AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

[ahramin]

Doesn't the AC scope clause require the Rouge flying to be done by pilots on the ACPA list? And doesn't it limit the size of Rouge?

[FL-280]

They could change that easily to the addition of the transat pilots.... You guys seem really protective of the Air Canada pilots flying... I wonder why lol

[flyinhigh]

I don’t know anyone that is protective of any flying. Asking a question about scope and responding that way is juvenile.

Also, your right. Scope can be reopened and changed, but do you really want the company opening what AC pilots have fought tooth and nail for, for so long.

Personally, I’d keep the company away from that as much as possible.

Also, if you think an arbitrator will limit what aircraft/company a pilot group is limited to than your dreaming. Look no further than when the westjet pilots acquired swoop. To get it done right, the parties need to come to an agreement that is somewhat far to both parties Or this will get dragged out and there will be tonnes if Canadian animosity again.

They could change that easily to the addition of the transat pilots.... You guys seem really protective of the Air Canada pilots flying... I wonder why lol

[FL-280]

Obviously this would be a negotiated setlement where cooler heads would prevail..... an arbitrator wont limit what aircraft TS pilots could fly. But would most likely cut 3-6 years seniority off everyone.... is that what the ts group wants?
We are just guessing here man, my guess is as good as yours....

[Duke Point]

Any "hold Transat pilots at Rouge" scenario sounds messy.

Serious "common employer" issues may arise.

Just use FAIR seniority integration ratios that don't clearly advantage or disadvantage any group. No scope adjustment...ever. That's a Pandora's Box waiting to erupt. Article One is the first Article for a reason. Don't screw with it. One list.

Transat pilots had career expectations, so do AC pilots...…..neither groups expectations should be seriously impacted by the merger.

DP.

[DanWEC]

As far as I can see there are 3 main elements on the aviation side of Transat: Pilots, Tails, and Routes.

Given the restrictions, the most viable solution would be to merge Transat pilots into AC mainline.
The tails, add them to mainline and/or replace old 767 and 319 at Rouge as dictated by scope #'s.
AC needs pilots, and they want to expand overall. I don't believe there is anything saying mainline can't expand. However, if they do could they ask for proportionality for Rouge?

The Transat routes (The ones left after the Competition bureau makes their demands) get homologated into both Rouge and Mainline networks as fit. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to keep Transat flying as it's own scheduling entity if rates and conditions were the same as mainline.

Rouge pilots stays Rouge (Good for the guys there!) tails #'s stay the same, and all other scope requirements are met.

The Transat brand and office, which is being kept, may exist in a lesser form to deliver a different style of product from Rouge or AC Vacations (Which both blow.) But the pilots would simply have to be mainline.

Seniority for the merger will likely be a bit of a compromise ratio where they both give a little. There's only 600 at TS, very evenly spread, hiring every month, and isn't AC about 3500 and hiring 20-50 a month? Even slotted in 1:1 nobody would even notice, you'd have a proportional number of TS guys under you as above, so some of you guys have to chill, but that likely won't happen and would have to be worked out.

Of course there would be some mobility options and plenty of other details to hash out... such as silly hats.

[FL-280]

3500 pilots at AC? You are lost man, and there is no way in bloody hell they are slotting in 1:1 lol

[98 Corolla]

The AC pilot demographics are somewhat junior weighted because of huge hiring for the last few years. Having almost all TS pilots slot ahead of this wave would be hugely advantageous for them.

[DanWEC]

3500 pilots at AC? You are lost man, and there is no way in bloody hell they are slotting in 1:1 lol

Actual words from me:

but that likely won't happen

Anyhow I assumed there were about 3500 now, given in 2011 there were 3050. Just guessing. It's irrelevant.

[FL-280]

4500....

[altiplano]

There are fences all the time in seniority mergers. No blue pilot can bid a mainline seat for 5 years, or no 777/787 for 6 years, that kind of thing. We'll all be on the same list, opening scope or allowing the corp to play us off each other hurts us all...

It will be a ratio of some sort with adjustment for pay/contract/career expectations. Lots of guys at AC <10 years, maybe about 1/3, but plenty of guys >20 years, >40 years even... I'd hardly call it a junior weighted list.

[ahramin]

Exactly. In the case of fences, it's to the benefit of the company and to the benefit of the current AC pilots to keep the fences up as long as possible. In the case of FL-280's suggestion that Rouge grow by 50 tails and the only benefit to the AC pilots is a permanent fence, it's a massive benefit to the company and a big loss of opportunity for both pilot groups.

TS is bringing 50 tails and the routes and passengers for those tails. I hope there aren't too many pilots at AC that are willing to modify their scope clause in order to see those tails at Rouge rather than mainline, all just to spite the TS pilots with no benefits to themselves. This is a big opportunity for both pilot groups to get all sorts of improvements to the final collective agreement for the merged group. Or that negotiating capital can be spent making sure the socially inferior blue group doesn't benefit. I'm sure I know which one AC management is hoping for.

[Jean-Pierre]

I'd hardly call it a junior weighted list.

If you have 4500 pilots and hired 1000 in the last two years how can you not be junior weighted? That is almost 1/4 of your list and if the rest is more or less evenly spaced it brings the average years of service way down.

[FL-280]

TS doesnt have 50 tails.... it’s more like 35 when you take out all the 310 and classic 737s....
plus some leases that are power by the hour and AC probably wont want to pay for for that.

[ahramin]

And would you rather have those tails at mainline or Rouge?

[speedah]

Anyone who even considers giving up scope to protect "their airplane" should be dragged out back and beaten.

All the widebody captains are out to lunch thinking they are at risk... I highly doubt any 777 787 or a330 capt is going to lose their seat if they went DOH... they are all under 1000 seniority. The Transat list is not that senior, maybe a few guys would slot in, if that.

If people are willing to give up scope... flat pay will look like a dream.

[ahramin]

Flat pay? At AC? Is this being considered? The current collective agreement is about as far from flat pay as you can get. Was flat pay discussed during the last negotiations?

[indieadventurer]

Flat pay? At AC? Is this being considered? The current collective agreement is about as far from flat pay as you can get. Was flat pay discussed during the last negotiations?

Think he’s talking about the first 4 years of “flat pay” vs formula pay after that, not status pay.

[ahramin]

Ah of course. Sorry.

[Duke Point]

Anyone who even considers giving up scope to protect "their airplane" should be dragged out back and beaten.

All the widebody captains are out to lunch thinking they are at risk... I highly doubt any 777 787 or a330 capt is going to lose their seat if they went DOH... they are all under 1000 seniority. The Transat list is not that senior, maybe a few guys would slot in, if that.

If people are willing to give up scope... flat pay will look like a dream.

No new list will see a DOH Transat merge.

Air Canada doesn't use DOH, so I don't think they would change the rules and accommodate a DOH merger from a Transat. DOH is a non-starter under any circumstance, so talking about it, or considering it is pointless.

It will be interesting to see where the Number 1 Transat pilot does slot in. That will determine where the ratio blending will begin. My bet is that #1 at Transat will be somewhere around the 700-800 mark, so as not to jump the wide-body cue too badly. Being number one doesn't mean they are immediately entitled to a cherry 777 blockholder position.

DP.