Encore Recalls

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

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planebored
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by planebored »

kiaszceski wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:11 pm So everyone could potentially bid all positions?

Seems lot of people would choose mainline rather that Encore, meaning all 737 OTS that got in since 2018-ish would now be at Encore ?
I am not a Westjet pilot, but I have 2 very close friends who are (one Encore on WJML) and have had many beers with them discussing the ways of the (canadian aviation) world.

My opinion for the 3 cents it's worth, now is the best time to transition to a true one list when recalls happen, and allow people to bid into positions they can hold based on their overall number. Then any Encore pilots who have not been given a ML job can bid it now.

Again, 3 cents.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by Yycjetdriver »

planebored wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:34 am
kiaszceski wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:11 pm So everyone could potentially bid all positions?

Seems lot of people would choose mainline rather that Encore, meaning all 737 OTS that got in since 2018-ish would now be at Encore ?
I am not a Westjet pilot, but I have 2 very close friends who are (one Encore on WJML) and have had many beers with them discussing the ways of the (canadian aviation) world.

My opinion for the 3 cents it's worth, now is the best time to transition to a true one list when recalls happen, and allow people to bid into positions they can hold based on their overall number. Then any Encore pilots who have not been given a ML job can bid it now.

Again, 3 cents.
Zero chance of that happening, would be a very costly venture. While the training at Westjet is very good(thanks to the hard working and dedicated trainers), costs have always been the primary focus for the company in regards to training.
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Bede
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by Bede »

planebored wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:49 pm
Maxpwr wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:49 am
Guilden wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:57 am Wrong, there's mainline pilots that did bit it but couldn't hold it at the time but can now.
I understand that but it just doesn’t work that way. There was one opportunity to seek employment at Encore using the PTA and that was upon lay-off. It’s not in perpetuity like we wish it was. If you bid to go to Encore ONLY as a captain and couldn’t hold it then you basically turned down employment as Encore FO and chose lay-off instead Those are the only rights the PTA affords mainline pilots as it’s written. It was communicated at the time of the bid and apparently supported by the ALPA MEC. I didn’t write the PTA and certainly would have done it differently but just think it almost passed WITHOUT a right to bump at lay-off 😱
Are you dumb, stupid or dumb... huh?

If it's truly ONE LIST then that WJ pilot who couldn't hold the position then but can now should get first dibs.

My guess is WestJet doesn't want them to go to Encore because that means a full course and now that 6 months have passed and we're 6 months closer to the end of this pandemic they don't want to spend that money knowing they'll be back at ML in short order.
It seems that you are unfamiliar with the WJ CA. WJ does not have a "One List"- it's a pilot transfer agreement, the terms of which are as Maxpwr described.
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Maxpwr
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by Maxpwr »

planebored wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:49 pm
Maxpwr wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:49 am
Guilden wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:57 am Wrong, there's mainline pilots that did bit it but couldn't hold it at the time but can now.
I understand that but it just doesn’t work that way. There was one opportunity to seek employment at Encore using the PTA and that was upon lay-off. It’s not in perpetuity like we wish it was. If you bid to go to Encore ONLY as a captain and couldn’t hold it then you basically turned down employment as Encore FO and chose lay-off instead Those are the only rights the PTA affords mainline pilots as it’s written. It was communicated at the time of the bid and apparently supported by the ALPA MEC. I didn’t write the PTA and certainly would have done it differently but just think it almost passed WITHOUT a right to bump at lay-off 😱
Are you dumb, stupid or dumb... huh?

If it's truly ONE LIST then that WJ pilot who couldn't hold the position then but can now should get first dibs.

My guess is WestJet doesn't want them to go to Encore because that means a full course and now that 6 months have passed and we're 6 months closer to the end of this pandemic they don't want to spend that money knowing they'll be back at ML in short order.
So to answer your question I’m neither dumb nor stupid. I am also not ignorant as you seem to be. I read the actual Pilot Transfer Agreement (PTA) as it’s written in English and doesn’t require reading comprehension skills above grade 6. Maybe dust off the ol’ Hooked on Phonics and give it another go before spouting off at people. Mmkay?
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Maxpwr wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:39 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:21 pm
Maxpwr wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:30 pm

Who said it was a true one list? Nevertheless you made my point. If they couldn’t hold any position whatsoever at Encore in May (bizarre) then the point of bumping into Encore via the PTA is moot. It’s that simple. People talk as if the entire list is open to everyone at all times. It is not. The list simply tracks date of hire in WJ group. The Pilot TRANSFER agreement is what allows mobility into another bargaining unit’s roster. What you’re arguing would be like a senior Encore pilot that COULD have flowed a few years ago but chose not to and he technically has the seniority to hold mainline doesn’t mean he gets to. Because his window of opportunity to TRANSFER has closed while others have recall rights to mainline even though they’re technically junior to the Encore guy. See what I mean?
Yes I get what you’re saying and that’s why I said in my previous post you’re correct in describing the way it’s working now. I don’t care about that, what I’m saying is that it’s wrong the way it is and there’s going to be many(maybe 47) pissed off pilots.
Ok yes totally agree it’s a shit sandwich served with a side of diarrhea soup. Just don’t want mainline pilots thinking it’ll somehow be changed any time soon.
Rumour has it a grievance was filed by the mainline union today. I haven’t seen it personally but have heard the point of it was recalls being made to encore from furloughed encore pilots only, which violates bumping rights of a combined seniority list. Guess your prediction was wrong.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by ALPApolicy »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:23 pm Rumour has it a grievance was filed by the mainline union today. I haven’t seen it personally but have heard the point of it was recalls being made to encore from furloughed encore pilots only, which violates bumping rights of a combined seniority list. Guess your prediction was wrong.
Whoa. Rumour of a grievance filed, or even the factual occurrence of a grievance filed is not evidence that the policy will be reversed or altered. Therefore, the prediction made is not currently wrong. It may be, but not yet.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by Yycjetdriver »

ALPApolicy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:41 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:23 pm Rumour has it a grievance was filed by the mainline union today. I haven’t seen it personally but have heard the point of it was recalls being made to encore from furloughed encore pilots only, which violates bumping rights of a combined seniority list. Guess your prediction was wrong.
Whoa. Rumour of a grievance filed, or even the factual occurrence of a grievance filed is not evidence that the policy will be reversed or altered. Therefore, the prediction made is not currently wrong. It may be, but not yet.
Well it’s certainly a long way from nothing being done or possible. Thanks for your input though....
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by ALPApolicy »

Just keeping things real. I never was a fan of the PTA or the One List post-certification. That said, I hope that whatever the PTA states is adhered to by all parties.
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lostaviator
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by lostaviator »

I don't know who has made more money off of us... ALPA or the arbitrator. :lol: :lol: This CA is the Christmas present that just keeps giving... (to him).
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notwhoyouthinkIam
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

I’m not sure why the mainline guys feel screwed. The agreement is quite simple.

There is a pilot transfer agreement that states that an Encore pilot can move up into mainline and that a mainline pilot can bump down into Encore if they are laid off at mainline.

At this point, we’re not being governed by the PTA, but instead the recall language that is in the Encore TA.

A mainline pilot who was laid off and did not bump into Encore are not Encore pilots and are not governed by the Encore TA.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love a single list with biddable positions across all of WestJet, but that is not what we have. Encorians were shown that mainline pilots overwhelmingly want to use Encore as a backup but don’t care for the (at the time of the vote) current Encore pilot.

I’m sorry, but we’ll all have our time to be recalled soon enough. Until then, I will keep looking for a second job so that I can afford rent and food.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by Yycjetdriver »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:14 pm I’m not sure why the mainline guys feel screwed. The agreement is quite simple.

There is a pilot transfer agreement that states that an Encore pilot can move up into mainline and that a mainline pilot can bump down into Encore if they are laid off at mainline.

At this point, we’re not being governed by the PTA, but instead the recall language that is in the Encore TA.

A mainline pilot who was laid off and did not bump into Encore are not Encore pilots and are not governed by the Encore TA.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love a single list with biddable positions across all of WestJet, but that is not what we have. Encorians were shown that mainline pilots overwhelmingly want to use Encore as a backup but don’t care for the (at the time of the vote) current Encore pilot.

I’m sorry, but we’ll all have our time to be recalled soon enough. Until then, I will keep looking for a second job so that I can afford rent and food.
Sure the pilots being recalled are governed by the Encore collective agreement, however the PTA should still allow a mainline pilot to then bump that encore pilot out of the spot if he/she chooses.
I have seen a copy of the grievance, the facts it points out are with the PTA a mainline pilot facing a furlough will have the right to bump into encore/swoop if his/her seniority will allow. At the time of reductions there was mainline pilots whose seniority did not allow for this, now with the recalls it does. There is nothing in the PTA in regards to it being a one time deal.
Both groups voted in this PTA, the encore pilots wanted it for the benefits it provided them, well this bump and flush aspect of the PTA is one of the few benefits the mainline pilots got for voting yes. The company offered it probably thinking they wouldn’t have significant layoffs in the near future or ever, that’s obviously not the case. Now because they would need to fork out the $ for initials on all those mainline pilots, they’re not honouring the PTA as it should be.
The company benefitted from the PTA(pilot retention/recruitment), the encore Pilots benefitted from the PTA, you can’t complain now because you don’t like the downside to the PTA. I wouldn’t worry if I was those recalled encore pilots though, let’s be honest the company is gonna to do what they do best, not give a rat ass about the pilots and let every little issue go to arbitration.
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notwhoyouthinkIam
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:45 pm
notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:14 pm I’m not sure why the mainline guys feel screwed. The agreement is quite simple.

There is a pilot transfer agreement that states that an Encore pilot can move up into mainline and that a mainline pilot can bump down into Encore if they are laid off at mainline.

At this point, we’re not being governed by the PTA, but instead the recall language that is in the Encore TA.

A mainline pilot who was laid off and did not bump into Encore are not Encore pilots and are not governed by the Encore TA.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love a single list with biddable positions across all of WestJet, but that is not what we have. Encorians were shown that mainline pilots overwhelmingly want to use Encore as a backup but don’t care for the (at the time of the vote) current Encore pilot.

I’m sorry, but we’ll all have our time to be recalled soon enough. Until then, I will keep looking for a second job so that I can afford rent and food.
Sure the pilots being recalled are governed by the Encore collective agreement, however the PTA should still allow a mainline pilot to then bump that encore pilot out of the spot if he/she chooses.
I have seen a copy of the grievance, the facts it points out are with the PTA a mainline pilot facing a furlough will have the right to bump into encore/swoop if his/her seniority will allow. At the time of reductions there was mainline pilots whose seniority did not allow for this, now with the recalls it does. There is nothing in the PTA in regards to it being a one time deal.
Both groups voted in this PTA, the encore pilots wanted it for the benefits it provided them, well this bump and flush aspect of the PTA is one of the few benefits the mainline pilots got for voting yes. The company offered it probably thinking they wouldn’t have significant layoffs in the near future or ever, that’s obviously not the case. Now because they would need to fork out the $ for initials on all those mainline pilots, they’re not honouring the PTA as it should be.
The company benefitted from the PTA(pilot retention/recruitment), the encore Pilots benefitted from the PTA, you can’t complain now because you don’t like the downside to the PTA. I wouldn’t worry if I was those recalled encore pilots though, let’s be honest the company is gonna to do what they do best, not give a rat ass about the pilots and let every little issue go to arbitration.
The mainline pilots, Encore pilots, and company all agreed to the PTA.

The PTA does not govern recalls.

It’s a shame that the mainline pilots are upset, but I don’t see them have a leg to stand on. You can argue that you interpreted it differently, but arguing that you are entitled to something because it’s not written against the opposite is silly.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by Yycjetdriver »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:00 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:45 pm
notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:14 pm I’m not sure why the mainline guys feel screwed. The agreement is quite simple.

There is a pilot transfer agreement that states that an Encore pilot can move up into mainline and that a mainline pilot can bump down into Encore if they are laid off at mainline.

At this point, we’re not being governed by the PTA, but instead the recall language that is in the Encore TA.

A mainline pilot who was laid off and did not bump into Encore are not Encore pilots and are not governed by the Encore TA.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love a single list with biddable positions across all of WestJet, but that is not what we have. Encorians were shown that mainline pilots overwhelmingly want to use Encore as a backup but don’t care for the (at the time of the vote) current Encore pilot.

I’m sorry, but we’ll all have our time to be recalled soon enough. Until then, I will keep looking for a second job so that I can afford rent and food.
Sure the pilots being recalled are governed by the Encore collective agreement, however the PTA should still allow a mainline pilot to then bump that encore pilot out of the spot if he/she chooses.
I have seen a copy of the grievance, the facts it points out are with the PTA a mainline pilot facing a furlough will have the right to bump into encore/swoop if his/her seniority will allow. At the time of reductions there was mainline pilots whose seniority did not allow for this, now with the recalls it does. There is nothing in the PTA in regards to it being a one time deal.
Both groups voted in this PTA, the encore pilots wanted it for the benefits it provided them, well this bump and flush aspect of the PTA is one of the few benefits the mainline pilots got for voting yes. The company offered it probably thinking they wouldn’t have significant layoffs in the near future or ever, that’s obviously not the case. Now because they would need to fork out the $ for initials on all those mainline pilots, they’re not honouring the PTA as it should be.
The company benefitted from the PTA(pilot retention/recruitment), the encore Pilots benefitted from the PTA, you can’t complain now because you don’t like the downside to the PTA. I wouldn’t worry if I was those recalled encore pilots though, let’s be honest the company is gonna to do what they do best, not give a rat ass about the pilots and let every little issue go to arbitration.
The mainline pilots, Encore pilots, and company all agreed to the PTA.

The PTA does not govern recalls.

It’s a shame that the mainline pilots are upset, but I don’t see them have a leg to stand on. You can argue that you interpreted it differently, but arguing that you are entitled to something because it’s not written against the opposite is silly.
I’m not arguing at all and certainly not because of entitlement because it doesn’t affect me. I’m just pointing out the facts brought forward by the grievance.
I get the PTA doesn’t have any language regarding recalls, the who point is now that those positions exist, which they didn’t before it should be mainline pilots bumping into those positions. There’s no encore recalls required.
A complete aside from the grievance, mainline is overstaffed, the company saved themselves costly layoffs off the backs of their pilots in the form of a reduced MMG. A company with a “single list” operating one division with pay cuts and overstaffing while recalling at another division. So this whole recall argument is pointless, management does what they want always have always will.
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notwhoyouthinkIam
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

Let me boil down my point because I don’t think that I conveyed it clearly last time.

In the PTA, it is explicitly stated that “in the event of a recall at WestJet or Swoop”, the WestJet/Swoop collective agreement will apply. It says a very similar thing regarding Encore.

When a pilot is laid off from WestJet/Swoop, they have an opportunity to bump down into Encore. If they cannot hold an Encore position, they become a WestJet/Swoop Furloughed pilot. As a WestJet/Swoop furlough, they retain recall rights to WestJet/Swoop. At no point have they become an Encore pilot or been laid off from Encore.

For clarification, WestJet/Swoop are one bargaining group and Encore is another.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by Yycjetdriver »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:25 am Let me boil down my point because I don’t think that I conveyed it clearly last time.

In the PTA, it is explicitly stated that “in the event of a recall at WestJet or Swoop”, the WestJet/Swoop collective agreement will apply. It says a very similar thing regarding Encore.

When a pilot is laid off from WestJet/Swoop, they have an opportunity to bump down into Encore. If they cannot hold an Encore position, they become a WestJet/Swoop Furloughed pilot. As a WestJet/Swoop furlough, they retain recall rights to WestJet/Swoop. At no point have they become an Encore pilot or been laid off from Encore.

For clarification, WestJet/Swoop are one bargaining group and Encore is another.
Yes I get what you were saying the first time and still disagree with you. I’ll state my reason/what the grievance is based on one last time.

A Westjet/Swoop pilot holds the right to bump into Encore in the event of layoffs and based on their seniority. At the time of reductions there were many reduced Swoop/Mainline pilots who were unable to do so and received layoffs.
Now with Additional positions being created at Encore some Mainline/Swoop pilots would in fact be able to bump down into Encore. The Mainline/Swoop MEC is arguing in the grievance those pilots should have to opportunity to exercise their bumping rights, their current status should not effect this, they’ve been reduced from their positions, whether it was now or 6 months ago shouldn’t matter. If they put it out to bid(as they should) it would certainly fall under the PTA bumping rights.
I get you may want what’s best for fellow Encore pilots, and as I said, this whole thing doesn’t affect me, I only want to see the company go about this in the proper way I hate see anything group get screwed over. Heck those furloughed pilots probably would make more on CEWS than as an encore FO, but if that’s what they chose for themselves and their families, they should have that choice.
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Guilden
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by Guilden »

Its quite clear in the PTA about bump rights. Jet driver is correct and you are not. Section 8.01 is pretty clear and its under "WestJet or Swoop layoff and recall" I understand Encore pilots are looking out for their own team, but if we keep allowing the company to do whatever it wants with these CA's and PTA's bla bla bla and use this pandemic to bully, we're all screwed. It'll continue onward after this nightmare is over which I can't see and end anytime soon. We need to work together as whole in this industry to not allow our careers to be juggled and tampered with. I sure hope you agree.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Guilden wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:58 am Its quite clear in the PTA about bump rights. Jet driver is correct and you are not. Section 8.01 is pretty clear and its under "WestJet or Swoop layoff and recall" I understand Encore pilots are looking out for their own team, but if we keep allowing the company to do whatever it wants with these CA's and PTA's bla bla bla and use this pandemic to bully, we're all screwed. It'll continue onward after this nightmare is over which I can't see and end anytime soon. We need to work together as whole in this industry to not allow our careers to be juggled and tampered with. I sure hope you agree.
Exactly! Very short sighted. You’re supporting the company in their attempts to circumvent a contract you hope to eventually work under. I get some of those encore pilots recalled may be your friends/close colleagues, but think long term for all our future if we continue to allow management to do as they please.
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notwhoyouthinkIam
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

Guilden wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:58 am Its quite clear in the PTA about bump rights. Jet driver is correct and you are not. Section 8.01 is pretty clear and its under "WestJet or Swoop layoff and recall" I understand Encore pilots are looking out for their own team, but if we keep allowing the company to do whatever it wants with these CA's and PTA's bla bla bla and use this pandemic to bully, we're all screwed. It'll continue onward after this nightmare is over which I can't see and end anytime soon. We need to work together as whole in this industry to not allow our careers to be juggled and tampered with. I sure hope you agree.
8.06 applies exclusively to WestJet Pilots. 9.01 applies to Encore pilots.

This recall at Encore are subject to 9.01, not section 8 as recalls at encore are not subject to section 8.

Either way, it doesn’t matter what any of us think as it’s up to the mediator now.
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pacman007
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by pacman007 »

Don’t cause too much of a stink....can the PTA be cancelled?
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lostaviator
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Re: Encore Recalls

Post by lostaviator »

pacman007 wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:04 pm Don’t cause too much of a stink....can the PTA be cancelled?
Not can, but when?

At least we got to test the language before too much time with it had passed. I think we all know its worth now and who benefits.
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