DOH merge.

[Fanblade]

Most of the AC pilots I have spoken to expect all TS pilots to go bottom of the list as per their collective agreement. Has this ever happened in any merger in North America? Anywhere?

The contract says no such thing. It wouldn't matter even if it did.

Most AC pilots I talk to know full well that BOTL is not a rational response. But I will give you that there are few hot heads out there and as always they are some of the most vocal.

Every group has them.

[John1234]

I don’t know many Ac Pilots that expect botl. However it is tough position for allot of pilots hired in recent years at Ac. They stand to lose the most from this deal in future earnings, not to mention past earnings already sacrafised by choosing the best route to Ac through regionals. Transat Pilots come out ahead financially under all circumstances, they can be wide body fos and earn more then a 330 cpt. I believe a 50% years of service would be the fairest deal, as well as a restructured collective agreement hopefully eliminating 4yfs flat pay. Transat Pilots still make out better long term and softens the blow to Ac guys/gals. It’s not going to be easy but it makes absolute no sense in my mind why transat Pilots should be entitled to the stuff being said on here.

[digits_]

I don’t know many Ac Pilots that expect botl. However it is tough position for allot of pilots hired in recent years at Ac. They stand to lose the most from this deal in future earnings,

How? Why? Pay isn't going down. Just because someone else would, hypothetically, catch a break, doesn't mean you are losing money.

Air Transat consists -among other things- of planes and pilots. The pilots are merging into AC. The planes, you could have some arguments, but either way, whether it's keeping the original AT planes or the planes are going to be replaced, AC will be operating more planes after the merger than before the merger. Let's say, worst case scenario for AC pilots, that the AT pilots get the right to fly those spanking new airplanes. How will this negatively affect AC pilots? I truly don't see it. Those planes wouldn't be there if it wasn't because of the AT merger.

[126.75]

I think the issue going forward is how fractured the AC group is, and how entrenched they are into their own camps. My camp is to spend time with the wife and kids.

I am at Rouge and have been for about 4 years. I work less days per year than my ML counter parts and earn more money than them (compared with ML friends). I have the ability to get most days off that I want, and can "generally" choose the kind of flying I want.

There are ML guys who despite the fact EVERY rouge pilot can get most days off they want to be at home with their families want to protect a broken seniority system that protects a smaller portion of the membership (say 1/3). These top 33% of guys can get most of their days off (if not swapped) these are the guys that also want to destroy LOU74 (rouge) rip it up and put it behind them, despite the fact almost everyone at rouge is generally pretty happy. I understand that rouge is not perfect, but I think it's been very good for many people.

If I was CEO for a day, I would look at having all of AT's A330-300s go to ML and maybe 6-8 of the A330-200s as well (for thinner routes that the ML767 is doing right now like YYC-NRT/YOW-LHR plus a few trans cons) and have the rest of the 330-200s come to rouge. As it would be a huge let for the WBs to come to rouge, I would provide all rouge WB with ML augment and fatigue rules and ML hourly pay. If ACPA could consider that you could also merge the rouge 330 into the 321/320/319 operation and have the rouge NB pay scale basically pay grouped with the new wide body (AT is doing it now so it is not rocket science). ACPA should be able to extract some gains from this efficiency and spent it on some high value item like perhaps vacation improvements (hope the AT guys don't see how much we get "compensated" for vacation). The 321/NEOs and maybe 737s can be sent to ML or rouge as needed and fit into the ratios.

I am at Rouge and sit in the low 60%s of the AC seniority list, and would be about 50% on the AT list, so DOH would actually have my relative seniority improve.

I think the conversation around socialized bidding needs to be more at the forefront. I did not ask for 300 people to go ahead of me (whether they bring airplanes or not). All I care about is spending time at home with the wife and kids. A socialized position like rouge allows that. Many AC guys want seniority and I think we should leave that alone, but on that same vein many guys want socialized bidding so we should leave that alone too. I hope we at AC realize many of our AT colleagues are valuable addition to our ranks and BOTL will not happen. We need to come together and have a mutually agreed upon solution.

I think a DOH solution where AT guys bid into our newly increased positions with the new fins taken into account with no category protections from their previous position (ie a 5 year AT 330 skipper can't maintain WB captain) would be the best way. Any AC pilot who gets bumped would get a RIR back to where ever they were reduced from. Most (all?) junior AT skippers would be able to hold a NB C position at AC which would still be either similar pay or a pay increase from their previous position. I would also make sure everyone (AC and AT) just skips the whole flat pay BS and hits formula as a one time merger pack with the company (eventually would like to see flat pay reduced to 1 year/probation only).

Anyhow, buckle up!

[altiplano]

I am at Rouge and have been for about 4 years. I work less days per year than my ML counter parts and earn more money than them (compared with ML friends). I have the ability to get most days off that I want, and can "generally" choose the kind of flying I want.

If your priority is time off at home, which infers you aren't working extra overtime days, how are you making more than a mainline pilot same type/status?

[TFTMB heavy]

It's hard to foresee AC retraining most of the of Transat pilots to comply with the ACPA contract, that would cost millions. It's more likely that AC will sit down with ACPA and work out a deal to take advantage of 700 trained pilots and the lift they provided, at a lower cost than ACPA pilots would, ASAP.

I don't see the TS brand being erased that quickly, the brand and revenues it generates are linked to the airline. Tying the two revenue streams together and arranging the routes to maximise lift and revenues will be the game, not parking the planes to train around 1000 pilots (guessing 500 TS and 500 AC).

[126.75]

I am at Rouge and have been for about 4 years. I work less days per year than my ML counter parts and earn more money than them (compared with ML friends). I have the ability to get most days off that I want, and can "generally" choose the kind of flying I want.

If your priority is time off at home, which infers you aren't working extra overtime days, how are you making more than a mainline pilot same type/status?

Good question. My wife is a stay at home parent so I am flexible.

I can do a fair bit of draft and drop situation. I will not work over 16 days. I am flexible and ask for less days of work and will do a few extra days, though I have not done any recently. 319 C. The 767 pay rates vs ML are really bad. 319vs 320 are pretty close especially considering many months its all day flying anyhow.

I am not one of the guys blowing their brains for an extra 150k a year or anything but when 10 hours of draft is worth >5k it adds up fast.

[Ki-ll]

How? Why? Pay isn't going down. Just because someone else would, hypothetically, catch a break, doesn't mean you are losing money.

Air Transat consists -among other things- of planes and pilots. The pilots are merging into AC. The planes, you could have some arguments, but either way, whether it's keeping the original AT planes or the planes are going to be replaced, AC will be operating more planes after the merger than before the merger. Let's say, worst case scenario for AC pilots, that the AT pilots get the right to fly those spanking new airplanes. How will this negatively affect AC pilots? I truly don't see it. Those planes wouldn't be there if it wasn't because of the AT merger.

How is this difficult to understand?
The money is in bigger airplanes. Someone who gets 500 people on top of him in the seniority list might never see WB captain spot due to the way demographics works against him. Or he will see it for fewer years.

[TFTMB heavy]

How? Why? Pay isn't going down. Just because someone else would, hypothetically, catch a break, doesn't mean you are losing money.

Air Transat consists -among other things- of planes and pilots. The pilots are merging into AC. The planes, you could have some arguments, but either way, whether it's keeping the original AT planes or the planes are going to be replaced, AC will be operating more planes after the merger than before the merger. Let's say, worst case scenario for AC pilots, that the AT pilots get the right to fly those spanking new airplanes. How will this negatively affect AC pilots? I truly don't see it. Those planes wouldn't be there if it wasn't because of the AT merger.

How is this difficult to understand?
The money is in bigger airplanes. Someone who gets 500 people on top of him in the seniority list might never see WB captain spot due to the way demographics works against him. Or he will see it for fewer years.

The 500 pilots slotting ahead come with aircraft, the ratio stays the same for career progression. BTW, I'm pretty sure TS operates the aircraft with less crews per than AC, so it will create even more upgrades.

[Ki-ll]

How? Why? Pay isn't going down. Just because someone else would, hypothetically, catch a break, doesn't mean you are losing money.

Air Transat consists -among other things- of planes and pilots. The pilots are merging into AC. The planes, you could have some arguments, but either way, whether it's keeping the original AT planes or the planes are going to be replaced, AC will be operating more planes after the merger than before the merger. Let's say, worst case scenario for AC pilots, that the AT pilots get the right to fly those spanking new airplanes. How will this negatively affect AC pilots? I truly don't see it. Those planes wouldn't be there if it wasn't because of the AT merger.

How is this difficult to understand?
The money is in bigger airplanes. Someone who gets 500 people on top of him in the seniority list might never see WB captain spot due to the way demographics works against him. Or he will see it for fewer years.

The 500 pilots slotting ahead come with aircraft, the ratio stays the same for career progression. BTW, I'm pretty sure TS operates the aircraft with less crews per than AC, so it will create even more upgrades.

You don’t know the fleet plan for the AT airplanes. AT has more junior pilot group as well. You have to look at a 30 year career progression, not next 5 years. AC 330 rates were less than 777 rates last time I checked.

[digits_]

How is this difficult to understand?
The money is in bigger airplanes. Someone who gets 500 people on top of him in the seniority list might never see WB captain spot due to the way demographics works against him. Or he will see it for fewer years.

AT brings in wide body airplanes as well. A mix of senior and junior people. Senior people flying AT widebody will most likely be flying widebody after the merger, but they brought "their" own planes. So no AC pilot is negatively affected.

Junior people at AT will slide in on the junior spots at AC (assuming DOH). They might want to fly widebody, but the amount of widebody spots increased due to the merger. So on average that shouldn't change much.

The only problem you could have, in this scenario where some AC pilots could be negatively affected, is in the group of pilots at air transat flying a narrowbody, that have more seniority than the most senior narrow body AC pilot that want to fly a widebody. How big would that group be?

Big enough to screw everyone over and go for BOTL? I doubt it.

[Ki-ll]

How is this difficult to understand?
The money is in bigger airplanes. Someone who gets 500 people on top of him in the seniority list might never see WB captain spot due to the way demographics works against him. Or he will see it for fewer years.

AT brings in wide body airplanes as well. A mix of senior and junior people. Senior people flying AT widebody will most likely be flying widebody after the merger, but they brought "their" own planes. So no AC pilot is negatively affected.

Junior people at AT will slide in on the junior spots at AC (assuming DOH). They might want to fly widebody, but the amount of widebody spots increased due to the merger. So on average that shouldn't change much.

The only problem you could have, in this scenario where some AC pilots could be negatively affected, is in the group of pilots at air transat flying a narrowbody, that have more seniority than the most senior narrow body AC pilot that want to fly a widebody. How big would that group be?

Big enough to screw everyone over and go for BOTL? I doubt it.

Without the fleet plan and seeing how exactly DOH would work it is all assumptions at this point.
You have to look at the effect 20-25 years down the road, together with immediate impact.
I don’t think it is all that rosy for AC pilots.

[thesimplelife]

How is this difficult to understand?
The money is in bigger airplanes. Someone who gets 500 people on top of him in the seniority list might never see WB captain spot due to the way demographics works against him. Or he will see it for fewer years.

AT brings in wide body airplanes as well. A mix of senior and junior people. Senior people flying AT widebody will most likely be flying widebody after the merger, but they brought "their" own planes. So no AC pilot is negatively affected.

Junior people at AT will slide in on the junior spots at AC (assuming DOH). They might want to fly widebody, but the amount of widebody spots increased due to the merger. So on average that shouldn't change much.

The only problem you could have, in this scenario where some AC pilots could be negatively affected, is in the group of pilots at air transat flying a narrowbody, that have more seniority than the most senior narrow body AC pilot that want to fly a widebody. How big would that group be?

Big enough to screw everyone over and go for BOTL? I doubt it.

Well, there is also another group affected.

Those who decided to stick it out at an Express carrier because they were told that was the "way to AC," finally made it to mainline in the last year after AC decided hiring Westjet pilots instead for a whole summer two years ago was a better idea... Now they made their decision to stay loyal to the AC brand instead of going to AT like many colleagues did at the time and will have ALL 600 pilots slot in ahead of them.

Hi.

I am completely conflicted by this because I know DOH is the right thing to do but when you see it effecting you and your career progression so significantly especially AFTER staying loyal to the AC Express brand it feels a bit like betrayal. This will affect my lifestyle for how long I'll be stuck on reserve, ability to upgrade (which was a factor used to choose to accept this job) and long term pay.

That being said IF ACPA can open their eyes and start working for those of us at the bottom of the list and fix the horrendous reserve rules, get significant pay raises including the abolishment of flat pay and raises elsewhere to bring us closer to our US counter parts then I can see myself living with it.

If nothing on the pay and work rules changes and all that happens is a merger of the list I'm not going to be thrilled. Sure more widebody aircraft.... Yay. But I won't see those for years and now there's 600 future WB Captains ahead of me. All while I'm sitting on a shit reserve schedule and making $60,000 a year.

I'm still blown away I had to take a pay cut from Jazz to come here.

[Victory]

I feel for you Express guys and also all the Transat guys that have already switched to AC who effectively flushed their seniority down the toilet if DOH goes through.

[thesimplelife]

I feel for you Express guys and also all the Transat guys that have already switched to AC who effectively flushed their seniority down the toilet if DOH goes through.

Nice to know at least some people care.

I just hope those at the top who control where negotiations go don't forget about us....

Since my career progression will be stunted by this, I better hope to see some short term improvements that make he bullet easier to bite.

But I don't have high expectations.

[TFTMB heavy]

How is this difficult to understand?
The money is in bigger airplanes. Someone who gets 500 people on top of him in the seniority list might never see WB captain spot due to the way demographics works against him. Or he will see it for fewer years.

The 500 pilots slotting ahead come with aircraft, the ratio stays the same for career progression. BTW, I'm pretty sure TS operates the aircraft with less crews per than AC, so it will create even more upgrades.

You don’t know the fleet plan for the AT airplanes. AT has more junior pilot group as well. You have to look at a 30 year career progression, not next 5 years. AC 330 rates were less than 777 rates last time I checked.

Do you know the fleet plan? What are the stats on age in both groups? There's a lot we don't know but you seem to think AC pilots will get screwed? I highly doubt they will re-train TS pilots in the near future, the name of the game is profits, not pissing away 50 million dollars on training.

[DanWEC]

How is this difficult to understand?
The money is in bigger airplanes. Someone who gets 500 people on top of him in the seniority list might never see WB captain spot due to the way demographics works against him. Or he will see it for fewer years.

AT brings in wide body airplanes as well. A mix of senior and junior people. Senior people flying AT widebody will most likely be flying widebody after the merger, but they brought "their" own planes. So no AC pilot is negatively affected.

Junior people at AT will slide in on the junior spots at AC (assuming DOH). They might want to fly widebody, but the amount of widebody spots increased due to the merger. So on average that shouldn't change much.

The only problem you could have, in this scenario where some AC pilots could be negatively affected, is in the group of pilots at air transat flying a narrowbody, that have more seniority than the most senior narrow body AC pilot that want to fly a widebody. How big would that group be?

Big enough to screw everyone over and go for BOTL? I doubt it.

Well, there is also another group affected.

Those who decided to stick it out at an Express carrier because they were told that was the "way to AC," finally made it to mainline in the last year after AC decided hiring Westjet pilots instead for a whole summer two years ago was a better idea... Now they made their decision to stay loyal to the AC brand instead of going to AT like many colleagues did at the time and will have ALL 600 pilots slot in ahead of them.

Hi.

I am completely conflicted by this because I know DOH is the right thing to do but when you see it effecting you and your career progression so significantly especially AFTER staying loyal to the AC Express brand it feels a bit like betrayal. This will affect my lifestyle for how long I'll be stuck on reserve, ability to upgrade (which was a factor used to choose to accept this job) and long term pay.

That being said IF ACPA can open their eyes and start working for those of us at the bottom of the list and fix the horrendous reserve rules, get significant pay raises including the abolishment of flat pay and raises elsewhere to bring us closer to our US counter parts then I can see myself living with it.

If nothing on the pay and work rules changes and all that happens is a merger of the list I'm not going to be thrilled. Sure more widebody aircraft.... Yay. But I won't see those for years and now there's 600 future WB Captains ahead of me. All while I'm sitting on a shit reserve schedule and making $60,000 a year.

I'm still blown away I had to take a pay cut from Jazz to come here.

If you're a new hire, there's a pretty good chance this would benefit you greatly, since Transat is hiring full GS's every month because of duty regs (100 additional pilots required) and by the time all this flushes out a year from now you'll get probably 100 guys instantly UNDER you.

[thesimplelife]

AT brings in wide body airplanes as well. A mix of senior and junior people. Senior people flying AT widebody will most likely be flying widebody after the merger, but they brought "their" own planes. So no AC pilot is negatively affected.

Junior people at AT will slide in on the junior spots at AC (assuming DOH). They might want to fly widebody, but the amount of widebody spots increased due to the merger. So on average that shouldn't change much.

The only problem you could have, in this scenario where some AC pilots could be negatively affected, is in the group of pilots at air transat flying a narrowbody, that have more seniority than the most senior narrow body AC pilot that want to fly a widebody. How big would that group be?

Big enough to screw everyone over and go for BOTL? I doubt it.

Well, there is also another group affected.

Those who decided to stick it out at an Express carrier because they were told that was the "way to AC," finally made it to mainline in the last year after AC decided hiring Westjet pilots instead for a whole summer two years ago was a better idea... Now they made their decision to stay loyal to the AC brand instead of going to AT like many colleagues did at the time and will have ALL 600 pilots slot in ahead of them.

Hi.

I am completely conflicted by this because I know DOH is the right thing to do but when you see it effecting you and your career progression so significantly especially AFTER staying loyal to the AC Express brand it feels a bit like betrayal. This will affect my lifestyle for how long I'll be stuck on reserve, ability to upgrade (which was a factor used to choose to accept this job) and long term pay.

That being said IF ACPA can open their eyes and start working for those of us at the bottom of the list and fix the horrendous reserve rules, get significant pay raises including the abolishment of flat pay and raises elsewhere to bring us closer to our US counter parts then I can see myself living with it.

If nothing on the pay and work rules changes and all that happens is a merger of the list I'm not going to be thrilled. Sure more widebody aircraft.... Yay. But I won't see those for years and now there's 600 future WB Captains ahead of me. All while I'm sitting on a shit reserve schedule and making $60,000 a year.

I'm still blown away I had to take a pay cut from Jazz to come here.

If you're a new hire, there's a pretty good chance this would benefit you greatly, since Transat is hiring full GS's every month because of duty regs (100 additional pilots required) and by the time all this flushes out a year from now you'll get probably 100 guys instantly UNDER you.

I hope so.

I'm just really on edge because I don't like uncertainty.

Even if it ends up benefitting is greatly I hope the union is able to extract some leverage to try to improve some of the things I mentioned. Flat pay, overall pay, reserve rules and pension.

It's going to be an interesting time ahead for sure. And, I'm sure in the mean time AC will still continue to hire as they were planning too.

[goleafsgo]

I think everyone is getting worked up over nothing. I don't think they will merge the company. At least not with Mainline. Maybe with Rouge but that was a risk they took when they left Mainline for Rouge so they can not cry foul too much about that.

They can't. Why do you people keep saying it?

http://negotech.labour.gc.ca/eng/agreem ... 23006a.pdf

1.02.1 All Pilot Positions and all flying performed by or on behalf of the Company or its Affiliates, including all flying utilizing the Company IATA designator code (AC or ACA) or future similar designator code will be occupied and performed by Air Canada Pilots exclusively in accordance with the terms and conditions of this agreement.
Such Company flying will include, without limitation, all revenue, non-revenue, scheduled, unscheduled, passenger, cargo, placement, ferry, charter, scheduled charter, sports charter, training, maintenance test flights and publicity flights

1.05.10 If Air Canada is involved in a merger or acquisition and the pilots of the merged or acquired carrier are consolidated with Air Canada’s Pilots, then any aircraft of the merged carrier that are added to the mainline fleet shall not count as Mainline Baseline WJA, Mainline Baseline NJA, Mainline Growth WJA, Mainline Growth NJA, or for the Growth Ratios as defined in L74.01

Simple put;
A.) For the Aircraft to go to Rouge the pilots would have to be merged.
B.) The merged Aircraft will not be able to be used against the rouge growth shrink ratio.
C.) the Rouge growth shrink ratio at this time does not allow for anymore widebody aircraft to be added
D.) The rouge growth shrink ratio as is stands today has room for approx 8 new fins to be added to rouge.

I know it's off topic but with that wording how do they get away with having jazz/sky regional/georgian operate since they're not AC pilots but do AC flying?

[thesimplelife]

I think everyone is getting worked up over nothing. I don't think they will merge the company. At least not with Mainline. Maybe with Rouge but that was a risk they took when they left Mainline for Rouge so they can not cry foul too much about that.

They can't. Why do you people keep saying it?

http://negotech.labour.gc.ca/eng/agreem ... 23006a.pdf

1.02.1 All Pilot Positions and all flying performed by or on behalf of the Company or its Affiliates, including all flying utilizing the Company IATA designator code (AC or ACA) or future similar designator code will be occupied and performed by Air Canada Pilots exclusively in accordance with the terms and conditions of this agreement.
Such Company flying will include, without limitation, all revenue, non-revenue, scheduled, unscheduled, passenger, cargo, placement, ferry, charter, scheduled charter, sports charter, training, maintenance test flights and publicity flights

1.05.10 If Air Canada is involved in a merger or acquisition and the pilots of the merged or acquired carrier are consolidated with Air Canada’s Pilots, then any aircraft of the merged carrier that are added to the mainline fleet shall not count as Mainline Baseline WJA, Mainline Baseline NJA, Mainline Growth WJA, Mainline Growth NJA, or for the Growth Ratios as defined in L74.01

Simple put;
A.) For the Aircraft to go to Rouge the pilots would have to be merged.
B.) The merged Aircraft will not be able to be used against the rouge growth shrink ratio.
C.) the Rouge growth shrink ratio at this time does not allow for anymore widebody aircraft to be added
D.) The rouge growth shrink ratio as is stands today has room for approx 8 new fins to be added to rouge.

I know it's off topic but with that wording how do they get away with having jazz/sky regional/georgian operate since they're not AC pilots but do AC flying?

Scope and Capacity Purchase Agreements. The AC pilots gave it away for a few crumbs years ago.