AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

[FL320]

Many of our colleagues have good friends or family members also working as pilots at Air Canada. I have not met so far anyone who feels entitled to a specific seat or seniority number at Air Canada. Nobody want to steal your job; many are very afraid of the outcome without OR WITH the AC purchase. Of course we also have bad apples but they don’t reflect the thinking of the entire group in my opinion.

[airboy1]

Many of our colleagues have good friends or family members also working as pilots at Air Canada. I have not met so far anyone who feels entitled to a specific seat or seniority number at Air Canada. Nobody want to steal your job; many are very afraid of the outcome without OR WITH the AC purchase. Of course we also have bad apples but they don’t reflect the thinking of the entire group in my opinion.

Agree, I actually hope we can keep seperate seniority lists and join our AC collegues to build a strong worldwide airline. I think it is very important we keep distinct seperate brands while contributing to eachothers success.

[Fanblade]

Many of our colleagues have good friends or family members also working as pilots at Air Canada. I have not met so far anyone who feels entitled to a specific seat or seniority number at Air Canada. Nobody want to steal your job; many are very afraid of the outcome without OR WITH the AC purchase. Of course we also have bad apples but they don’t reflect the thinking of the entire group in my opinion.

Agree, I actually hope we can keep seperate seniority lists and join our AC collegues to build a strong worldwide airline. I think it is very important we keep distinct seperate brands while contributing to eachothers success.

Separate brands yes.

But this has been explained repeatedly why it WILL be one list.

[TFTMB heavy]

That is what it will be. Starting point will have to be determined, I have no doubt TS will want top of the list start point, AC will probably want a wage comparable start point. The arbitrator will apply a few corrections, find somewhere in between and everyone will say they got screwed... a few fences/freezes for a period of time...

But let's see the deal go through first. I wonder if Group Mach is still out there? 6$ is a steal from what they had in mind before...

Can't wait to see people who were my FO's at Jazz, and bailed the AC brand for TS end up being my Captains!

Oh joy.

There's your first problem. You decided to be loyal to an outfit that doesn't actually award loyalty, and you're upset that people who saw that before you and bailed for greener pastures, may not only be potentially superior to you, but they also got the fun ride of living the life in a vacation airline to boot. I can understand the envy.

You'll learn eventually that loyalty is a two way street, not the one way let-me-fist-you-endlessly approach that AC is so notoriously famous for doing to its employees and express constituents indirectly.

Had this been a faithful saga about Loyalty, you'd gone to Jazz, with DOH, and this wouldn't even be a discussion at this point. But then again, why should a kid who went to Seneca 2 years back and was flowed through Jazz to AC, be sitting left seat to a TS 330 Captain of 20 years? There's that discussion too if you want to open up the real sentiment about what's wrong with our industry. Then you have the FL280's that think AC pilot's are king and should just be able to flow to Nasa if they so believe. It's moments like this, where it's hard to feel sorry for that MOA you guys just passed. You did it to yourselves because of a short-sighted approach regarding layoffs. Now you've opened up the can of worms, and I'd be hardpressed if I didn't believe CR wants to close the deal asap so that the dealings of the new scope can be put into full force. For the COLLECTIVE group's sake, I hope I am wrong, but nothing surprises me with that man. And what can you do about it? Grieve it I guess. You know the TS pilot's will happily accept a few tweaks to their recent passed TA to basically be a Rouge contract.

On the other hand, it is nice to see some reasonable sentiment by a few AC guys. Realistically, we all know the final outcome will be that no one will be happy and you'll have some TS and AC fanboys that will be offended by the merger even if you gave them the world.

Ultimately 700 pilot's with the impeding fatigue rules around the corner, will be a fart in a hurricane when you look back in 30 years and all this shit has blown over.

Good Luck Everyone.

Nope

[FL320]

Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.

On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).

[planebored]

Many of our colleagues have good friends or family members also working as pilots at Air Canada. I have not met so far anyone who feels entitled to a specific seat or seniority number at Air Canada. Nobody want to steal your job; many are very afraid of the outcome without OR WITH the AC purchase. Of course we also have bad apples but they don’t reflect the thinking of the entire group in my opinion.

Agree, I actually hope we can keep seperate seniority lists and join our AC collegues to build a strong worldwide airline. I think it is very important we keep distinct seperate brands while contributing to eachothers success.

No

[planebored]

Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.

On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).

All furloughed AC pilots continue to accrue company service entitlement for the purposes of seniority. Won't matter either way.

[Daniel Cooper]

I don't think they do

[Daniel Cooper]

A quick look at the Transat seniority list reveals that even it is not strictly DOH based.

[JoeyBarton]

I don't think they do

Of course we do

[Fanblade]

Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.

On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).

All furloughed AC pilots continue to accrue company service entitlement for the purposes of seniority. Won't matter either way.

Using the words accrue company service and seniority in the same sentence has me confused.

Your seniority slot is fixed within our seniority list. As people retire, even though you maybe on furlough, your seniority position moves up the list.

However that has nothing to do with “company service”. A furloughed or pilot on leave, temporarily suspends accruing company service. For example a pilot on leave for 2 years. After his/her 30 year career will have 28 years of service.

[Fanblade]

Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.

On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).

It is great Transat is using CEWS. There are rumours under the new CEWS the AC furloughs might be coming back as well. That would also be great.

But it won’t be fooling an arbitrator one way or the other. CEWS is simply EI for a pandemic. It is trying to keep people on payroll who are not actually required. Anyone on EI, CEWS or even still employed but showing surplus is in the same boat.

We have just under 800 on EI/surplus. How many does Transat have on EI, CEWS or showing surplus?

How an arbitrator factors in the “pandemic” to seniority integration is anyone’s guess. It’s now a wild card.

We are all far better off skipping the arbitrator and figuring this out ourselves.

[FL320]

Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.

On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).

It is great Transat is using CEWS. There are rumours under the new CEWS the AC furloughs might be coming back as well. That would also be great.

But it won’t be fooling an arbitrator one way or the other. CEWS is simply EI for a pandemic. It is trying to keep people on payroll who are not actually required. Anyone on EI, CEWS or even still employed but showing surplus is in the same boat.

We have just under 800 on EI/surplus. How many does Transat have on EI, CEWS or showing surplus?

How an arbitrator factors in the “pandemic” to seniority integration is anyone’s guess. It’s now a wild card.

We are all far better off skipping the arbitrator and figuring this out ourselves.

There are roughly 500 pilots on CEWS.

[Fanblade]

On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).

It is great Transat is using CEWS. There are rumours under the new CEWS the AC furloughs might be coming back as well. That would also be great.

But it won’t be fooling an arbitrator one way or the other. CEWS is simply EI for a pandemic. It is trying to keep people on payroll who are not actually required. Anyone on EI, CEWS or even still employed but showing surplus is in the same boat.

We have just under 800 on EI/surplus. How many does Transat have on EI, CEWS or showing surplus?

How an arbitrator factors in the “pandemic” to seniority integration is anyone’s guess. It’s now a wild card.

We are all far better off skipping the arbitrator and figuring this out ourselves.

There are roughly 500 pilots on CEWS.

So ACPA has 17% of its seniority list on EI/CEWS/surplus

Transat has over 70% of its seniority list on EI/CEWS/surplus

The one thing I have learned from seniority arbitration is that they mostly only care about what happens at the top of the list. That caring rapidly diminished as they move down the list.

I think we should put our two merger committees in a room. Lock the door and don’t let them out until they come to a compromise everyone hates. I’m near the top. But how an arbitrator deals with the mess at the bottom makes me uncomfortable.

[planebored]

On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).

All furloughed AC pilots continue to accrue company service entitlement for the purposes of seniority. Won't matter either way.

Using the words accrue company service and seniority in the same sentence has me confused.

Your seniority slot is fixed within our seniority list. As people retire, even though you maybe on furlough, your seniority position moves up the list.

However that has nothing to do with “company service”. A furloughed or pilot on leave, temporarily suspends accruing company service. For example a pilot on leave for 2 years. After his/her 30 year career will have 28 years of service.

The way I read it, that is not correct. The only thing you don't continue to accrue is YOS for anything pay related and vacation. Technically that person would get their "30 year anniversary" letter or whatever.

[jetpilot]

My Opinion is for now keep Air Transat seperate give us the AC add on ( insurances and pass) let's talk back in 5 year to see where we are in that way nobody will lost seniority and we let that covid crap go away! i understand that will need a LOU special time need special agrements


jet

[Fanblade]

All furloughed AC pilots continue to accrue company service entitlement for the purposes of seniority. Won't matter either way.

Using the words accrue company service and seniority in the same sentence has me confused.

Your seniority slot is fixed within our seniority list. As people retire, even though you maybe on furlough, your seniority position moves up the list.

However that has nothing to do with “company service”. A furloughed or pilot on leave, temporarily suspends accruing company service. For example a pilot on leave for 2 years. After his/her 30 year career will have 28 years of service.

The way I read it, that is not correct. The only thing you don't continue to accrue is YOS for anything pay related and vacation. Technically that person would get their "30 year anniversary" letter or whatever.

Your initial post seemed to imply that time furloughed can’t impact seniority integration. An arbitrator doesn’t give a rats behind what is in the contract. In fact doesn’t ours say BOTL?

Many past arbitration have applied discounts for furloughed pilots during seniority integration. The Pitcher award placed furloughed AC pilots below regional pilots for one. That triggered the AC pilots leaving CALPA to avoid the merger. One of the Canadian Airlines mergers was entirely done on length of service and not DOH because of furloughs.

Furlough absolutely comes with seniority integration risks.

[Fanblade]

My Opinion is for now keep Air Transat seperate give us the AC add on ( insurances and pass) let's talk back in 5 year to see where we are in that way nobody will lost seniority and we let that covid crap go away! i understand that will need a LOU special time need special agrements


jet

So you think it’s a good idea for there to be two different pilot groups, competing with each other for work with AC management, for 5 years?

Think about it. It’s probably going on to some extent right now. What do think ACPA will be trying to achieve?

AC management will be in for sure. They would love the two pilot groups competing to get their respective pilots back first.

This is why a representation vote happens first and fast. To stop the two groups from competing. Because I guarantee you they will.

I will give you an example. Have you noticed all RP positions were removed from the AC equipment list two bids ago? Those RP positions were an Achilles Heal for AC pilots when merging with Canadian. Poof all of a sudden they are gone. AC no longer has RP’s. Coincidence? All pandemic related? Maybe.

It is a complete non starter for ACPA and should be for everyone. ACPA’s article 1 language means it can not happen without ACPA .

[altiplano]

Using the words accrue company service and seniority in the same sentence has me confused.

Your seniority slot is fixed within our seniority list. As people retire, even though you maybe on furlough, your seniority position moves up the list.

However that has nothing to do with “company service”. A furloughed or pilot on leave, temporarily suspends accruing company service. For example a pilot on leave for 2 years. After his/her 30 year career will have 28 years of service.

The way I read it, that is not correct. The only thing you don't continue to accrue is YOS for anything pay related and vacation. Technically that person would get their "30 year anniversary" letter or whatever.

Your initial post seemed to imply that time furloughed can’t impact seniority integration. An arbitrator doesn’t give a rats behind what is in the contract. In fact doesn’t ours say BOTL?

Many past arbitration have applied discounts for furloughed pilots during seniority integration. The Pitcher award placed furloughed AC pilots below regional pilots for one. That triggered the AC pilots leaving CALPA to avoid the merger. One of the Canadian Airlines mergers was entirely done on length of service and not DOH because of furloughs.

Furlough absolutely comes with seniority integration risks.

Tough to know what an arbitrator will do, but... in our contract LOA and furlough are different regarding accumulating service.

9.01.05.02
A Pilot on furlough continues to accrue Company service except for the purpose of pay progression, pension and vacation entitlement.

8.01.05
A Pilot will retain his seniority date and accrue seniority, but not service, during a LOA.

Also if you extend a furlough by LOA and deferring your recall, your service date cannot be later than any pilot junior to you.

[98 Corolla]

It probably depends on the type of LOA. For a parental LOA they still might accure service.

[Fanblade]

The only thing that will matter is what the arbitrator thinks. He/she won’t care what the contract say while integrating lists.

Repeat. What the contract says means nothing.

[planebored]

The only thing that will matter is what the arbitrator thinks. He/she won’t care what the contract say while integrating lists.

Repeat. What the contract says means nothing.

Tell that to all the AC pilots who think because our contract says BOTL, that it will be BOTL...

[FL320]

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business ... reasonable

The biggest shareholder in Air Canada and Transat A.T. Inc said on Tuesday that AC’s revised offer for the Canadian tour operator was “a very reasonable one,” given the turmoil in the aviation industry.

[Mike1985]

Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.

On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).

It is great Transat is using CEWS. There are rumours under the new CEWS the AC furloughs might be coming back as well. That would also be great.

But it won’t be fooling an arbitrator one way or the other. CEWS is simply EI for a pandemic. It is trying to keep people on payroll who are not actually required. Anyone on EI, CEWS or even still employed but showing surplus is in the same boat.

We have just under 800 on EI/surplus. How many does Transat have on EI, CEWS or showing surplus?

How an arbitrator factors in the “pandemic” to seniority integration is anyone’s guess. It’s now a wild card.

We are all far better off skipping the arbitrator and figuring this out ourselves.

Whats the source of the rumour that AC is considering the new CEWS for the furloughed pilots?

[200Above]

I'd also like to know the source. First I've heard of it. Rotten luck to be the only group without CEWS.

Edit to add.... The fact that we are getting information regarding pension buy backs today, tells me AC has no plan of putting us back on CEWS (in other words, having equal pension contributions) Hope I'm wrong.