Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

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Chooch918Heavy
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Chooch918Heavy »

aerodude wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:18 am
telex wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:13 am So you are guaranteeing a possibility?
The probability of someone bidding for TRZ is there, the guarantee is AC walking away if that probability occurs. There is a real political scenario where a Quebec based firm comes to the rescue and bids.

I’ve always said this transaction was over priced with this crisis. This was expected.

Still 2 months away from shareholder vote, anything can happen boys and girls, specially in 2020!
Air Canada is a Quebec based company. :)
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planebored
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by planebored »

altiplano wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:07 am
flyinhigh wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:26 am Will not be DOH, Will not be bottom of the list.

It will be a form of ratio, which will still need to be determined. If we can all agree on that, this will be much less painful
That is what it will be. Starting point will have to be determined, I have no doubt TS will want top of the list start point, AC will probably want a wage comparable start point. The arbitrator will apply a few corrections, find somewhere in between and everyone will say they got screwed... a few fences/freezes for a period of time...

But let's see the deal go through first. I wonder if Group Mach is still out there? 6$ is a steal from what they had in mind before...
Can't wait to see people who were my FO's at Jazz, and bailed the AC brand for TS end up being my Captains!

Oh joy.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by GATRKGA »

planebored wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:11 pm
altiplano wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:07 am
flyinhigh wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:26 am Will not be DOH, Will not be bottom of the list.

It will be a form of ratio, which will still need to be determined. If we can all agree on that, this will be much less painful
That is what it will be. Starting point will have to be determined, I have no doubt TS will want top of the list start point, AC will probably want a wage comparable start point. The arbitrator will apply a few corrections, find somewhere in between and everyone will say they got screwed... a few fences/freezes for a period of time...

But let's see the deal go through first. I wonder if Group Mach is still out there? 6$ is a steal from what they had in mind before...
Can't wait to see people who were my FO's at Jazz, and bailed the AC brand for TS end up being my Captains!

Oh joy.
There's your first problem. You decided to be loyal to an outfit that doesn't actually award loyalty, and you're upset that people who saw that before you and bailed for greener pastures, may not only be potentially superior to you, but they also got the fun ride of living the life in a vacation airline to boot. I can understand the envy.

You'll learn eventually that loyalty is a two way street, not the one way let-me-fist-you-endlessly approach that AC is so notoriously famous for doing to its employees and express constituents indirectly.

Had this been a faithful saga about Loyalty, you'd gone to Jazz, with DOH, and this wouldn't even be a discussion at this point. But then again, why should a kid who went to Seneca 2 years back and was flowed through Jazz to AC, be sitting left seat to a TS 330 Captain of 20 years? There's that discussion too if you want to open up the real sentiment about what's wrong with our industry. Then you have the FL280's that think AC pilot's are king and should just be able to flow to Nasa if they so believe. :lol: It's moments like this, where it's hard to feel sorry for that MOA you guys just passed. You did it to yourselves because of a short-sighted approach regarding layoffs. Now you've opened up the can of worms, and I'd be hardpressed if I didn't believe CR wants to close the deal asap so that the dealings of the new scope can be put into full force. For the COLLECTIVE group's sake, I hope I am wrong, but nothing surprises me with that man. And what can you do about it? Grieve it I guess. You know the TS pilot's will happily accept a few tweaks to their recent passed TA to basically be a Rouge contract.

On the other hand, it is nice to see some reasonable sentiment by a few AC guys. Realistically, we all know the final outcome will be that no one will be happy and you'll have some TS and AC fanboys that will be offended by the merger even if you gave them the world.

Ultimately 700 pilot's with the impeding fatigue rules around the corner, will be a fart in a hurricane when you look back in 30 years and all this shit has blown over.

Good Luck Everyone.
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Last edited by GATRKGA on Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
planebored
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by planebored »

You make good points.

I learned loyalty doesn't matter that much a few years ago. We're all just a number to the companies we work for.

It is what it is, but you are right in a decade we won't really remember 700 pilots that got integrated.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by GATRKGA »

planebored wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:47 pm You make good points.

I learned loyalty doesn't matter that much a few years ago. We're all just a number to the companies we work for.

It is what it is, but you are right in a decade we won't really remember 700 pilots that got integrated.
That's it man. Just put the war trumpets down and let's get through this shit. Everyone has families and liabilities entangled in this mess. Especially if your seniority number at AC starts with a 3 or lower and 4 or lower at TS.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL320 »

Many of our colleagues have good friends or family members also working as pilots at Air Canada. I have not met so far anyone who feels entitled to a specific seat or seniority number at Air Canada. Nobody want to steal your job; many are very afraid of the outcome without OR WITH the AC purchase. Of course we also have bad apples but they don’t reflect the thinking of the entire group in my opinion.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by airboy1 »

FL320 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:00 pm Many of our colleagues have good friends or family members also working as pilots at Air Canada. I have not met so far anyone who feels entitled to a specific seat or seniority number at Air Canada. Nobody want to steal your job; many are very afraid of the outcome without OR WITH the AC purchase. Of course we also have bad apples but they don’t reflect the thinking of the entire group in my opinion.
Agree, I actually hope we can keep seperate seniority lists and join our AC collegues to build a strong worldwide airline. I think it is very important we keep distinct seperate brands while contributing to eachothers success.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Fanblade »

airboy1 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:22 pm
FL320 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:00 pm Many of our colleagues have good friends or family members also working as pilots at Air Canada. I have not met so far anyone who feels entitled to a specific seat or seniority number at Air Canada. Nobody want to steal your job; many are very afraid of the outcome without OR WITH the AC purchase. Of course we also have bad apples but they don’t reflect the thinking of the entire group in my opinion.
Agree, I actually hope we can keep seperate seniority lists and join our AC collegues to build a strong worldwide airline. I think it is very important we keep distinct seperate brands while contributing to eachothers success.
Separate brands yes.

But this has been explained repeatedly why it WILL be one list.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by TFTMB heavy »

GATRKGA wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:39 pm
planebored wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:11 pm
altiplano wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:07 am

That is what it will be. Starting point will have to be determined, I have no doubt TS will want top of the list start point, AC will probably want a wage comparable start point. The arbitrator will apply a few corrections, find somewhere in between and everyone will say they got screwed... a few fences/freezes for a period of time...

But let's see the deal go through first. I wonder if Group Mach is still out there? 6$ is a steal from what they had in mind before...
Can't wait to see people who were my FO's at Jazz, and bailed the AC brand for TS end up being my Captains!

Oh joy.
There's your first problem. You decided to be loyal to an outfit that doesn't actually award loyalty, and you're upset that people who saw that before you and bailed for greener pastures, may not only be potentially superior to you, but they also got the fun ride of living the life in a vacation airline to boot. I can understand the envy.

You'll learn eventually that loyalty is a two way street, not the one way let-me-fist-you-endlessly approach that AC is so notoriously famous for doing to its employees and express constituents indirectly.

Had this been a faithful saga about Loyalty, you'd gone to Jazz, with DOH, and this wouldn't even be a discussion at this point. But then again, why should a kid who went to Seneca 2 years back and was flowed through Jazz to AC, be sitting left seat to a TS 330 Captain of 20 years? There's that discussion too if you want to open up the real sentiment about what's wrong with our industry. Then you have the FL280's that think AC pilot's are king and should just be able to flow to Nasa if they so believe. :lol: It's moments like this, where it's hard to feel sorry for that MOA you guys just passed. You did it to yourselves because of a short-sighted approach regarding layoffs. Now you've opened up the can of worms, and I'd be hardpressed if I didn't believe CR wants to close the deal asap so that the dealings of the new scope can be put into full force. For the COLLECTIVE group's sake, I hope I am wrong, but nothing surprises me with that man. And what can you do about it? Grieve it I guess. You know the TS pilot's will happily accept a few tweaks to their recent passed TA to basically be a Rouge contract.

On the other hand, it is nice to see some reasonable sentiment by a few AC guys. Realistically, we all know the final outcome will be that no one will be happy and you'll have some TS and AC fanboys that will be offended by the merger even if you gave them the world.

Ultimately 700 pilot's with the impeding fatigue rules around the corner, will be a fart in a hurricane when you look back in 30 years and all this shit has blown over.

Good Luck Everyone.
Nope
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL320 »

Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.
On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by planebored »

airboy1 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:22 pm
FL320 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:00 pm Many of our colleagues have good friends or family members also working as pilots at Air Canada. I have not met so far anyone who feels entitled to a specific seat or seniority number at Air Canada. Nobody want to steal your job; many are very afraid of the outcome without OR WITH the AC purchase. Of course we also have bad apples but they don’t reflect the thinking of the entire group in my opinion.
Agree, I actually hope we can keep seperate seniority lists and join our AC collegues to build a strong worldwide airline. I think it is very important we keep distinct seperate brands while contributing to eachothers success.
No
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by planebored »

FL320 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:38 pm
Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.
On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).
All furloughed AC pilots continue to accrue company service entitlement for the purposes of seniority. Won't matter either way.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Daniel Cooper »

I don't think they do
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Daniel Cooper »

A quick look at the Transat seniority list reveals that even it is not strictly DOH based.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by JoeyBarton »

Daniel Cooper wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:18 am I don't think they do
Of course we do
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Fanblade »

planebored wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:32 pm
FL320 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:38 pm
Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.
On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).
All furloughed AC pilots continue to accrue company service entitlement for the purposes of seniority. Won't matter either way.
Using the words accrue company service and seniority in the same sentence has me confused.

Your seniority slot is fixed within our seniority list. As people retire, even though you maybe on furlough, your seniority position moves up the list.

However that has nothing to do with “company service”. A furloughed or pilot on leave, temporarily suspends accruing company service. For example a pilot on leave for 2 years. After his/her 30 year career will have 28 years of service.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Fanblade »

FL320 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:38 pm
Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.
On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).
It is great Transat is using CEWS. There are rumours under the new CEWS the AC furloughs might be coming back as well. That would also be great.

But it won’t be fooling an arbitrator one way or the other. CEWS is simply EI for a pandemic. It is trying to keep people on payroll who are not actually required. Anyone on EI, CEWS or even still employed but showing surplus is in the same boat.

We have just under 800 on EI/surplus. How many does Transat have on EI, CEWS or showing surplus?

How an arbitrator factors in the “pandemic” to seniority integration is anyone’s guess. It’s now a wild card.

We are all far better off skipping the arbitrator and figuring this out ourselves.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL320 »

Fanblade wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:42 am
FL320 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:38 pm
Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.
On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).
It is great Transat is using CEWS. There are rumours under the new CEWS the AC furloughs might be coming back as well. That would also be great.

But it won’t be fooling an arbitrator one way or the other. CEWS is simply EI for a pandemic. It is trying to keep people on payroll who are not actually required. Anyone on EI, CEWS or even still employed but showing surplus is in the same boat.

We have just under 800 on EI/surplus. How many does Transat have on EI, CEWS or showing surplus?

How an arbitrator factors in the “pandemic” to seniority integration is anyone’s guess. It’s now a wild card.

We are all far better off skipping the arbitrator and figuring this out ourselves.
There are roughly 500 pilots on CEWS.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Fanblade »

FL320 wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:50 am
Fanblade wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:42 am
FL320 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:38 pm

On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).
It is great Transat is using CEWS. There are rumours under the new CEWS the AC furloughs might be coming back as well. That would also be great.

But it won’t be fooling an arbitrator one way or the other. CEWS is simply EI for a pandemic. It is trying to keep people on payroll who are not actually required. Anyone on EI, CEWS or even still employed but showing surplus is in the same boat.

We have just under 800 on EI/surplus. How many does Transat have on EI, CEWS or showing surplus?

How an arbitrator factors in the “pandemic” to seniority integration is anyone’s guess. It’s now a wild card.

We are all far better off skipping the arbitrator and figuring this out ourselves.
There are roughly 500 pilots on CEWS.
So ACPA has 17% of its seniority list on EI/CEWS/surplus

Transat has over 70% of its seniority list on EI/CEWS/surplus

The one thing I have learned from seniority arbitration is that they mostly only care about what happens at the top of the list. That caring rapidly diminished as they move down the list.

I think we should put our two merger committees in a room. Lock the door and don’t let them out until they come to a compromise everyone hates. I’m near the top. But how an arbitrator deals with the mess at the bottom makes me uncomfortable.
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planebored
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by planebored »

Fanblade wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:36 am
planebored wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:32 pm
FL320 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:38 pm

On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).
All furloughed AC pilots continue to accrue company service entitlement for the purposes of seniority. Won't matter either way.
Using the words accrue company service and seniority in the same sentence has me confused.

Your seniority slot is fixed within our seniority list. As people retire, even though you maybe on furlough, your seniority position moves up the list.

However that has nothing to do with “company service”. A furloughed or pilot on leave, temporarily suspends accruing company service. For example a pilot on leave for 2 years. After his/her 30 year career will have 28 years of service.
The way I read it, that is not correct. The only thing you don't continue to accrue is YOS for anything pay related and vacation. Technically that person would get their "30 year anniversary" letter or whatever.
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