Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Covid related topics that are connected to travel or the aviation industry.
Vaticinator
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:29 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by Vaticinator »

You still need an aviation medical to be a pilot. Why aren’t you people choosing that as the bridge to die on in this silly “mah freedumb” movement?
Interesting choice of words for a poor analogy. I agree that many of the "reasons" for not wanting the vaccine are silly and dumb, in my opinion. But I'm not so emotionally attached to that opinion that I conflate it with an individual's personal autonomy to make that choice for themselves. Those are two very different things that shouldn't be confused in this discussion.

The purpose of aviation medicals is to detect a condition that could lead to a flight crew medical emergency and in turn, pose a risk to the safety of flight by impeding that individual's ability to do their job safely and effectively. That is in no way similar to a vaccine.
Freedom of equitable opportunity doesn’t exist. It’s never existed. Where’s the equal opportunity for someone who doesn’t have a driver’s license? Someone who doesn’t have a passport? A social insurance number? There are people who don’t have any of those.. those things that didn’t exist until someone in the government decided they should and society evolved around them, pushing those without further away. Where were the cries of fascism, then?
I believe you are correct. I don't believe true equality of opportunity exists, yet. However, it is one of the cornerstones that our society is supposedly built on and it's something that as a society we have been striving for for some time, even more so in recent years. It's a goal we should be trying to move ever closer to, as opposed to father away from.

Driver's licenses, passports, social insurance numbers? Just because not everyone has one, doesn't mean that there are mandates in place to prevent whole arbitrary segments of the population from getting them. Quite the opposite in fact. The opportunity exists for anyone to get those things.
We are in the middle of a pandemic and the government is reacting in the best interests of the people. Hospital ERs and ICUs are not filling up—they are full—of COVID-19 patients the huge majority of them unvaccinated. Less than 20% of the population accounts for nearly all of the beds that are taken.. and are going to outlying hospitals or in the case of Alberta, several provinces away.

That’s where your rights to work a job where you come into contact with multiple people or to go into crowded venues as an unvaccinated person end.
By saying we are "in the middle of a pandemic" implies that there is an end to this. I don't believe this to be the case, and I've read multiple articles citing numerous government officials and scientists who also believe that, while not impossible, it is highly unlikely that we will ever fully eradicate covid. I think we would all do well to stop thinking that we are in a pandemic, and start realizing that we are instead in a reality where there is one additional, rather minor risk of disease.

Furthermore, the argument that unvaccinated people pose a risk to others is absolutely true. However, everyone does, regardless of vaccination status, as fully vaccinated people can also transmit the virus. There is no moral high ground here, and thus, no basis for mandating someone else's choices. Make no mistake, even though I am fully vaccinated, when I walk in to the grocery store I could potentially be putting anyone else I come near at risk, if I myself have encountered the virus within a certain window of time.

And yes, covid has placed additional strain on our health care system. How much exactly seems to be the subject of some debate and it's difficult to filter out the signal from the noise, when articles on both sides have been published and later found out to be outright lies. Anecdotally, I have multiple family members that are health care workers and they seem to all be experiencing increased stress on the job as a result. However, there have always been many, many large scale health issues in the population that are easily preventable and yet remain unchecked and are allowed to continue to place tremendous strain on our system. For instance, every year 158,700 Canadian adults are diagnosed with heart disease, placing an obviously large pressure on the health care system. Yet, it's estimated that the risk of heart disease could be reduced by up to 60% just by making healthy lifestyle choices. Should the government mandate that we all get a minimum of 30 minutes of cardiovascular exercise per day or that we all must eat one salad per day or that no one should be allowed to drink sugary drinks or eat fatty foods? Doing so would clearly lessen the burden on the health care system. Why is it ok for people who don't exercise, don't eat healthy food, smoke, drink, do drugs, etc to burden the system? Should we continue to let them make these poor choices even though the decades of established science that they are willfully ignoring shows that they are killing themselves and burdening the system?
Nobody is interested in control. Lol. Control what? You people are uninteresting and most government workers and officials would rather you just did your own thing and not bother anyone. A good method of control is to sedate and paralyze someone, strap them to a bed, and put sensors all over their body and tubes up every orifice. So why are they trying to keep that from happening?
It may not be about control, but it most certainly is about compliance. And that's because most people are not thinking critically and instead operating on fear. Rather than look for the readily available, government produced statistics about the actual risks of covid, they are choosing a lazy and irrational thought pattern based purely on emotion. For some reason, people are placing their faith in the government to protect them from what they perceive to be a major risk, when the reality is that they are abdicating their personal responsibility for a risk that is in fact quite small and placing their faith in a government that has failed us repeatedly since the onset of covid. To illustrate, consider that very early on it became apparent that covid was overwhelmingly only a serious risk to the elderly and those with underlying medical conditions. According to information on the health Canada website, only 2133 people under the age of 60 have died from covid. That's 0.007% of the population. Furthermore, according to the CDC, only roughly 6% of fatalities have no co-morbidities. That's 128 healthy people under the age of 60. That's 0.0004% of the population. That is extremely low risk for anyone who makes an effort to live a healthy lifestyle. But rather than protecting the vulnerable and educating and informing everyone else of the risks and allowing them to make whatever decisions they are comfortable with based on data and their own personal appetite for risk, the government has only imposed blanket solutions based on fear and emotion that have repeatedly failed us. And now, after all the data we have about the risks, and the known fact that the vaccines do not prevent transmission, they are continuing to fail us with another weak blanket solution and doubling down by mandating compliance. People believe in compliance with a religious fervor, but it's a belief based on faulty data. There is no end to covid and the vaccines, while a useful tool, are not 100% effective and do not prevent transmission. That's not to say you shouldn't get vaccinated. But you can't base your beliefs about compliance on faulty premises and willful ignorance.
When unvaccinated individuals are the direct cause of this healthcare emergency with their willful ignorance and behaviour, it’s no different than scolding a child or apprehending a criminal. For the greater good of society or even the individual themselves, action has to be taken.
First, people who do not choose to get vaccinated or people like myself who are vaccinated but do not believe in mandates, are most certainly not the direct cause of this situation. Keep in mind that there was no vaccine during the entirety of the worst of the last 2 years. The horse was long out of the barn before vaccines were even an option. And vaccines or not, there is likely no point at which covid will become extinct.

Finally, if one is truly interested in the greater good of society, they wouldn't be so flippant as to compare their fellow, presumably law-abiding citizens to criminals. That kind of rhetoric is extremely dangerous and a hallmark of authoritarianism. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that we're going to wake up next week to find ourselves in a Fascist regime. But if you've ever read any biographies or accounts of people who have survived such things, you'll find that people don't arrive at that place overnight. It happens by degrees and always under the guise of "for the greater good." With 92 million fatalities over the last century, these ideologies are far, far more deadly than covid. We may all have to make some sacrifices to give everyone a fair shot at a normal, healthy life with covid floating around. But some things must remain sacred and some lines must never be crossed. One of those is the right to personal, bodily autonomy. If someone can take that from you, or worse yet, have you willfully give it to them, everything else you have is pointless.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Inverted2
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3692
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Turdistan

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by Inverted2 »

Gas prices are down too. Won’t matter in a couple months when half of us are laid off because of this HOAX. :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Let’s Go Brandon
Inverted2
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3692
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Turdistan

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by Inverted2 »

CYERCaptainPooping wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:07 pm
TG wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:54 am
trey kule wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:36 am How is this new variant entering Canada when only vaccinated people are being allowed to travel.
Who said that any Covid vaccin would be 100% effective against a new variant?
Does the science recommend getting the booster now, or should I wait till 2022 for the Moderna omniunicorn variant booster? Or should I get a booster now and the unicorn booster in 4 months? Or will the omniunicorn shot be two doses. So booster now, then in 4 months new vaccine first dose, then 28 days and get the second dose?
Just get the new IV drip. Then you can have that effective juice in your body 24/7.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Let’s Go Brandon
JayVee
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:24 pm

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by JayVee »

Vaticinator wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:24 pm
You still need an aviation medical to be a pilot. Why aren’t you people choosing that as the bridge to die on in this silly “mah freedumb” movement?
Interesting choice of words for a poor analogy. I agree that many of the "reasons" for not wanting the vaccine are silly and dumb, in my opinion. But I'm not so emotionally attached to that opinion that I conflate it with an individual's personal autonomy to make that choice for themselves. Those are two very different things that shouldn't be confused in this discussion.

The purpose of aviation medicals is to detect a condition that could lead to a flight crew medical emergency and in turn, pose a risk to the safety of flight by impeding that individual's ability to do their job safely and effectively. That is in no way similar to a vaccine.
Freedom of equitable opportunity doesn’t exist. It’s never existed. Where’s the equal opportunity for someone who doesn’t have a driver’s license? Someone who doesn’t have a passport? A social insurance number? There are people who don’t have any of those.. those things that didn’t exist until someone in the government decided they should and society evolved around them, pushing those without further away. Where were the cries of fascism, then?
I believe you are correct. I don't believe true equality of opportunity exists, yet. However, it is one of the cornerstones that our society is supposedly built on and it's something that as a society we have been striving for for some time, even more so in recent years. It's a goal we should be trying to move ever closer to, as opposed to father away from.

Driver's licenses, passports, social insurance numbers? Just because not everyone has one, doesn't mean that there are mandates in place to prevent whole arbitrary segments of the population from getting them. Quite the opposite in fact. The opportunity exists for anyone to get those things.
We are in the middle of a pandemic and the government is reacting in the best interests of the people. Hospital ERs and ICUs are not filling up—they are full—of COVID-19 patients the huge majority of them unvaccinated. Less than 20% of the population accounts for nearly all of the beds that are taken.. and are going to outlying hospitals or in the case of Alberta, several provinces away.

That’s where your rights to work a job where you come into contact with multiple people or to go into crowded venues as an unvaccinated person end.
By saying we are "in the middle of a pandemic" implies that there is an end to this. I don't believe this to be the case, and I've read multiple articles citing numerous government officials and scientists who also believe that, while not impossible, it is highly unlikely that we will ever fully eradicate covid. I think we would all do well to stop thinking that we are in a pandemic, and start realizing that we are instead in a reality where there is one additional, rather minor risk of disease.

Furthermore, the argument that unvaccinated people pose a risk to others is absolutely true. However, everyone does, regardless of vaccination status, as fully vaccinated people can also transmit the virus. There is no moral high ground here, and thus, no basis for mandating someone else's choices. Make no mistake, even though I am fully vaccinated, when I walk in to the grocery store I could potentially be putting anyone else I come near at risk, if I myself have encountered the virus within a certain window of time.

And yes, covid has placed additional strain on our health care system. How much exactly seems to be the subject of some debate and it's difficult to filter out the signal from the noise, when articles on both sides have been published and later found out to be outright lies. Anecdotally, I have multiple family members that are health care workers and they seem to all be experiencing increased stress on the job as a result. However, there have always been many, many large scale health issues in the population that are easily preventable and yet remain unchecked and are allowed to continue to place tremendous strain on our system. For instance, every year 158,700 Canadian adults are diagnosed with heart disease, placing an obviously large pressure on the health care system. Yet, it's estimated that the risk of heart disease could be reduced by up to 60% just by making healthy lifestyle choices. Should the government mandate that we all get a minimum of 30 minutes of cardiovascular exercise per day or that we all must eat one salad per day or that no one should be allowed to drink sugary drinks or eat fatty foods? Doing so would clearly lessen the burden on the health care system. Why is it ok for people who don't exercise, don't eat healthy food, smoke, drink, do drugs, etc to burden the system? Should we continue to let them make these poor choices even though the decades of established science that they are willfully ignoring shows that they are killing themselves and burdening the system?
Nobody is interested in control. Lol. Control what? You people are uninteresting and most government workers and officials would rather you just did your own thing and not bother anyone. A good method of control is to sedate and paralyze someone, strap them to a bed, and put sensors all over their body and tubes up every orifice. So why are they trying to keep that from happening?
It may not be about control, but it most certainly is about compliance. And that's because most people are not thinking critically and instead operating on fear. Rather than look for the readily available, government produced statistics about the actual risks of covid, they are choosing a lazy and irrational thought pattern based purely on emotion. For some reason, people are placing their faith in the government to protect them from what they perceive to be a major risk, when the reality is that they are abdicating their personal responsibility for a risk that is in fact quite small and placing their faith in a government that has failed us repeatedly since the onset of covid. To illustrate, consider that very early on it became apparent that covid was overwhelmingly only a serious risk to the elderly and those with underlying medical conditions. According to information on the health Canada website, only 2133 people under the age of 60 have died from covid. That's 0.007% of the population. Furthermore, according to the CDC, only roughly 6% of fatalities have no co-morbidities. That's 128 healthy people under the age of 60. That's 0.0004% of the population. That is extremely low risk for anyone who makes an effort to live a healthy lifestyle. But rather than protecting the vulnerable and educating and informing everyone else of the risks and allowing them to make whatever decisions they are comfortable with based on data and their own personal appetite for risk, the government has only imposed blanket solutions based on fear and emotion that have repeatedly failed us. And now, after all the data we have about the risks, and the known fact that the vaccines do not prevent transmission, they are continuing to fail us with another weak blanket solution and doubling down by mandating compliance. People believe in compliance with a religious fervor, but it's a belief based on faulty data. There is no end to covid and the vaccines, while a useful tool, are not 100% effective and do not prevent transmission. That's not to say you shouldn't get vaccinated. But you can't base your beliefs about compliance on faulty premises and willful ignorance.
When unvaccinated individuals are the direct cause of this healthcare emergency with their willful ignorance and behaviour, it’s no different than scolding a child or apprehending a criminal. For the greater good of society or even the individual themselves, action has to be taken.
First, people who do not choose to get vaccinated or people like myself who are vaccinated but do not believe in mandates, are most certainly not the direct cause of this situation. Keep in mind that there was no vaccine during the entirety of the worst of the last 2 years. The horse was long out of the barn before vaccines were even an option. And vaccines or not, there is likely no point at which covid will become extinct.

Finally, if one is truly interested in the greater good of society, they wouldn't be so flippant as to compare their fellow, presumably law-abiding citizens to criminals. That kind of rhetoric is extremely dangerous and a hallmark of authoritarianism. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that we're going to wake up next week to find ourselves in a Fascist regime. But if you've ever read any biographies or accounts of people who have survived such things, you'll find that people don't arrive at that place overnight. It happens by degrees and always under the guise of "for the greater good." With 92 million fatalities over the last century, these ideologies are far, far more deadly than covid. We may all have to make some sacrifices to give everyone a fair shot at a normal, healthy life with covid floating around. But some things must remain sacred and some lines must never be crossed. One of those is the right to personal, bodily autonomy. If someone can take that from you, or worse yet, have you willfully give it to them, everything else you have is pointless.
Well said Vaticinator!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
‘Bob’
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 704
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:19 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by ‘Bob’ »

trey kule wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:36 am How is this new variant entering Canada when only vaccinated people are being allowed to travel.
For the one billionth time:

1 Vaccination isn’t 100%. Those who are vaccinated can still contract it and spread it. Just nowhere near as easily as non-vaccinated.

You know what also isn’t 100%? Condoms! I guess you were the lucky one that got by!

2 This is all for the sake of the unvaccinated so they don’t get sick and clog up the healthcare system even more than they already are. Better to be exposed to a few cases from vaccinated people than many many cases from the antivaxxers.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TELL THOMPSON WE’RE COMIN’ IN HOT!!

http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/answer ... _FAQ_.html
TG
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2090
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:32 am
Location: Around

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by TG »

‘Bob’ wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:00 am
trey kule wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:36 am How is this new variant entering Canada when only vaccinated people are being allowed to travel.
For the one billionth time:

1 Vaccination isn’t 100%. Those who are vaccinated can still contract it and spread it. Just nowhere near as easily as non-vaccinated.

You know what also isn’t 100%? Condoms! I guess you were the lucky one that got by!

2 This is all for the sake of the unvaccinated so they don’t get sick and clog up the healthcare system even more than they already are. Better to be exposed to a few cases from vaccinated people than many many cases from the antivaxxers.
Well said Bob!
JayVee wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:33 pm Well said Vaticinator!
Vaticinator is zapping the fact that maybe, just mayyyyyybe it's because of those mandates that death number are low :bear:

Mandates he/her is against to.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Vaticinator
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:29 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by Vaticinator »

Vaticinator is zapping the fact that maybe, just mayyyyyybe it's because of those mandates that death number are low :bear:

Mandates he/her is against to.
Actually, if you would have followed the government stats since the beginning of the pandemic, you'd know that those percentages have remained quite consistent since the beginning of the outbreak, well before the vaccines and mandates. The picture was rather clear from the onset. If you are under 60 and healthy, you have so little to fear from this virus that's it isn't worth worrying much about (in my opinion.) It isn't until you get into the 80+ age bracket that it is a very serious concern, as you might expect. I have no desire or need to massage or "zapp" these numbers. Feel free to present government data that contradicts my points and I'll reevaluate. I'm not emotionally attached to believing that I'm at very little risk from covid. In fact, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know, so please share whatever valid, unbiased data you have that shows otherwise. These numbers have been readily available to anyone willing to take the time to look on the government website. It is updated daily. I recommend taking a look for some perspective. The numbers I presented helped to inform my position on mandates, not the other way around.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TG
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2090
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:32 am
Location: Around

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by TG »

Vaticinator wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:43 am
Vaticinator is zapping the fact that maybe, just mayyyyyybe it's because of those mandates that death number are low :bear:

Mandates he/her is against to.
Actually, if you would have followed the government stats since the beginning of the pandemic, you'd know that those percentages have remained quite consistent since the beginning of the outbreak, well before the vaccines and mandates. The picture was rather clear from the onset. If you are under 60 and healthy, you have so little to fear from this virus that's it isn't worth worrying much about (in my opinion.) It isn't until you get into the 80+ age bracket that it is a very serious concern, as you might expect. I have no desire or need to massage or "zapp" these numbers. Feel free to present government data that contradicts my points and I'll reevaluate. I'm not emotionally attached to believing that I'm at very little risk from covid. In fact, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know, so please share whatever valid, unbiased data you have that shows otherwise. These numbers have been readily available to anyone willing to take the time to look on the government website. It is updated daily. I recommend taking a look for some perspective. The numbers I presented helped to inform my position on mandates, not the other way around.
I have zero time to dig that out and you know it.
Although I'm pretty sure I'm right that mandates ultimately limited the amount of deaths or seriously sicks no matter the age. Otherwise nothing of lockdowns, wearing masks and all that sh!t would have happened which was pretty much worldwide by the way.
But yes you are right that the older you are the worst it is.

Just have to be patient, when this pandemic ends I'm sure all kind of statistics will come laced up with theories on how things could have been done better.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Vaticinator
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:29 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by Vaticinator »

I have zero time to dig that out and you know it.
Although I'm pretty sure I'm right that mandates ultimately limited the amount of deaths or seriously sicks no matter the age.
How can you be "pretty sure" you're correct about anything if you don't take the time to examine the data? You're not even attempting to hide your biases. People won't accept that. Unwillingness to evaluate your position in the face of data indicates a lack of critical thinking. And fair enough, it's human nature to operate that way, but if you're proposing restricting people's opportunities or forcing them to be injected with medications, you need to do much, much better than "pretty sure" gut feelings and opinions based on pure emotion.

I'll save you the 5 second internet search:
https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid ... cases.html
when this pandemic ends
Cases are on the rise again, in spite of mandates, masks, lockdowns, and the 75% vaccination rate we were told would lead to herd immunity. We're no closer to an end than we were before vaccines. We need to accept that this risk is likely with us to stay, and get back to normal with a new plan that protects the vulnerable and let's those willing to accept that risk get on with life.
---------- ADS -----------
 
imjustlurking
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:12 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by imjustlurking »

Vaticinator wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:43 am
Vaticinator is zapping the fact that maybe, just mayyyyyybe it's because of those mandates that death number are low :bear:

Mandates he/her is against to.
Actually, if you would have followed the government stats since the beginning of the pandemic, you'd know that those percentages have remained quite consistent since the beginning of the outbreak, well before the vaccines and mandates. The picture was rather clear from the onset. If you are under 60 and healthy, you have so little to fear from this virus that's it isn't worth worrying much about (in my opinion.) It isn't until you get into the 80+ age bracket that it is a very serious concern, as you might expect. I have no desire or need to massage or "zapp" these numbers. Feel free to present government data that contradicts my points and I'll reevaluate. I'm not emotionally attached to believing that I'm at very little risk from covid. In fact, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know, so please share whatever valid, unbiased data you have that shows otherwise. These numbers have been readily available to anyone willing to take the time to look on the government website. It is updated daily. I recommend taking a look for some perspective. The numbers I presented helped to inform my position on mandates, not the other way around.
You are so close yet so far.

The issue for most is not the direct fear of death from COVID, but the overcrowding of the hospitals from those who are sick, clogging up resources for people who need "elective" medical care.

I put elective in quotes there because a lot of people who have elective surgeries booked aren't booking breast augmentations and nose jobs... they're booking treatments of long term life threatening illnesses.

Being vaccinated reduces your chance of being hospitalized from COVID significantly and it is proven by the fact that 50% of COVID patients in hospital are not fully vaccinated (15% of the population).

If the vaccine was not effective, the numbers would be closer to 85% of hospitalized COVID patients vaccinated and 15% not fully vaccinated.
---------- ADS -----------
 
palebird
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:17 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by palebird »

Blah blah blah..you must be an expert. You fit the current definition.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Vaticinator
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:29 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by Vaticinator »

The issue for most is not the direct fear of death from COVID, but the overcrowding of the hospitals from those who are sick, clogging up resources for people who need "elective" medical care.
Fair point. I haven't seen any actual data beyond anecdotal news stories that suggests we're at that point, but maybe we are. I'll concede the point. But as I've already pointed out, our system was already rife with very avoidable stressors long before covid, and as of yet there have not been any moves towards mandating simple healthy lifestyle choices that would permanently reduce strain on the system. In fact, our system is built on the fact that people are free to make unhealthy choices, and most do. Why should a virus that targets the sick and the old be any different?

And why is our government only pursuing the vaccines as an answer to this problem? Why are they sticking to this paradigm that says that covid can be eradicated, when all evidence indicates otherwise. They are trotting out the same old impotent tactics again and again. They are failing us in a huge way by refusing to pivot in the face of the evidence. Why are they not investing in infrastructure to make rapid tests free and available? Why are they not investing in tactics and infrastructure to protect the most vulnerable segments of the population? Why are they not investing in increasing the current health care infrastructure so that when they finally do come to terms with the permanence of covid, our system can operate without being overwhelmed? Our leaders should be ashamed at what terrible "leadership" they are displaying. They are doing the bare minimum required to give the appearance of dealing with the problem, when in reality they are putting in a lazy effort with their "nobody moves, nobody gets hurt" mentality and making public scapegoats out of the unvaccinated.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Bingo Fuel
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:51 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by Bingo Fuel »

Sure. I'll respond to this. I don't know much about other provinces, but at least for Ontario:
Vaticinator wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:52 am And why is our government only pursuing the vaccines as an answer to this problem?
There are lots of treatment options currently in clinical trials.
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/ ... rials.html
Why are they not investing in infrastructure to make rapid tests free and available?
https://covid-19.ontario.ca/get-free-rapid-tests
Why are they not investing in tactics and infrastructure to protect the most vulnerable segments of the population?
https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1000 ... -residents

https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/6061 ... g-covid-19
Why are they not investing in increasing the current health care infrastructure so that when they finally do come to terms with the permanence of covid, our system can operate without being overwhelmed?
https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1000 ... nd-repairs

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-to-cr ... -1.5688483

Now I'm no fan of Doug Ford, but I hope this will show that he's at least tried to do many of the things you've suggested. Much of it is too little, too late. I certainly don't plan on voting for him next year, because our provincial government should be doing even more, but to say they're doing nothing is disingenuous.

EDIT: For example, probably should have done something before having to lay off 97 nurses last fall.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/ontar ... -1.5117270

Even with all these mandates, mitigations, and vaccinations, it is still not enough. Here is what the Ontario Science Table has to say, from a report published yesterday:
The critical care system does not currently have capacity to accommodate a surge as it did during waves 2 and 3 due to worsening staffing shortages, healthcare worker burnout, and health system recovery efforts. Public health measures to mitigate influxes of critically ill patients are needed.
Full report here:
https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/science ... -pandemic/
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Bingo Fuel on Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
cdnavater
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1316
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:25 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by cdnavater »

Vaticinator wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:52 am
The issue for most is not the direct fear of death from COVID, but the overcrowding of the hospitals from those who are sick, clogging up resources for people who need "elective" medical care.
Fair point. I haven't seen any actual data beyond anecdotal news stories that suggests we're at that point, but maybe we are. I'll concede the point. But as I've already pointed out, our system was already rife with very avoidable stressors long before covid, and as of yet there have not been any moves towards mandating simple healthy lifestyle choices that would permanently reduce strain on the system. In fact, our system is built on the fact that people are free to make unhealthy choices, and most do. Why should a virus that targets the sick and the old be any different?

And why is our government only pursuing the vaccines as an answer to this problem? Why are they sticking to this paradigm that says that covid can be eradicated, when all evidence indicates otherwise. They are trotting out the same old impotent tactics again and again. They are failing us in a huge way by refusing to pivot in the face of the evidence. Why are they not investing in infrastructure to make rapid tests free and available? Why are they not investing in tactics and infrastructure to protect the most vulnerable segments of the population? Why are they not investing in increasing the current health care infrastructure so that when they finally do come to terms with the permanence of covid, our system can operate without being overwhelmed? Our leaders should be ashamed at what terrible "leadership" they are displaying. They are doing the bare minimum required to give the appearance of dealing with the problem, when in reality they are putting in a lazy effort with their "nobody moves, nobody gets hurt" mentality and making public scapegoats out of the unvaccinated.
https://www.cma.ca/news-releases-and-st ... ce-use-new

“Among its findings is an estimate that more than 4,000 people died between August and December 2020 as a result of delayed or cancelled health-care services from hospitals dealing with COVID-19 patients.”
---------- ADS -----------
 
TG
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2090
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:32 am
Location: Around

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by TG »

Vaticinator wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:30 am
I have zero time to dig that out and you know it.
Although I'm pretty sure I'm right that mandates ultimately limited the amount of deaths or seriously sicks no matter the age.
How can you be "pretty sure" you're correct about anything if you don't take the time to examine the data? You're not even attempting to hide your biases. People won't accept that. Unwillingness to evaluate your position in the face of data indicates a lack of critical thinking. And fair enough, it's human nature to operate that way, but if you're proposing restricting people's opportunities or forcing them to be injected with medications, you need to do much, much better than "pretty sure" gut feelings and opinions based on pure emotion.

I'll save you the 5 second internet search:
https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid ... cases.html
when this pandemic ends
Cases are on the rise again, in spite of mandates, masks, lockdowns, and the 75% vaccination rate we were told would lead to herd immunity. We're no closer to an end than we were before vaccines. We need to accept that this risk is likely with us to stay, and get back to normal with a new plan that protects the vulnerable and let's those willing to accept that risk get on with life.
How can I be pretty sure? I said it why!
But you conveniently forgot to include that while quoting me (Talking about biases) To throw your "superior thinking" :roll:

Otherwise nothing of lockdowns, wearing masks and all that sh!t would have happened which was pretty much worldwide by the way.

It's just putting 2 and 2 together....
---------- ADS -----------
 
Vaticinator
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:29 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by Vaticinator »

Bingo Fuel wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:12 pm Sure. I'll respond to this. I don't know much about other provinces, but at least for Ontario:

There are lots of treatment options currently in clinical trials.
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/ ... rials.html

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/get-free-rapid-tests

https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1000 ... -residents

https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/6061 ... g-covid-19

https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1000 ... nd-repairs

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-to-cr ... -1.5688483

Now I'm no fan of Doug Ford, but I hope this will show that he's at least tried to do many of the things you've suggested. Much of it is too little, too late. I certainly don't plan on voting for him next year, because our provincial government should be doing even more, but to say they're doing nothing is disingenuous.

EDIT: For example, probably should have done something before having to lay off 97 nurses last fall.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/ontar ... -1.5117270

Even with all these mandates, mitigations, and vaccinations, it is still not enough. Here is what the Ontario Science Table has to say, from a report published yesterday:
The critical care system does not currently have capacity to accommodate a surge as it did during waves 2 and 3 due to worsening staffing shortages, healthcare worker burnout, and health system recovery efforts. Public health measures to mitigate influxes of critically ill patients are needed.
Full report here:
https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/science ... -pandemic/
Thanks for digging all that up. Very interesting. It seems like Doug Ford is actually taking action finally and hopefully all those announced measures come to fruition for the people of Ontario. We should be so lucky where I live.

My critique of the government was directed more at the federal level. (Apologies for not being clear on that.) When you read the summary of what the feds are doing (https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/ ... id-19.html) it sure seems like an awful lot of feathers and no chicken. I'm not a Trudeau hater, but in my opinion, this situation has revealed him to be a dithering weakling at a time when we needed a decisive man of action.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Bingo Fuel
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:51 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by Bingo Fuel »

Vaticinator wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:04 pm My critique of the government was directed more at the federal level. (Apologies for not being clear on that.)
Precisely, aside from the ongoing clinical trials, everything else you mentioned is provincial jurisdiction. Especially health care.

The federal government can transfer funds to provinces and ask them nicely to do it, but ultimately it is the provincial government's job to implement it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
"Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
ReserveTank
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 493
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:32 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by ReserveTank »

Inverted2 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:53 pm
CYERCaptainPooping wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:07 pm
TG wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:54 am

Who said that any Covid vaccin would be 100% effective against a new variant?
Does the science recommend getting the booster now, or should I wait till 2022 for the Moderna omniunicorn variant booster? Or should I get a booster now and the unicorn booster in 4 months? Or will the omniunicorn shot be two doses. So booster now, then in 4 months new vaccine first dose, then 28 days and get the second dose?
Just get the new IV drip. Then you can have that effective juice in your body 24/7.
You know that will be a trend on IG. Duck face, thick glasses, IV in the soy-fed arm.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Vaticinator
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:29 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by Vaticinator »

https://www.cma.ca/news-releases-and-st ... ce-use-new

“Among its findings is an estimate that more than 4,000 people died between August and December 2020 as a result of delayed or cancelled health-care services from hospitals dealing with COVID-19 patients.”
That would be quite tragic, if it were accurate. But for starters, I can't actually find that direct quote anywhere in the linked site, or the subsequently linked report. In fact, if you run a search for the phrase "as a result" on either site, you get zero incidences on the above link, and only two in the actual report, neither of which are in the sections discussing "excess deaths." This report doesn't really pass the sniff test for me, when I dig into it further. There are a number of very problematic red flags here. First, there is no transparency on the purpose or methodology, no definitions of any of the terms they use, no explanation of how numbers were arrived at or how any of the data was collected. This is just speculation on my part, but it seems to read as though a firm was hired to write this report to bolster an existing position. Aside from that though, with specific regards to the Excess Deaths portion, they are arriving at this number by coming up with a forecast projection of how many deaths were expected versus an "estimate" (not even real hard data) of actual deaths. So this report in no way actually tracked how many people died directly as a result of lack of access to hospital care due to ICUs full of covid patients. Essentially, they forecasted that y number of people would die in a certain time frame and then estimated the number of actual deaths (x) and are calling x-y = excess deaths. And while they try very hard to imply the cause of excess deaths as being indirectly covid related, because they didn't actually track the real cause of the effect, they can't say what actually caused those deaths and in fact, admit that at least some of those deaths were directly due to covid. How many? We'll never know as there is no effort to differentiate. Maybe all of them, it's anyone's guess. Some quotes to illustrate that point (text in bold by me for emphasis):
While there may be several drivers of these excess deaths, delayed or missed care due to shutdowns of services
and lack of sufficient capacity in overburdened health systems may be a contributing factor.
The excess deaths include deaths with a direct connection to the pandemic (i.e., people who died after contracting
COVID-19)
as well as deaths with an indirect connection to the pandemic (i.e., people who died because the care
they needed was delayed or missed, because they were more hesitant than usual to seek care, because they were
affected by the increased incidence of mental health disorders or, substance use, or because they may have
experienced a deterioration in another determinant of health during the pandemic).
The number of deaths in Canada remained higher than expected from spring 2020 into winter 2021.
The number of excess deaths peaked alongside the pandemic waves; however, there were periods
where the volume of excess deaths persisted above the volume of COVID-19 deaths, suggesting that
either indirect pandemic-related causes or alternative causes led to a spike in deaths.
Note: Excess deaths may not exclusively be due to pandemic-related issues. For example, car accidents,
shootings, natural disasters and so on may also lead to higher-than-expected mortality.
So essentially, they took a guess at how many people would die. More people died than they expected. By their own admission, those excess deaths could be from covid itself. Or it could be from someone getting in a car accident. There is no effort to dissect that data. Basically, you could put any conceivable manner of death on a dartboard and fire away, but they would appreciate it if you would please believe that it's all because our health care system is too swamped to help people. This section of the report is really just trash that doesn't actually present any useful information at all. It's a "your guess is as good as mine" scenario framed in a way to get people to guess a certain, pre-determined way. Which is a shame, because the burden on the health care system is, in my opinion, the only argument that is compelling at all for people getting so upset about other people's personal business. The only thing it says with certainty is that more people died than they expected. And in a pandemic where a virus targets old people. Weird. Which reminds me of one last quote:
a higher share of excess deaths was reported for the elderly (aged 85 years and older).
---------- ADS -----------
 
palebird
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:17 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccines for Everyone

Post by palebird »

The genuine idiocy of the majority of the population is plain to see. And no, Bob, this does not have a happy ending. Next up..smallpox. And guess what. If you are younger than about 50 then you will be in serious trouble once smallpox gets hold of you. If anybody ever bothered to read up a little they would find that the people running this show are quite smug and transparent. The playbook is in plain view. It is just that the majority are suckers. Good luck.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Covid”