Encore contract negotiations

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

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Rezy
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Rezy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:30 pm

DaveP wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:53 pm
I think the salary top up is awesome! I don’t know if any other regional that does that. I also like the 60% flow. We always try and do more than 60% (or even the old 50%) but it moves the bar up.
Agreed. Well done to both parties.
DaveP wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:53 pm

As others mentioned above - yos would be tough being two separate companies (who pays?)...
I’m calling BS here. Swoop has YOS but you already knew that you said so yourself...
DaveP wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:55 pm
The amended and recently clarified Swoop Lou (as per Kaplan) includes years of service for time served at swoop when you upgrade at WJ (are now counted)
So seriously what the heck are you thinking??? There already are 2 different companies with YOS! :roll:
DaveP wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:53 pm
I guess the vote will tell how the Encore folks like it. I think it will attract or grab the attention of potential applicants too.

Congratulations on all the hard work put into this.

Cheers
Dave
Calling you out on BS again. If you truly believed this was a quality agreement that was going to attract potential applicants then there would be a higher flow rate, not 60%. Obviously flow rate needs to be low so that Encore retains qualified crew members because this agreement certainly will not. Although, it may stop some of the bleeding to AC.


Dave, Why should any Encore pilot vote yes to this agreement without YOS when Swoop pilots have it?
Have Swoop pilots contributed more to the group than Encore pilots?

I used to respect a lot of your responses on these forums, but it’s crystal clear that you are a hack peddling nonsense. Give your head a shake.
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cloak
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by cloak » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:43 pm

I think those comments are very emotional and honestly worth editing. Swoop and WestJet are one bargaining unit, Encore is not, simple. In time when wide body program is established opening new markets, Swoop is established guarding the back door, things may look very differently...
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Rezy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:47 pm

cloak wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:43 pm
I think those comments are very emotional and honestly worth editing. Swoop and WestJet are one bargaining unit, Encore is not, simple. In time when wide body program is established opening new markets, Swoop is established guarding the back door, things may look very differently...
There are lots of good arguments for why Encore shouldn’t get YOS but 2 separate companies is ridiculous and laughable which is why I pointed it out as such.
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DaveP
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by DaveP » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:50 pm

Respectfully I think the biggest point you didn’t Debate well is bringing your “one list” seniority over to WJ and not taking a pay cut. Jazz does not do that.

Your comparison is around the 90 percent flow is true but then you are going to 4 years of flat pay - Is that not correct - then follow scales from there?

Personally I would be surprised if Swoop ever went to 30 (Scope) tails as can Encore go to 78. If some want to go early to capitalize on Swoop YOS - that’s up to them or they can flow directly to mainline when they wish - or simply stay at Encore. The choice is theirs.

Good points but I honestly think it’s a pretty neat package.

Cheers
Dave
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cloak
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by cloak » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:52 pm

Perhaps Encore should not have had one list either since no other regionals offer that. That may have inflated expectations...at any rate, as mentioned, Encore does offer a very attractive deal for the young pilots that join it as they do not have to worry about interviewing and such again in their career if they choose to stay with the group with ample options. Good luck.
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Last edited by cloak on Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

DaveP
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by DaveP » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:53 pm

Rezy wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:47 pm
cloak wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:43 pm
I think those comments are very emotional and honestly worth editing. Swoop and WestJet are one bargaining unit, Encore is not, simple. In time when wide body program is established opening new markets, Swoop is established guarding the back door, things may look very differently...
There are lots of good arguments for why Encore shouldn’t get YOS but 2 separate companies is ridiculous and laughable which is why I pointed it out as such.
I get your point too Rez but having come from the Air Ontario common employer bid - I saw that movie before. I don’t think it will happen here at Encore either. Who knows though - maybe next agreement or a successful application is put forth.

WRT swoop and the one company comment above, Swoop was determined to be common bargaining unit. That’s why they are represented by our ALPA folks and the collective agreement. That’s why they have YOS.

In regards to the 60% flow - flow is expensive and sometimes in periods of big growth if you tie a big guaranteed flow to an agreement - the company that you are flowing from can’t keep up. Matching a 60% Jazz flow is a good “industry standard” imho. Clever little caveat in this proposed CA is the way they tied a monetary penalty to flow if it isn’t honored.
Cheers
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Last edited by DaveP on Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

Rezy
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Rezy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:39 pm

Encore One List without YOS is going to be the recipe for complete disaster in a couple of years.
So I guess you’ll get to see the Air Ontario movie again. It makes it difficult for WJ to attract qualified candidates who sit at the bottom of the Encore mountain of seniority numbers. It doesn’t offer enough for OTS qualified pilots to go to Encore, because there are way too many options for other employment.

The best path forward is having one door into WJ group and that is Encore FO after that, let people build their own path through Encore, Swoop, and WJ. Which would then be a true job market competitor with AC. And by that I mean that you can fly long haul, trans border, trans Atlantic or even regional, or... no reserve -something that WJ currently doesn’t offer!
The best way to accomplish one door into WJ is YOS to Encore pilots.

Although Swoop and WJ are one bargaining unit they are still 2 separate companies and WJ will foot the bill for YOS, which was your poor excuse for an explanation.

As I said before this will proabably stop some of the bleeding to AC.
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DaveP
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by DaveP » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:58 pm

Fair enough Rez
You have your take on it and I have mine!
It’s pretty unique and perhaps once we get all the voting out of the way we can re-visit the debate.
Happy Easter!
Dave
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by SPR » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:07 pm

GATRKGA wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:49 pm
Otherwise, 90% guarantee of success from Jazz to AC basically means you have to be a bone head to not get hired in the context of their new pilot mobility agreement that ratified a few months ago.
I may be misunderstanding what you're trying to say here, but the flow rate from Jazz will provide 60% of AC's new hires, with 90% of the applicants from Jazz being accepted. If this TA is ratified, Encore will provide at least 60% of WestJet's new hires, with 100% of the applicants being accepted.
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by JBI » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:59 pm

Rezy wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:39 pm

The best path forward is having one door into WJ group and that is Encore FO after that, let people build their own path through Encore, Swoop, and WJ. Which would then be a true job market competitor with AC. And by that I mean that you can fly long haul, trans border, trans Atlantic or even regional, or... no reserve -something that WJ currently doesn’t offer!
The best way to accomplish one door into WJ is YOS to Encore pilots.

Although Swoop and WJ are one bargaining unit they are still 2 separate companies and WJ will foot the bill for YOS, which was your poor excuse for an explanation.
I would love it if/when all positions at WJ/Swoop/Encore just become position bids with corresponding years of service attached. I actually think that this first CBA with Encore starts down that path. However, your criticisms of DaveP are not justified and your demands are a little out to lunch.

While I know that DaveP is capable of fighting his own battles, he is under NO obligation to provide a detailed analysis of pros and cons of a contract on an internet forum to anonymous internet posters. My understanding is that he had no involvement with the negotiations whatsoever. Because he gave a quick comment re: YOS doesn't mean that this is the sole reason YOS wouldn't work nor is he in any position to need to justify it. In fact, in a unionized environment he's actually very limited to what he can say. It's up to the pilots now. You're welcome to disagree with him, but calling him a hack from an anonymous account is pretty tasteless.

As for your comments on the topics themselves: It's pretty clear that there are distinct differences between WJ/Swoop and Encore in how they are represented under the Canada Labour Code that you don't really understand. I am not for a second defending the messy situation that the company has gotten itself into with respect to the corporate structure and heck, even the new executives have stated that the way their predecessors brought in Swoop was a "disaster". But, Swoop getting YOS (as awarded by an arbitrator) is an entirely different situation than Encore getting YOS not only because of corporate structure and representation by a different union, but also the size of the pilot group, the relative seniority of the pilot group, the pay scales and the cost structure of the individual operations. What Encore pilots vs. Swoop pilots have done for the company has little to do with the reality of what the company can actually afford. Years of Service at Mainline for the Encore Pilots would be roughly the same cost to the company as giving all of them an immediate 75% raise. A 75% raise for 550 pilots is not something ANY airline could reasonably afford.

With respect to flow %'s your arguments simply don't make sense. Again, as an anonymous internet poster you can argue that there should be 98.23% flow and that every Encore pilot should be given a new Tesla when they flow to mainline, but to suggest what DaveP thinks or doesn't think is pretty silly. The flow LOU is actually quite detailed and has been provided to the Encore pilots. Again, there are pros and cons to it. I think it's actually pretty amazing. It guarantees a good rate of flow, incentivizes the company to keep the rate higher, but does provide them flexibility in times of a slowdown. I'll be the first to admit things are not perfect and previously I had concerns that new hires at Encore had an unrealistic view of how quick flow would be, but I will give credit to the company for keeping flow moving well even at times when Encore is slightly short on Captains. Even though right now the Maxs are grounded all the recent ground schools at WJ have been 50% or more from Encore.

Whether this will make Encore a better option than an AC Express carrier really depends. I honestly believe that now Encore could be the best option for some, but Jazz, Porter or other regionals will still be the best option for others.
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by skybaron » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:04 am

Rezy wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:39 pm
Encore One List without YOS is going to be the recipe for complete disaster in a couple of years.
So I guess you’ll get to see the Air Ontario movie again. It makes it difficult for WJ to attract qualified candidates who sit at the bottom of the Encore mountain of seniority numbers. It doesn’t offer enough for OTS qualified pilots to go to Encore, because there are way too many options for other employment.

The best path forward is having one door into WJ group and that is Encore FO after that, let people build their own path through Encore, Swoop, and WJ. Which would then be a true job market competitor with AC. And by that I mean that you can fly long haul, trans border, trans Atlantic or even regional, or... no reserve -something that WJ currently doesn’t offer!
The best way to accomplish one door into WJ is YOS to Encore pilots.

Although Swoop and WJ are one bargaining unit they are still 2 separate companies and WJ will foot the bill for YOS, which was your poor excuse for an explanation.


As I said before this will proabably stop some of the bleeding to AC.
Nailed it!
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Rezy » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:55 pm

JBI wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:59 pm
Rezy wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:39 pm

The best path forward is having one door into WJ group and that is Encore FO after that, let people build their own path through Encore, Swoop, and WJ. Which would then be a true job market competitor with AC. And by that I mean that you can fly long haul, trans border, trans Atlantic or even regional, or... no reserve -something that WJ currently doesn’t offer!
The best way to accomplish one door into WJ is YOS to Encore pilots.

Although Swoop and WJ are one bargaining unit they are still 2 separate companies and WJ will foot the bill for YOS, which was your poor excuse for an explanation.
I would love it if/when all positions at WJ/Swoop/Encore just become position bids with corresponding years of service attached. I actually think that this first CBA with Encore starts down that path. However, your criticisms of DaveP are not justified and your demands are a little out to lunch.

While I know that DaveP is capable of fighting his own battles, he is under NO obligation to provide a detailed analysis of pros and cons of a contract on an internet forum to anonymous internet posters. My understanding is that he had no involvement with the negotiations whatsoever. Because he gave a quick comment re: YOS doesn't mean that this is the sole reason YOS wouldn't work nor is he in any position to need to justify it. In fact, in a unionized environment he's actually very limited to what he can say. It's up to the pilots now. You're welcome to disagree with him, but calling him a hack from an anonymous account is pretty tasteless.

As for your comments on the topics themselves: It's pretty clear that there are distinct differences between WJ/Swoop and Encore in how they are represented under the Canada Labour Code that you don't really understand. I am not for a second defending the messy situation that the company has gotten itself into with respect to the corporate structure and heck, even the new executives have stated that the way their predecessors brought in Swoop was a "disaster". But, Swoop getting YOS (as awarded by an arbitrator) is an entirely different situation than Encore getting YOS not only because of corporate structure and representation by a different union, but also the size of the pilot group, the relative seniority of the pilot group, the pay scales and the cost structure of the individual operations. What Encore pilots vs. Swoop pilots have done for the company has little to do with the reality of what the company can actually afford. Years of Service at Mainline for the Encore Pilots would be roughly the same cost to the company as giving all of them an immediate 75% raise. A 75% raise for 550 pilots is not something ANY airline could reasonably afford.

With respect to flow %'s your arguments simply don't make sense. Again, as an anonymous internet poster you can argue that there should be 98.23% flow and that every Encore pilot should be given a new Tesla when they flow to mainline, but to suggest what DaveP thinks or doesn't think is pretty silly. The flow LOU is actually quite detailed and has been provided to the Encore pilots. Again, there are pros and cons to it. I think it's actually pretty amazing. It guarantees a good rate of flow, incentivizes the company to keep the rate higher, but does provide them flexibility in times of a slowdown. I'll be the first to admit things are not perfect and previously I had concerns that new hires at Encore had an unrealistic view of how quick flow would be, but I will give credit to the company for keeping flow moving well even at times when Encore is slightly short on Captains. Even though right now the Maxs are grounded all the recent ground schools at WJ have been 50% or more from Encore.

Whether this will make Encore a better option than an AC Express carrier really depends. I honestly believe that now Encore could be the best option for some, but Jazz, Porter or other regionals will still be the best option for others.
I’m not making demands, just presenting my opinion. Which happens to coincide with some of the management rhetoric going on when Encore was presented to the WJPA. Specifically, Encore would be the only way into WJ.

This is the debunk argument that I showed has inherent hypocrisy:

YOS shouldn’t be granted because with 2 separate companies it’s complicated on who pays the bills.

Anyone pushing that argument is a hack. I called him that because it’s true. The argument is hypocritical in nature and presenting it demonstrates that the desire to win (no YOS) is more important than the truth or personal convictions.

Flow rate has always been predicated on how many pilots Encore can lose. It was suggested that this agreement would bring more qualified OTS pilots to Encore. If anyone truly believed that this agreement would bring in more qualified OTS then flow should be higher than 60%. Because if Encore is now getting more qualified applicants it can afford to lose a higher % to flow and not stay at Encore because of the inexperience.
Therefore, If this agreement was good enough that Encore was going to attract experienced pilots, then flow should easily attain 100%.

I’m well aware of HOW Swoop got YOS, I was asking if Encore should because Swoop does.
The inherent answer so far that I’m reading between the lines is, Swoop shouldn’t have got YOS, but they did.
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by cloak » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:21 am

JBI, good post!

In 6 short years Encore has matured to present an attractive opportunity - in many aspects better than more established airlines - especially for the younger pilots that seem to be coming through its doors. And it seems to do it now without pricing in the "one list", which is great. It is also the only airline in Canada that provides a seamless transition without further interview process (to WestJet/Swoop).
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by mel gibson » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:15 am

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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by skybaron » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:52 pm

mel gibson wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:15 am
https://careers.aircanada.com/

:lol: :prayer:

Exactly!
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by snowcone » Sat May 04, 2019 11:38 am

Max 16 hr duty day on reserve is an improvement! WTF
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by joefo » Sat May 04, 2019 12:15 pm

snowcone wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 11:38 am
Max 16 hr duty day on reserve is an improvement! WTF
How did you possibly interpret that as a 16 hour duty day..?
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Yycjetdriver » Sat May 04, 2019 12:20 pm

snowcone wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 11:38 am
Max 16 hr duty day on reserve is an improvement! WTF
Compared to whose better reserve rules? Jazz’s where they could call you and give you a combined total of on call and flying of 20 hours. Or our “best” airline spot where their reserve rules are so archaic and slave like it’s not even worth going into the details.
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by bob99 » Sat May 04, 2019 12:25 pm

snowcone wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 11:38 am
Max 16 hr duty day on reserve is an improvement! WTF
Max duty day is 14 hours. However, your duty day must end no more than 16 hours from the start of the callout window. So if your callout window starts at 0330, then whether they call you at 0330 or 1330 the latest they can schedule you to finish is 1930. There's no 16 hour duty days.
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by snowcone » Sat May 04, 2019 2:58 pm

bob99 wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 12:25 pm
snowcone wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 11:38 am
Max 16 hr duty day on reserve is an improvement! WTF
Max duty day is 14 hours. However, your duty day must end no more than 16 hours from the start of the callout window. So if your callout window starts at 0330, then whether they call you at 0330 or 1330 the latest they can schedule you to finish is 1930. There's no 16 hour duty days.
That seems more appropriate.
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Rowdy » Sat May 04, 2019 6:28 pm

Thats pretty decent actually. I've had two instances where I've been called RIGHT before the end of my call out period and flown to the 20hr max from the start of the callout period (although well inside a 14hr duty day). 16 would be much more civil.
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by DaveP » Tue May 07, 2019 2:28 pm

Happy for the Encore guys and gals! I think it's a great starting agreement!
Well done.
Dave
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by skybaron » Tue May 07, 2019 2:53 pm

DaveP wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 2:28 pm
Happy for the Encore guys and gals! I think it's a great starting agreement!
Well done.
Dave
I believe that many Encore people voted this contract in because it’s somehow tied to the main seniority list. But, from what I understand, is that the seniority list is dependant on what the WJ Pilots vote? So the TA may very well work out for Encore, or, it could be utterly useless if they lose their slots on the seniority list. When is the seniority list vote due?
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by JBI » Tue May 07, 2019 7:55 pm

skybaron wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 2:53 pm
DaveP wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 2:28 pm
Happy for the Encore guys and gals! I think it's a great starting agreement!
Well done.
Dave
I believe that many Encore people voted this contract in because it’s somehow tied to the main seniority list. But, from what I understand, is that the seniority list is dependant on what the WJ Pilots vote? So the TA may very well work out for Encore, or, it could be utterly useless if they lose their slots on the seniority list. When is the seniority list vote due?
Nope. The Encore pilots were well aware that the Seniority LOA was separate from the Tentative Agreement.

Regardless of the One List issue, it's a good initial CBA - definitely not 'utterly useless'. I think it's fair to say that most Encore pilots are hoping common sense prevails and the mainline pilots vote yes on the One List LOA. Vote closes May 14th.
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Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by snowcone » Fri May 10, 2019 8:01 pm

cloak wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:12 am
Hangry wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:13 am
cloak wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:18 am
Just to keep things in perspective though, Jazz and Sky regional pilots not only don't have YOS, but also no guaranteed flow...perspective!
True. Except Jazz and Sky pilots will most likely end up at AC, Not WJ. AC where pay and progression are assured.

WJ where you get to aspire to seat right seat forever. How long is it going to take someone to reach top payscale at mainline? Or you could flow to Swoop I guess. Sounds really fun over there.
No, not really! Firstly pilots on Jazz PML (not to mention Sky) have to INTERVIEW again at Air Canada; some may be rejected. Secondly, they have to start over at AC and then will have YOS there, whereas at Encore they DON'T INTERVIEW again, will keep their vacation, and now have some pay protection. And Swoop counts towards YOS. Seems that Encore offers a pretty attractive deal in its first contract...
Encore/west jet = same company

Air canada / jazz, sky etc = totally different companies
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