DOH merge.

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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:57 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:29 pm

I read someone speculate AC would just shift the hiring to Transat... maybe that's it...

That would be me, but I didn’t mean it as speculation. It was what happened during the last merger with Canadian Airlines. Some of the training was offloaded to the training department that was not as busy. In that case Canadian. In the end everyone ends up on the same list anyway, so even if that happens here, it doesn’t impact the end result. It only impacted where new hires started.
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:59 pm

Jettime3 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:24 pm
Hangry wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:01 pm
FL320 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:13 am
Westjet/Onex and Air France interested in Transat, so we know why AC went from 13$ to 18$...
Let them have it.
Yup. Let them shuffle it around and make it into an express version of what we do . TS you are not an improvement . You are not any more than a charter airline who has overseas seasonal flying. What’s so unique? Your fleet of leased aircraft? Your pilots? Or your routes ? AC can lease aircraft , AC is moving pilots and that leaves your routes . That’s all we want . And if you think you are taking our DOH seniority we will see about that . You will have a job , but you will not be Air Transat . You will be a division of AC. No ALPA . You need to educate yourselves on ACPA and what your integration will consist of.
I’m thinking your the one that needs the educating. Your view point is way out in left field.
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FL-280
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL-280 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:06 pm

Not so left of field... he just has the balls to say how he really feels. When it comes time to vote, there ain't anyone looking above your shoulder. It's just you, and you will vote for your own interests.
I will do the same.
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:31 pm

FL-280 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:06 pm
Not so left of field... he just has the balls to say how he really feels. When it comes time to vote, there ain't anyone looking above your shoulder. It's just you, and you will vote for your own interests.
I will do the same.
You won't have a vote on anything related to seniority integration. Well I suppose we would vote if an agreement was found between the parties. But a no vote would just mean an arbitrator decides.

Voting ACPA or ALPA will have zero impact on seniority. Once ACPA or ALPA are certified they have a fiduciary duty to all members regardless of previous affiliation.

In fact ACPA walked like they were on egg shells with the CAIL guys. Liability can be limiting.
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TFTMB heavy
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TFTMB heavy » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:26 pm

Usually, there is no vote on an integrated seniority list, it is left up to the two parties to come up with a suitable solution. If they can't an arbitrator decides.
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Hangry
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Hangry » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:34 pm

This will end in arbitration.

Anyhoo. Welcome aboard boys and girls. When the dust settles all in all it’s a really great place to work.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:47 pm

We will need to put the seniority fight and any hard feelings to rest quickly, kick B-scale to the curb, not let them divide us, and get a fucking raise

Rovinescu is making millions and he just cashed out 50 million with 100+ million in options still vested. Time to get our slice.
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:48 pm

TFTMB heavy wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:26 pm
Usually, there is no vote on an integrated seniority list, it is left up to the two parties to come up with a suitable solution. If they can't an arbitrator decides.
Usually yes. ACPA was formed on a grass roots concept.

As such the constitution requires a vote on everything.
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yycflyguy
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by yycflyguy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:24 am

Grass roots. Tee hee. Always gets a chuckle out of me
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JoeyBarton
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by JoeyBarton » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:48 am

Why not keep the lists separated and a fixed number of fins or pilots and TS? After all encore is not part of the wj mainline-swoop list. The common employer thing doesn't necessarily mean the 2 lists have to be merged..
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:51 am

Because they would pit groups against each other to get work.

ACPA owns all Air Canada and Air Canada subsidiary flying within the provision of their scope agreement.
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JoeyBarton
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by JoeyBarton » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:29 am

If you limit the number of tails at TS, the 2 groups won't fight against each other..
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:04 am

JoeyBarton wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:29 am
If you limit the number of tails at TS, the 2 groups won't fight against each other..
The single most important scope language within ACPA’s collective agreement. Only Air Canada pilots, on the Air Canada pilot seniority list, can fly aircraft on behalf of Air Canada.

What you are suggesting is opening up the single most important part of ACPA’s scope and long term job security. Allowing non Air Canada pilots to fly aircraft on behalf of Air Canada. We currently have an exemption for 80 seats and less. You are suggesting we expand that exemption to Widebody aircraft.

The one rule of scope is that it always slides away from you. Always. So you always resist the slide knowing full well you can’t stop it fully.

Two decades ago the exemption was 50 seats. Today it is 75. Some airlines in North America have moved to 76-78. It will keep moving.

Rouge was limited to 25 Narrow bodies originally. Now has 40 something.

So now you suggest a new exemption. Say 30 tails flown by non Air Canada pilots. What do you think that will look like 2 decades from now? It will forever place ACPA pilots on the defensive during negotiations. Expending negotiating energy, that could be expended elsewhere, trying to resist this new exemptions growth. AC management would love that idea.

It also creates a very divisive atmosphere when one group of pilots feels as if another group is holding them down. The opposing group feeling as if the other group is trying to take something that doesn’t belong to them. That atmosphere is ripe for exploitation by management. History has taught us. Don’t do it.
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aerodude
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by aerodude » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:27 am

JoeyBarton wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:29 am
If you limit the number of tails at TS, the 2 groups won't fight against each other..
This cannot happen. There should be one list with one payscale. Rouge doesnt help, and ACPA pilots voting to allow unlimited NB growth at rouge on the last reopener was also a beauty. Didn’t understand that to be honest.

We will now have groups within the same holding company (AC) fighting for flying. A, B, and now a C scale company :prayer:

Next recession will be a bloodbath when the company needs to cut costs.
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Last edited by aerodude on Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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jetpilot
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by jetpilot » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:28 am

Easy!

-United we stand, divided we fall
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Warden
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Warden » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:20 pm

aerodude wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:27 am
JoeyBarton wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:29 am
If you limit the number of tails at TS, the 2 groups won't fight against each other..
This cannot happen. There should be one list with one payscale. Rouge doesnt help, and ACPA pilots voting to allow unlimited NB growth at rouge on the last reopener was also a beauty. Didn’t understand that to be honest.

We will now have groups within the same holding company (AC) fighting for flying. A, B, and now a C scale company :prayer:

Next recession will be a bloodbath when the company needs to cut costs.
Regardless of however it all integrated THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is that we are all on one list.

I will vote against any contract and fight against any contract that does otherwise. Regardless of how much money they try to throw at me.
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Warden
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Warden » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:21 pm

jetpilot wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:28 am
Easy!

-United we stand, divided we fall
And in keeping with "United" maybe one day we'll be paid like them.

I can dream.
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CZBBYYZPilot
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by CZBBYYZPilot » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:43 pm

A bit off topic, but does anyone know how the hiring at TS is going in the meantime? I heard fall classes were moved up to summer, but I don't know if it actually happened. What kind of numbers are we talking?
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termerair
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by termerair » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:24 pm

CZBBYYZPilot wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:43 pm
A bit off topic, but does anyone know how the hiring at TS is going in the meantime? I heard fall classes were moved up to summer, but I don't know if it actually happened. What kind of numbers are we talking?
Looks like 2 GS in september. One starting on the 9th, the other one on the 23rd.
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flyinhigh
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by flyinhigh » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:14 pm

One original September class was moved up to May with no other classes throughout summer. From there it sounds like there is at least one September class, with the remainder throughout the rest of the year in flux due to the AC deal.
CZBBYYZPilot wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:43 pm
A bit off topic, but does anyone know how the hiring at TS is going in the meantime? I heard fall classes were moved up to summer, but I don't know if it actually happened. What kind of numbers are we talking?
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flyinhigh
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by flyinhigh » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:15 pm

CZBBYYZPilot wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:43 pm
A bit off topic, but does anyone know how the hiring at TS is going in the meantime? I heard fall classes were moved up to summer, but I don't know if it actually happened. What kind of numbers are we talking?
One original September class was moved up to May with no other classes throughout summer. From there it sounds like there is at least one September class, with the remainder throughout the rest of the year in flux due to the AC deal.
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CZBBYYZPilot
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by CZBBYYZPilot » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:20 pm

Ah ok, thanks.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Daniel Cooper » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:41 am

It sounds like the Quebecor offer is only going to come if the AC deal gets voted down by the shareholders. With Letko's vote secured for AC it seems likely the AC deal will pass and that will be the end of it.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:13 am

I think 5:1 this will pass, but I won't discount Quebecor's influence, some may believe there is more money there if this gets turned down and a bidding war is launched with another major player... only takes 1/3...

Not to mention other major shareholders with combined stakes larger than Letko's haven't affirmed support on the deal, some have loyalties to Québec labour above capital gains.

The possibility of the competition bureau shutting down the deal entirely is also very real.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by plhought » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:45 pm

Fanblade wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:04 am
...The single most important scope language within ACPA’s collective agreement. Only Air Canada pilots, on the Air Canada pilot seniority list, can fly aircraft on behalf of Air Canada.

What you are suggesting is opening up the single most important part of ACPA’s scope and long term job security. Allowing non Air Canada pilots to fly aircraft on behalf of Air Canada. We currently have an exemption for 80 seats and less....
There is precedent for more though.

Air Transat 321's flying on behalf of AC YVR-YUL only months ago.

Omni Air flying 67s on AC tickets to Hawaii out of YVR as we speak.

Qatar flying 777s East out of YUL for AC as we speak as well.
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