Encore Recalls

[ALPApolicy]

Rumour has it a grievance was filed by the mainline union today. I haven’t seen it personally but have heard the point of it was recalls being made to encore from furloughed encore pilots only, which violates bumping rights of a combined seniority list. Guess your prediction was wrong.

Whoa. Rumour of a grievance filed, or even the factual occurrence of a grievance filed is not evidence that the policy will be reversed or altered. Therefore, the prediction made is not currently wrong. It may be, but not yet.

[Yycjetdriver]

Rumour has it a grievance was filed by the mainline union today. I haven’t seen it personally but have heard the point of it was recalls being made to encore from furloughed encore pilots only, which violates bumping rights of a combined seniority list. Guess your prediction was wrong.

Whoa. Rumour of a grievance filed, or even the factual occurrence of a grievance filed is not evidence that the policy will be reversed or altered. Therefore, the prediction made is not currently wrong. It may be, but not yet.

Well it’s certainly a long way from nothing being done or possible. Thanks for your input though....

[ALPApolicy]

Just keeping things real. I never was a fan of the PTA or the One List post-certification. That said, I hope that whatever the PTA states is adhered to by all parties.

[lostaviator]

I don't know who has made more money off of us... ALPA or the arbitrator. This CA is the Christmas present that just keeps giving... (to him).

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

I’m not sure why the mainline guys feel screwed. The agreement is quite simple.

There is a pilot transfer agreement that states that an Encore pilot can move up into mainline and that a mainline pilot can bump down into Encore if they are laid off at mainline.

At this point, we’re not being governed by the PTA, but instead the recall language that is in the Encore TA.

A mainline pilot who was laid off and did not bump into Encore are not Encore pilots and are not governed by the Encore TA.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love a single list with biddable positions across all of WestJet, but that is not what we have. Encorians were shown that mainline pilots overwhelmingly want to use Encore as a backup but don’t care for the (at the time of the vote) current Encore pilot.

I’m sorry, but we’ll all have our time to be recalled soon enough. Until then, I will keep looking for a second job so that I can afford rent and food.

[Yycjetdriver]

I’m not sure why the mainline guys feel screwed. The agreement is quite simple.

There is a pilot transfer agreement that states that an Encore pilot can move up into mainline and that a mainline pilot can bump down into Encore if they are laid off at mainline.

At this point, we’re not being governed by the PTA, but instead the recall language that is in the Encore TA.

A mainline pilot who was laid off and did not bump into Encore are not Encore pilots and are not governed by the Encore TA.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love a single list with biddable positions across all of WestJet, but that is not what we have. Encorians were shown that mainline pilots overwhelmingly want to use Encore as a backup but don’t care for the (at the time of the vote) current Encore pilot.

I’m sorry, but we’ll all have our time to be recalled soon enough. Until then, I will keep looking for a second job so that I can afford rent and food.

Sure the pilots being recalled are governed by the Encore collective agreement, however the PTA should still allow a mainline pilot to then bump that encore pilot out of the spot if he/she chooses.
I have seen a copy of the grievance, the facts it points out are with the PTA a mainline pilot facing a furlough will have the right to bump into encore/swoop if his/her seniority will allow. At the time of reductions there was mainline pilots whose seniority did not allow for this, now with the recalls it does. There is nothing in the PTA in regards to it being a one time deal.
Both groups voted in this PTA, the encore pilots wanted it for the benefits it provided them, well this bump and flush aspect of the PTA is one of the few benefits the mainline pilots got for voting yes. The company offered it probably thinking they wouldn’t have significant layoffs in the near future or ever, that’s obviously not the case. Now because they would need to fork out the $ for initials on all those mainline pilots, they’re not honouring the PTA as it should be.
The company benefitted from the PTA(pilot retention/recruitment), the encore Pilots benefitted from the PTA, you can’t complain now because you don’t like the downside to the PTA. I wouldn’t worry if I was those recalled encore pilots though, let’s be honest the company is gonna to do what they do best, not give a rat ass about the pilots and let every little issue go to arbitration.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

I’m not sure why the mainline guys feel screwed. The agreement is quite simple.

There is a pilot transfer agreement that states that an Encore pilot can move up into mainline and that a mainline pilot can bump down into Encore if they are laid off at mainline.

At this point, we’re not being governed by the PTA, but instead the recall language that is in the Encore TA.

A mainline pilot who was laid off and did not bump into Encore are not Encore pilots and are not governed by the Encore TA.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love a single list with biddable positions across all of WestJet, but that is not what we have. Encorians were shown that mainline pilots overwhelmingly want to use Encore as a backup but don’t care for the (at the time of the vote) current Encore pilot.

I’m sorry, but we’ll all have our time to be recalled soon enough. Until then, I will keep looking for a second job so that I can afford rent and food.

Sure the pilots being recalled are governed by the Encore collective agreement, however the PTA should still allow a mainline pilot to then bump that encore pilot out of the spot if he/she chooses.
I have seen a copy of the grievance, the facts it points out are with the PTA a mainline pilot facing a furlough will have the right to bump into encore/swoop if his/her seniority will allow. At the time of reductions there was mainline pilots whose seniority did not allow for this, now with the recalls it does. There is nothing in the PTA in regards to it being a one time deal.
Both groups voted in this PTA, the encore pilots wanted it for the benefits it provided them, well this bump and flush aspect of the PTA is one of the few benefits the mainline pilots got for voting yes. The company offered it probably thinking they wouldn’t have significant layoffs in the near future or ever, that’s obviously not the case. Now because they would need to fork out the $ for initials on all those mainline pilots, they’re not honouring the PTA as it should be.
The company benefitted from the PTA(pilot retention/recruitment), the encore Pilots benefitted from the PTA, you can’t complain now because you don’t like the downside to the PTA. I wouldn’t worry if I was those recalled encore pilots though, let’s be honest the company is gonna to do what they do best, not give a rat ass about the pilots and let every little issue go to arbitration.

The mainline pilots, Encore pilots, and company all agreed to the PTA.

The PTA does not govern recalls.

It’s a shame that the mainline pilots are upset, but I don’t see them have a leg to stand on. You can argue that you interpreted it differently, but arguing that you are entitled to something because it’s not written against the opposite is silly.

[Yycjetdriver]

I’m not sure why the mainline guys feel screwed. The agreement is quite simple.

There is a pilot transfer agreement that states that an Encore pilot can move up into mainline and that a mainline pilot can bump down into Encore if they are laid off at mainline.

At this point, we’re not being governed by the PTA, but instead the recall language that is in the Encore TA.

A mainline pilot who was laid off and did not bump into Encore are not Encore pilots and are not governed by the Encore TA.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love a single list with biddable positions across all of WestJet, but that is not what we have. Encorians were shown that mainline pilots overwhelmingly want to use Encore as a backup but don’t care for the (at the time of the vote) current Encore pilot.

I’m sorry, but we’ll all have our time to be recalled soon enough. Until then, I will keep looking for a second job so that I can afford rent and food.

Sure the pilots being recalled are governed by the Encore collective agreement, however the PTA should still allow a mainline pilot to then bump that encore pilot out of the spot if he/she chooses.
I have seen a copy of the grievance, the facts it points out are with the PTA a mainline pilot facing a furlough will have the right to bump into encore/swoop if his/her seniority will allow. At the time of reductions there was mainline pilots whose seniority did not allow for this, now with the recalls it does. There is nothing in the PTA in regards to it being a one time deal.
Both groups voted in this PTA, the encore pilots wanted it for the benefits it provided them, well this bump and flush aspect of the PTA is one of the few benefits the mainline pilots got for voting yes. The company offered it probably thinking they wouldn’t have significant layoffs in the near future or ever, that’s obviously not the case. Now because they would need to fork out the $ for initials on all those mainline pilots, they’re not honouring the PTA as it should be.
The company benefitted from the PTA(pilot retention/recruitment), the encore Pilots benefitted from the PTA, you can’t complain now because you don’t like the downside to the PTA. I wouldn’t worry if I was those recalled encore pilots though, let’s be honest the company is gonna to do what they do best, not give a rat ass about the pilots and let every little issue go to arbitration.

The mainline pilots, Encore pilots, and company all agreed to the PTA.

The PTA does not govern recalls.

It’s a shame that the mainline pilots are upset, but I don’t see them have a leg to stand on. You can argue that you interpreted it differently, but arguing that you are entitled to something because it’s not written against the opposite is silly.

I’m not arguing at all and certainly not because of entitlement because it doesn’t affect me. I’m just pointing out the facts brought forward by the grievance.
I get the PTA doesn’t have any language regarding recalls, the who point is now that those positions exist, which they didn’t before it should be mainline pilots bumping into those positions. There’s no encore recalls required.
A complete aside from the grievance, mainline is overstaffed, the company saved themselves costly layoffs off the backs of their pilots in the form of a reduced MMG. A company with a “single list” operating one division with pay cuts and overstaffing while recalling at another division. So this whole recall argument is pointless, management does what they want always have always will.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Let me boil down my point because I don’t think that I conveyed it clearly last time.

In the PTA, it is explicitly stated that “in the event of a recall at WestJet or Swoop”, the WestJet/Swoop collective agreement will apply. It says a very similar thing regarding Encore.

When a pilot is laid off from WestJet/Swoop, they have an opportunity to bump down into Encore. If they cannot hold an Encore position, they become a WestJet/Swoop Furloughed pilot. As a WestJet/Swoop furlough, they retain recall rights to WestJet/Swoop. At no point have they become an Encore pilot or been laid off from Encore.

For clarification, WestJet/Swoop are one bargaining group and Encore is another.

[Yycjetdriver]

Let me boil down my point because I don’t think that I conveyed it clearly last time.

In the PTA, it is explicitly stated that “in the event of a recall at WestJet or Swoop”, the WestJet/Swoop collective agreement will apply. It says a very similar thing regarding Encore.

When a pilot is laid off from WestJet/Swoop, they have an opportunity to bump down into Encore. If they cannot hold an Encore position, they become a WestJet/Swoop Furloughed pilot. As a WestJet/Swoop furlough, they retain recall rights to WestJet/Swoop. At no point have they become an Encore pilot or been laid off from Encore.

For clarification, WestJet/Swoop are one bargaining group and Encore is another.

Yes I get what you were saying the first time and still disagree with you. I’ll state my reason/what the grievance is based on one last time.

A Westjet/Swoop pilot holds the right to bump into Encore in the event of layoffs and based on their seniority. At the time of reductions there were many reduced Swoop/Mainline pilots who were unable to do so and received layoffs.
Now with Additional positions being created at Encore some Mainline/Swoop pilots would in fact be able to bump down into Encore. The Mainline/Swoop MEC is arguing in the grievance those pilots should have to opportunity to exercise their bumping rights, their current status should not effect this, they’ve been reduced from their positions, whether it was now or 6 months ago shouldn’t matter. If they put it out to bid(as they should) it would certainly fall under the PTA bumping rights.
I get you may want what’s best for fellow Encore pilots, and as I said, this whole thing doesn’t affect me, I only want to see the company go about this in the proper way I hate see anything group get screwed over. Heck those furloughed pilots probably would make more on CEWS than as an encore FO, but if that’s what they chose for themselves and their families, they should have that choice.

[Guilden]

Its quite clear in the PTA about bump rights. Jet driver is correct and you are not. Section 8.01 is pretty clear and its under "WestJet or Swoop layoff and recall" I understand Encore pilots are looking out for their own team, but if we keep allowing the company to do whatever it wants with these CA's and PTA's bla bla bla and use this pandemic to bully, we're all screwed. It'll continue onward after this nightmare is over which I can't see and end anytime soon. We need to work together as whole in this industry to not allow our careers to be juggled and tampered with. I sure hope you agree.

[Yycjetdriver]

Its quite clear in the PTA about bump rights. Jet driver is correct and you are not. Section 8.01 is pretty clear and its under "WestJet or Swoop layoff and recall" I understand Encore pilots are looking out for their own team, but if we keep allowing the company to do whatever it wants with these CA's and PTA's bla bla bla and use this pandemic to bully, we're all screwed. It'll continue onward after this nightmare is over which I can't see and end anytime soon. We need to work together as whole in this industry to not allow our careers to be juggled and tampered with. I sure hope you agree.

Exactly! Very short sighted. You’re supporting the company in their attempts to circumvent a contract you hope to eventually work under. I get some of those encore pilots recalled may be your friends/close colleagues, but think long term for all our future if we continue to allow management to do as they please.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Its quite clear in the PTA about bump rights. Jet driver is correct and you are not. Section 8.01 is pretty clear and its under "WestJet or Swoop layoff and recall" I understand Encore pilots are looking out for their own team, but if we keep allowing the company to do whatever it wants with these CA's and PTA's bla bla bla and use this pandemic to bully, we're all screwed. It'll continue onward after this nightmare is over which I can't see and end anytime soon. We need to work together as whole in this industry to not allow our careers to be juggled and tampered with. I sure hope you agree.

8.06 applies exclusively to WestJet Pilots. 9.01 applies to Encore pilots.

This recall at Encore are subject to 9.01, not section 8 as recalls at encore are not subject to section 8.

Either way, it doesn’t matter what any of us think as it’s up to the mediator now.

[pacman007]

Don’t cause too much of a stink....can the PTA be cancelled?

[lostaviator]

Don’t cause too much of a stink....can the PTA be cancelled?

Not can, but when?

At least we got to test the language before too much time with it had passed. I think we all know its worth now and who benefits.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Don’t cause too much of a stink....can the PTA be cancelled?

Not can, but when?

At least we got to test the language before too much time with it had passed. I think we all know its worth now and who benefits.

I’m sorry that the PTA does not benefit you the way you want. For everyone else, we have enjoyed the couple of months of PTA and then the mainline guys enjoyed the bump down protection offered by it.

Should it be revisited? Absolutely!

Is it urgent? No.

[Bil Derberg]

Any updates for 2021 on potential recalls guys?

[mbav8r]

Any updates for 2021 on potential recalls guys?

You should go to the WestJet thread where more layoffs are being discussed, recalls in 2021 are very unlikely at this point, in my opinion.

[George Taylor]

There are mandated recalls at Encore stipulated in their MOA. Currently 50 pilots are being recalled.

[Blue42]

There are mandated recalls at Encore stipulated in their MOA. Currently 50 pilots are being recalled.

To be clear, it’s 50 positions to be recalled or added. With 415 receiving layoff emails yesterday, and many bumping down to Encore, it’s unlikely there will be actual recalls.

[47north]

There are mandated recalls at Encore stipulated in their MOA. Currently 50 pilots are being recalled.

To be clear, it’s 50 positions to be recalled or added. With 415 receiving layoff emails yesterday, and many bumping down to Encore, it’s unlikely there will be actual recalls.

How many active and inactive pilots are left at WS?

[George Taylor]

They have just updated the recall, it’s now 224 pilots, this does not include the WJ pilots bumping into Encore. I have no idea how this is going to workout.

[RockSalty]

They have just updated the recall, it’s now 224 pilots, this does not include the WJ pilots bumping into Encore. I have no idea how this is going to workout.

How many does that leave on layoff now?

[Maxpwr]

.

[George Taylor]

Umm, I'm not entirely sure that is correct. This recall happened after the reduction bid was finalized. As I said, I'm not sure how this will pan out in the end, but by Westjet (Encore) conducting a recall right after the reduction bid, left many mainline pilots unemployed. Very dirty tactics, but I know its just business.
There are approx. 190 mainline pilots bumping into Encore. There are approx 340 Encore pilots on layoff. There is a current recall of 224 pilots to Encore, announced after the reduction bid.
Let the games begin.