MOA2

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

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kiaszceski
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Re: MOA2

Post by kiaszceski »

Stratopaused wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:39 am but you'll be eliminating the bump-down language that was a sticking point with the PTA in the first place. You'll prevent anyone who hasn't officially moved to Encore from bumping, resulting in their layoffs, and allow the company to recall 100% of Encore pilots without bringing back a single WestJet or Swoop pilot. In the future, management will be able to lay off every jet pilot before touching a single Encore pilot, and everyone already working here retains our positions on the One List.
Finally someone wise enough :smt057
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DirtyDashDriver
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Re: MOA2

Post by DirtyDashDriver »

Let's take the foot off the brake here. No one wants to sewer a mainline pilot or voted for reduced wages to stop mainline pilots from bumping down. I want mainline pilots to be able to bump down with decent conditions as that's what I voted for with the PTA in order to be able to move up in good times, so this was not some sneak attack or an attempt to stop bump downs. That never entered my mind when completing the survey that helped to give the MEC a clear mandate.

There are two key differences between a lay-off at mainline and Encore. At mainline, you are awarded lay-off pay. It may be small, but it's something. Encore pilots are not provided any form of lay-off pay protection in our contract. Second, mainline pilots can bump Encore pilots, but Encore pilots cannot then bump a more junior mainline pilot should such a situation arise. Ergo, any lay-off for an Encore pilot is straight to the street without passing go or the knowledge they may still get to keep a job.

Many Encore pilots are in their first or second job and possibly their first downturn. They're scared. They don't know that this will work out in two, three, or four years. They can't afford the $300 to cancel their TV package or pay out the second mobile phone. They're literally and figuratively screwed in a lay-off situation. So they do what anyone who feels backed into a corner does, they look at their own survival and vote to keep their job above all else.

That's the so-called enemy you are targeting right now. Not a seasoned pilot with maybe a small amount of cash savings to sit on, but a young, scared man or woman who is wondering how to tell their young wife or husband they can no longer pay the rent or the mortgage; A person who has heard the word 'destitute,' and is now wondering if it will apply to them in a month.

Woe is us, perhaps, but mainline pilots saying this was an attempt of Encore pilots to flank their mainline brothers and sisters out of the PTA is nonsense. It was an attempt to stave off financial ruin for a month.

As far as a mainline pilot making less than an Encore pilot because of the REIP adjustment, that's the company actually following a contract for a change. They'd be in violation otherwise. The Encore pilot is not accruing YOS at mainline, so what the Encore pilot makes in the short term, the mainline pilot makes in the long term.

Should it have been removed to make for a more level playing field? Perhaps, but it certainly wasn't an intentional hit to stop someone from coming down. I'd certainly be game for asking the MEC to go back and see what we can't do for the mainline pilots who bump, but not if you're going to continue to kick a bunch of people who are already down.
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m9:24
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Re: MOA2

Post by m9:24 »

Disregard
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Last edited by m9:24 on Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
jjj
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Re: MOA2

Post by jjj »

A lot of misunderstanding on this thread.

All the mainline guys wanted was the deal they fought for.

There is no entitlement and no one is spoiled. Lots of the jet guys were Encore guys. All of us pulling in the same direction.

Among other things - Encore gets a seniority spot on a list and the Jet guys get some whipsaw protection. Again - everyone pulling in the same direction.

An Encore guy spends years on the Dash then when he comes up to mainline he gets a shot at his old job in a down bid situation. There is some fairness in that I think.

Lots of guys taking a lay off and even the Jet guys are getting shafted through various scenarios affected by things like how the company wants to handle recalls.

Contrary to the above - no jet guys expected to fly a Dash at their previous wages. They wanted the deal that was on the table - that is all.

Take care of yourselves and your families and your friends.

JJJ
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George Taylor
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Re: MOA2

Post by George Taylor »

This MOA is going to high light unintended consequences. Moving the goal posts at the 11th hour. Fair enough to look out for your own. We’ll see how the majority feels when the dust settles.
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Bede
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Re: MOA2

Post by Bede »

sstaurus wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:55 am Come on guys. I have a real hard time believing that the goal of the Encore MEC was to ‘pee in the pool’ and make it as unappealing as possible for mainline guys to want the job. Are they a bunch of evil villains sitting around twisting their moustaches in delight at the result of this agreement? This strikes me more as a bunch of angry senior mainline guys wanting to lash out at the world any way they can.. yet again, pilots can’t play nice.
I don't think that the Encore MEC are evil villains. They were in a difficult position and looked out for their members first, which is their right. Unfortunately it came at the expense of WJ pilots bumping down. By their actions, the Encore MEC and WJ effectively repudiated the PTA. All that has to happen is the WJ MEC accept the repudiation and we go our separate ways. No need to cancel the PTA and lock in every one's seniority.

It's really too bad. I was the PTA's biggest supporter, but it has to go both ways.
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citizenbanana
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Re: MOA2

Post by citizenbanana »

And this is why different bargaining units shouldn't share a seniority list. There is a reason nobody else does it this way.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: MOA2

Post by Yycjetdriver »

citizenbanana wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:29 pm And this is why different bargaining units shouldn't share a seniority list. There is a reason nobody else does it this way.
+1
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JoeyBarton
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Re: MOA2

Post by JoeyBarton »

A mainline guy bumping down to Encore has a pay or block protection or falls right into the 50h CBA at encore?
If so this shows why your PTA has never been a good idea with 2 different bargaining units...
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FlyAlberta
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Re: MOA2

Post by FlyAlberta »

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ALPApolicy
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Re: MOA2

Post by ALPApolicy »

You never go wrong if you follow ALPA policy. Selling the seniority of your own bargaining unit members, regardless of the perceived morality of your intentions, was always going to end up somewhere undesirable.

No one saw mass layoffs looming when the PTA vote was conducted a mere FOUR MONTHS AGO! But that’s why ALPA has had a policy in place for so many years that specifies that seniority is based on date of hire at the company you are working at.

So now we see the creation of a “B” Scale at Encore. All employees are not equal. OTS Encore employees are more equal than WJ pilots bumping into Encore (per the MOA 2 pay provisions) in accordance with the PTA. That is really funny because Encore pilots flowing into WJ are more equal than OTS WJ pilots (per their super-seniority) in accordance with the One List.

Well done.
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
Impact
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Re: MOA2

Post by Impact »

Well, to all those who pushed for and supported the one list concept, I hate to say "I told you so", but.......
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FlyingMonkey
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Re: MOA2

Post by FlyingMonkey »

If mainline pilots do not like the WAWCON at Encore and the MOA2, they are not forced into a position at Encore. So take the layoff and go on EI. Simple as that. The Encore MEC fought and kept 150 more Encore positions available which are all going to Mainline pilots IF they want them. Nobody is forcing you into Encore! I’m going to lose my job at Encore to a 737 pilot, that’s what I agreed to and I’m not going to piss and moan about it because that’s what is fair. What were you 737 pilots expecting? The same WAWCON as the 737 when you bump down to Encore?

I’m sure your MEC is doing their best to mitigate as many layoffs as they can. Our MEC at Encore did the same, job well done.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: MOA2

Post by Yycjetdriver »

FlyingMonkey wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:52 am If mainline pilots do not like the WAWCON at Encore and the MOA2, they are not forced into a position at Encore. So take the layoff and go on EI. Simple as that. The Encore MEC fought and kept 150 more Encore positions available which are all going to Mainline pilots IF they want them. Nobody is forcing you into Encore! I’m going to lose my job at Encore to a 737 pilot, that’s what I agreed to and I’m not going to piss and moan about it because that’s what is fair. What were you 737 pilots expecting? The same WAWCON as the 737 when you bump down to Encore?

I’m sure your MEC is doing their best to mitigate as many layoffs as they can. Our MEC at Encore did the same, job well done.
When has any mainline pilot said they expect mainline wawcon when bumping into Encore??

There’s a big difference between agreeing to a PTA with bump down provisions then when about to exercise those provisions the group on the other end of the agreement changes the conditions and you have no say or ability to do anything about it.
It’s a dumb comment to insist mainline pilots expected to have mainline wages, they just didn’t expect the significant cut in WAWCON to be significantly cut further at the last minute.
Job not well done, the jobs saved have become terrible and they most likely lost their biggest benefit on top of that (PTA).
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altiplano
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Re: MOA2

Post by altiplano »

Perhaps best thing could be for pilots to structure the reduction/moves to trigger every course possible. Certainly slows the layoffs and costs the company money and productivity.

Perhaps they rethink the numbers when they see what 100s of courses down and back are going to take?
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George Taylor
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Re: MOA2

Post by George Taylor »

No one is expecting 737 wages in the Dash. Don’t be stupid. If you can’t see changing the playing field so late in the game, and making the conditions so unattractive is not bargaining in good faith, well I can’t debate with you. The unintended consequence of protecting your own will be the death of the PTA.
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FlyingMonkey
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Re: MOA2

Post by FlyingMonkey »

Look what is happening around you?? Are you blind. Airlines are crumbling around the world.
What kind of deal did you expect? You think you can get water from a stone? The idea that these 150 extra jobs at Encore is a ploy or a tactic by the company to undermine the pilot group is just ridiculous. You know how much it’s going to cost the company to train everyone on the Q?? You think the company wants/need to be spending money on training right now?? Use your brain and step back and look at this from a larger scope.
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Impact
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Re: MOA2

Post by Impact »

George, as much as I agree with you, the concept of "unintentional consequences" doesn't apply in this case. One could absolutely see where this was heading. There were some of us that were screaming that the one list wouldn't work. You need to ask yourselves, through honest self reflection, why you decided not to listen to the people who've went through a downturn or two in their lives, and have seen how pilots act when self preservation is the only thing on ones mind.

How much time, effort, money, and resources have been poured into this f***ing debacle we call "the one list"? Could have just had Encore flow to BOTL of mainline, no bump down, and be done with it. Simple. Do the same thing that every other carrier has done for decades.

Now, you guys will spend the next 5 years bitching about who got screwed in the Covid downturn. Enjoy. :goodman:
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: MOA2

Post by Yycjetdriver »

FlyingMonkey wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:32 am Look what is happening around you?? Are you blind. Airlines are crumbling around the world.
What kind of deal did you expect? You think you can get water from a stone? The idea that these 150 extra jobs at Encore is a ploy or a tactic by the company to undermine the pilot group is just ridiculous. You know how much it’s going to cost the company to train everyone on the Q?? You think the company wants/need to be spending money on training right now?? Use your brain and step back and look at this from a larger scope.
It doesn’t matter if training all new Q pilots is what the company needs/wants, its what they negotiated in order to help them recruit pilots while being able get away with terrible WAWCON’s for years at Encore. Put down the koolaid.
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DirtyDashDriver
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Re: MOA2

Post by DirtyDashDriver »

You know how much it’s going to cost the company to train everyone on the Q?? You think the company wants/need to be spending money on training right now?? Use your brain and step back and look at this from a larger scope.
No, the company doesn't want to spend money on training right now, but that is exactly what was agreed to in the PTA. It was agreed that we Encore guys get to flow up and that the mainline guys get to bump down. The cost of a bump down was factored into the agreement by not having a long-term pay scale and other considerations. I don't consider the WACON's to be horrific at Encore, but they are less than our comparators because of the PTA.
You need to ask yourselves, through honest self reflection, why you decided not to listen to the people who've went through a downturn or two in their lives
Lot's of Encore pilots are at Encore because of previous downturns. Lot's of mainline pilots are near the bottom of the list for the same reason. I've been through two or three downturns and saw value in the PTA from my perspective and that of a mainline pilot. My self-reflection says that it's not the PTA that was the problem, but that there were not enough protections built-in for both bargaining units regarding flow and bump downs.
Could have just had Encore flow to BOTL of mainline, no bump down, and be done with it.
Could have, but that's well-worn ground that isn't going to be easily fixed as I would consider it likely that cancelling the PTA would require that all pilots keep their current spot, so it won't help in the short-to-medium term.

The problem with the one list is not necessarily that it exists, but that both bargaining units can change the working and pay conditions of pilots affected at the other without appropriate input from the other group. In this case, mainline pilots now have to accept lower WACON's to come to Encore, which is unacceptable, despite understanding why it likely happened. The reverse case, however unlikely, is possible too.

The fix is not to cancel the PTA, as that is ultimately what saves a few mainline jobs right now and will again when this all happens in another 10 to 12 years. Perhaps it's to allow both bargaining units a say in their collective future with flows and bump downs by either diluting certain votes (i.e., those affecting wages) with weighted input from the other bargaining unit or by merging the MEC's.
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