longer than that they're going to have to sweeten the pot.
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RatMan
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by RatMan » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:56 pm

The WJE training taps...have they been turned back on yet? Anybody get a call or have insight??
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MrTurbine
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by MrTurbine » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:10 pm

yvrpilot82 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:49 am
How do you figure 5 years to flow to mainline? 600 pilots at Encore. That would involve Encore flowing 120 a year. At the current 50% flow that means WJ would have to hire 240 pilots a year for the next 5 years.
I'm not trying to sound pessimistic, but I don't think that type of growth is on the horizon.
A MAJORITY of our pilots don’t flow to Westjet mainline. AC, Transat, overseas and other companies/corporate, and a handful just defer. 5 years is realistic. If it were much higher, nobody would stay.
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by Freeport_Flyer » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:21 pm

Has anyone heard anything about hiring / ground schools? Anyone?

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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by tps8903 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:53 pm

yvrpilot82 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:49 am
How do you figure 5 years to flow to mainline? 600 pilots at Encore. That would involve Encore flowing 120 a year. At the current 50% flow that means WJ would have to hire 240 pilots a year for the next 5 years.
I'm not trying to sound pessimistic, but I don't think that type of growth is on the horizon.
Hiring is starting again in April. I asked management for a friend who is waiting.

Current flow as of last week is 3 years and 1 month.

I have been keeping tabs on attrition at Encore by crossing names of the list at Encore as the lists are updated and comparing it with flow. As it stands the list moves 15 names a month between flow to Encore, Swoop, other airlines and differing bids. Granted any and all of those deferred folks could Flow at any point slowing the list down.

Using the ACTUAL numbers and not taking into account growth, the current flow time for a new hire will be approximately 2 years and 11 months by time their number is called for mainline. Its a one year wait for Swoop (internal rule) if you should want to work there. In reality the Encore list will be exhausted for Swoop flow by the next bid which means you can go as soon as the company lets you.

Economies change however, but in the last year those are the numbers.
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180
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by 180 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:09 am

It wasn’t that long ago that you had to spend 5 to 10 years in the bush doing hard time before you had the time and relevant experience to get into Westjet. Now you can slide into Encore with a thousand hours of day VFR Caravan time.

It wasn’t that long ago that you needed 3,000 hours to sit left seat in a Navajo, 5,000 hours to sit left seat in a King Air, 8,000 hours to sit left seat in a Dash 8, and 10,000 hours to sit right seat in a 737.

And still people are whining about 5 or 6 years at Encore before flowing to Mainline? It’s never been easier!

Consider yourselves lucky to be a Q400 FO with 1,000 hours, a Q400 CA with 2,500 hours, and then a 737 FO with 5,000 hours, all the while living in civilization.

God forbid you have to sit in a Q400 for 5 or 6 years, pretty much straight out of flight school, before you get “your” jet.
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by Roadrunnersmother » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:38 am

180 wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:09 am
It wasn’t that long ago that you had to spend 5 to 10 years in the bush doing hard time before you had the time and relevant experience to get into Westjet. Now you can slide into Encore with a thousand hours of day VFR Caravan time.

It wasn’t that long ago that you needed 3,000 hours to sit left seat in a Navajo, 5,000 hours to sit left seat in a King Air, 8,000 hours to sit left seat in a Dash 8, and 10,000 hours to sit right seat in a 737.

And still people are whining about 5 or 6 years at Encore before flowing to Mainline? It’s never been easier!

Consider yourselves lucky to be a Q400 FO with 1,000 hours, a Q400 CA with 2,500 hours, and then a 737 FO with 5,000 hours, all the while living in civilization.

God forbid you have to sit in a Q400 for 5 or 6 years, pretty much straight out of flight school, before you get “your” jet.
It's still hard to get into encore. 6000+ hr seasoned king air captain waiting for call.
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180
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by 180 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:29 am

Hiring has slowed down since the fleet stabilized, but they’re still hiring. And it’s not uncommon to see an Encore FO with an Aerocourse ATPL textbook poking out of their flight bag.
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by Roadrunnersmother » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:32 am

180 wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:29 am
Hiring has slowed down since the fleet stabilized, but they’re still hiring. And it’s not uncommon to see an Encore FO with an Aerocourse ATPL textbook poking out of their flight bag.
How is an experienced king air captain with ATPL less qualified and not hired ?
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180
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by 180 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:36 am

I’m going to guess timing. Why didn’t you apply 2 years ago?

Either that, or a bad recommendation from a previous employer.

Do you have an internal recommend. If so, ask them to drop by the people department and ask how your application is looking.
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by Diadem » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:45 am

roadrunnersmother is either a troll, or a registered sex offender. He claims he can't even get an interview at EVAS, which means there can't possibly be a shortage of experienced pilots.
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180
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by 180 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:47 am

Nicky Nick’s twin maybe?
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tps8903
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by tps8903 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:18 am

Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:38 am
180 wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:09 am
It wasn’t that long ago that you had to spend 5 to 10 years in the bush doing hard time before you had the time and relevant experience to get into Westjet. Now you can slide into Encore with a thousand hours of day VFR Caravan time.

It wasn’t that long ago that you needed 3,000 hours to sit left seat in a Navajo, 5,000 hours to sit left seat in a King Air, 8,000 hours to sit left seat in a Dash 8, and 10,000 hours to sit right seat in a 737.

And still people are whining about 5 or 6 years at Encore before flowing to Mainline? It’s never been easier!

Consider yourselves lucky to be a Q400 FO with 1,000 hours, a Q400 CA with 2,500 hours, and then a 737 FO with 5,000 hours, all the while living in civilization.

God forbid you have to sit in a Q400 for 5 or 6 years, pretty much straight out of flight school, before you get “your” jet.
It's still hard to get into encore. 6000+ hr seasoned king air captain waiting for call.
Send me a PM with your info. I'll call the People Department and check in on your application.
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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by doiwannabeapilot » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:14 pm

tps8903 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:53 pm
yvrpilot82 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:49 am
How do you figure 5 years to flow to mainline? 600 pilots at Encore. That would involve Encore flowing 120 a year. At the current 50% flow that means WJ would have to hire 240 pilots a year for the next 5 years.
I'm not trying to sound pessimistic, but I don't think that type of growth is on the horizon.
Hiring is starting again in April. I asked management for a friend who is waiting.

Current flow as of last week is 3 years and 1 month.

I have been keeping tabs on attrition at Encore by crossing names of the list at Encore as the lists are updated and comparing it with flow. As it stands the list moves 15 names a month between flow to Encore, Swoop, other airlines and differing bids. Granted any and all of those deferred folks could Flow at any point slowing the list down.

Using the ACTUAL numbers and not taking into account growth, the current flow time for a new hire will be approximately 2 years and 11 months by time their number is called for mainline. Its a one year wait for Swoop (internal rule) if you should want to work there. In reality the Encore list will be exhausted for Swoop flow by the next bid which means you can go as soon as the company lets you.

Economies change however, but in the last year those are the numbers.
I think the 5+ years flow is more realistic. 80 pilots flowed in 2017. I believe it was less in 2018. It will likely be the same or less in 2019.
I would go with 70 pilots per year.....equals well over 5 years.
As the previous poster said you should thank your lucky stars to be rhs in a Q400 with 1000 hours. And still thankful to flow in the 5-8 years.
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by JBI » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:41 pm

doiwannabeapilot wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:14 pm

I think the 5+ years flow is more realistic. 80 pilots flowed in 2017. I believe it was less in 2018. It will likely be the same or less in 2019.
I would go with 70 pilots per year.....equals well over 5 years.
As the previous poster said you should thank your lucky stars to be rhs in a Q400 with 1000 hours. And still thankful to flow in the 5-8 years.
I don't think there is anyone who feels they aren't 'lucky' to be flying a Q400 with 1000 hours - at least no one that I've met. All the lower time hires that I've met are very happy with the opportunities that are available to them right now. Most also recognize that the industry hasn't seen anything like this in years. I flew with a 26 year old Q Captain recently. Excellent pilot and person. He's worked extremely hard to get where he is, but also knows how lucky he is to be in that position at that age.

The question, however, isn't whether someone is lucky, but whether 1- the right information is being provided to applicants and, 2- whether Encore is the best choice for someone.

I think things are much better now (though there is always room for improvement like most places of work) but over a year ago I wrote a post suggesting that folks consider all their options because of reports that there were a number of new hires with unrealistically optimistic views of how quickly they would be flowing to mainline. I was worried that the unrealistic expectations were going to be setting up individuals and Encore/WJ for a lot of disappointment.

How long it will take to flow to mainline and, in another thread, how long it will take to upgrade at mainline for OTS hires are all very relevant discussions to have as to whether WJ/Encore or somewhere else is the best option for a particular individual.

Pilots by their nature love certainty. But at the end of the day taking a regional job at the moment is really more of an educated guess that a specific calculation. A year ago I would never have guessed that Georgian pilots would soon be joining Jazz with some sort of DOH agreement. At AC, there has been lots of hiring, but how long will that last? And what will life be like for new hires 3 years from now as compared to now? If WJ's growth is relatively slow for the next few years but they then decide to pick up the options on their 787s just as their first round of retirements start happening will it once again become the most coveted pilot job in Canada and, even so, will that make up for the relatively slow growth at the moment?
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by Hangry » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:14 pm

JBI wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:41 pm
doiwannabeapilot wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:14 pm

I think the 5+ years flow is more realistic. 80 pilots flowed in 2017. I believe it was less in 2018. It will likely be the same or less in 2019.
I would go with 70 pilots per year.....equals well over 5 years.
As the previous poster said you should thank your lucky stars to be rhs in a Q400 with 1000 hours. And still thankful to flow in the 5-8 years.
I don't think there is anyone who feels they aren't 'lucky' to be flying a Q400 with 1000 hours - at least no one that I've met. All the lower time hires that I've met are very happy with the opportunities that are available to them right now. Most also recognize that the industry hasn't seen anything like this in years. I flew with a 26 year old Q Captain recently. Excellent pilot and person. He's worked extremely hard to get where he is, but also knows how lucky he is to be in that position at that age.

The question, however, isn't whether someone is lucky, but whether 1- the right information is being provided to applicants and, 2- whether Encore is the best choice for someone.

I think things are much better now (though there is always room for improvement like most places of work) but over a year ago I wrote a post suggesting that folks consider all their options because of reports that there were a number of new hires with unrealistically optimistic views of how quickly they would be flowing to mainline. I was worried that the unrealistic expectations were going to be setting up individuals and Encore/WJ for a lot of disappointment.

How long it will take to flow to mainline and, in another thread, how long it will take to upgrade at mainline for OTS hires are all very relevant discussions to have as to whether WJ/Encore or somewhere else is the best option for a particular individual.

Pilots by their nature love certainty. But at the end of the day taking a regional job at the moment is really more of an educated guess that a specific calculation. A year ago I would never have guessed that Georgian pilots would soon be joining Jazz with some sort of DOH agreement. At AC, there has been lots of hiring, but how long will that last? And what will life be like for new hires 3 years from now as compared to now? If WJ's growth is relatively slow for the next few years but they then decide to pick up the options on their 787s just as their first round of retirements start happening will it once again become the most coveted pilot job in Canada and, even so, will that make up for the relatively slow growth at the moment?
When was WJ the most coveted job in Canada?
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by SPR » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:11 pm

Hangry wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:14 pm
When was WJ the most coveted job in Canada?
Back when AC was a basket-case that took concessions from its pilots just to keep its head above water, when JetsGo went under and took the pilots' up-front bonds with it, when Sunwing laid off half of its pilots every summer and outsourced a bunch of their jobs to Europeans; when all that was going on, WestJet was consistently profitable and growing. That was barely over a decade ago, and people who have only been in the industry during the boom of the last few years don't really appreciate what that kind of stability means.
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by Yieldermatik » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:25 am

SPR wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:11 pm
Hangry wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:14 pm
When was WJ the most coveted job in Canada?
Back when AC was a basket-case that took concessions from its pilots just to keep its head above water, when JetsGo went under and took the pilots' up-front bonds with it, when Sunwing laid off half of its pilots every summer and outsourced a bunch of their jobs to Europeans; when all that was going on, WestJet was consistently profitable and growing. That was barely over a decade ago, and people who have only been in the industry during the boom of the last few years don't really appreciate what that kind of stability means.
+1
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by Hangry » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:28 am

I see. I wonder how all the ex AC pilots are enjoying WJ today.
Oh wait. That never happened.
:roll:
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by JBI » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:27 am

Hangry wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:28 am
I see. I wonder how all the ex AC pilots are enjoying WJ today.
Oh wait. That never happened.
:roll:
I don't have specific stats (and I don't feel the need to expend any energy to find such information to rebut a quasi-troll), but during the mid 00s there were plenty of "Thinking about moving from AC to WJ" posts on AvCanada.

Air Canada was in the midst of two bankruptcies and layoffs, there was labour strife between the ex-Canadi<n pilots and original AC pilots (in addition to the ongoing Air Ontario v. Air Canada lawsuit), JetsGo was a gong-show, Canada 3000 had gone under, SkyService and Transat were an ok option but had a very limited fleet (and Transat in particular wanted French language skills for a time), CanJet was always struggling (and laid off and rehired pilots), Zoom and HMY (later Harmony) looked like they could be an option but couldn't quite get traction and Sunwing was just starting out in 2005.

So further to the spirit of my post above, it's good to look at all your options. WestJet was an amazing option in the mid-00's. Right now AC is an amazing option. We'll see what happens in the next 10-15 years.
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by Freeport_Flyer » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:20 am

Thread course correction:
Original Post:
Citationdriver wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:14 pm
Anybody know if Encore will be still hiring in the first part of 2019? Are they still short Drivers? Noticed they haven't posted positions. Mainline has a posting up for mainline and Swoop.
Last rumor was hiring to start again in April, that's in 12 days, also the end of Q1... Anyone?
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by SPR » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:14 pm

Hangry wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:28 am
I see. I wonder how all the ex AC pilots are enjoying WJ today.
Oh wait. That never happened.
:roll:
Like I said, if you weren't just a kid and remembered the dark days of the 2000s, you'd know that there should be a lot more factors that go into accepting a job than where you can upgrade the fastest or where you can get into a widebody first. After 9/11, when airlines were shutting down left, right, and centre, and the best a pilot could hope for was to not be laid off, WestJet was profitable. Employees who started there in the early years are millionaires because of how valuable that stock was. Even during the last contact negotiations at Air Canada, when the company had the government declare the pilots to be an essential service, there was an enormous amount of animosity, and talk of leaving AC for WestJet. All it will take is one little decline in revenues, and Calin will take more from the pilots, turning the tables back to where they were.
The question you asked wasn't "How many pilots have left AC for WestJet?", it was "When was WJ the most coveted job in Canada?" The answer is "Up until about 2013". The fact that you don't know anything about the industry prior to 2014 doesn't change that fact.
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Re: Hiring outlook

Post by Hangry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:52 am

SPR wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:14 pm
Hangry wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:28 am
I see. I wonder how all the ex AC pilots are enjoying WJ today.
Oh wait. That never happened.
:roll:
Like I said, if you weren't just a kid and remembered the dark days of the 2000s, you'd know that there should be a lot more factors that go into accepting a job than where you can upgrade the fastest or where you can get into a widebody first. After 9/11, when airlines were shutting down left, right, and centre, and the best a pilot could hope for was to not be laid off, WestJet was profitable. Employees who started there in the early years are millionaires because of how valuable that stock was. Even during the last contact negotiations at Air Canada, when the company had the government declare the pilots to be an essential service, there was an enormous amount of animosity, and talk of leaving AC for WestJet. All it will take is one little decline in revenues, and Calin will take more from the pilots, turning the tables back to where they were.
The question you asked wasn't "How many pilots have left AC for WestJet?", it was "When was WJ the most coveted job in Canada?" The answer is "Up until about 2013". The fact that you don't know anything about the industry prior to 2014 doesn't change that fact.
Blah blah.

I can count on two hands the # of pilots who have ever left AC for WJ.

That’s since WJ’s inception.

:goodman:
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