Their world is shrinking

[Posthumane]

I don't know about Quebec or UAE, but here's the Canada wide data from PHAC.

One limitation of this data is that it is an aggregate over six months where the percentage of vaccinated people changed significantly, so it's not necessarily representative of the current rate of new infections/hospitalizations/deaths, but it's better than guesses.

[CpnCrunch]

Weird that this forum blocks out the work @#$!, but not fucking.

Why the swearing fits bro? Maybe tantrums over an opinion that differs with yours is a Covid long-hauler symptom?

No, you drove me to it with your idiotic post!

[altiplano]

Right. So that's really a picture that doesn't repeatedly what is happening now, as it dates back to last year to when the first vaccines arrived.

We had an extremely slow roll out of vaccine deployment through that time period as waves of cases went through at the end of last year and early spring when virtually nobody was vaccinated. So of course unvaccinated people are the majority of cases, they represent a huge majority for the duration of the sample.

[montado]

If we accept the data as accurate is it fair to say with vaccines, covid is really no worse than the flu?

Can we go back to normal now then? Get your vaccines if you want them, and let’s move on. Really that seems to be the only logical message. Why aren’t we all doing what Alberta is doing if the evidence is showing how extremely reliable vaccines are and everyone over 12 who wants one can have one.I don’t see why the 20 percent unvaccinated make any difference in reopening besides the fact they are more likely to be hospitalized.

[Posthumane]

Although the figures from PHAC are not a snapshot of the current situation, there is certainly some info that can be eeked out from them. During the time period covered by that dataset there were approximately 1m confirmed new infections in Canada, about half before the end of march when we had vaccine coverage increase from 0 to ~5%, and about half from april-june when vaccine coverage increased from ~5% to ~40%. So while, yes, of course you would see the majority of cases to be from the unvaccinated group, if one hypothesizes that the vaccines do nothing to prevent infection you would see somewhere in the 10-15% range of cases coming from the vaccinated group. So from that you can surmise that in fact there is some protection being conferred even from mild infection.
Also, there are published figures of the Adjusted Odds Ratio of hospitalization and death amongst confirmed infections in vaccinated people compared to those in unvaccinated cases, which are 0.3 and 0.49 respectively.

Montando, I can accept your premise that Sars-Cov-2 for a vaccinated person is no more dangerous than seasonal flu, in which case any restrictions are really there to protect those who chose not to get vaccinated (or couldn't). One could argue, for those that made the choice, that it is their choice to make and society has nothing more to say on the matter. After all, we allow people to be overweight, to take part in risky activities, etc. But on the other hand we do have mandatory seatbelt and helmet laws, restrictions on harvesting food in contaminated areas, etc. which just there to protect the individuals that would choose to do those things, partly because we have a public healthcare system. So, choosing to not get vaccinated more like choosing to eat unhealthy, or is more like choosing to drive without a seatbelt?

[Arnie Pye]

According to Director Walensky, the only benefit from the vaccine now is presumably that it reduces the severity of symptoms.

If a vaccinated and non-vaccinated person have the same capacity to carry, shed and transmit the virus – with or without symptoms – then what difference does a vaccination passport or vaccination ID make?

According to the CDC TODAY, both the vaxxed and non-vaxxed person walking into a restaurant, store, group, venue or workplace present the exact same risk to other people there, so how does the presentation of proof of vaccine make any difference?

Aw, crap. All those shots do is reduce the likelihood of getting sick, straining the healthcare system and dying. What a waste of time and resources.

This the point. Masks aren't to protect me. It's to protect me from spreading it to you unvaccinated idiots. It's to prevent me from killing your grandmother. If the vast majority of people get the vaccine, then the vast majority of people will not be straining the system when someone accidentally passes this onto your grandmother.

This is about thinking bigger than just ourselves.

[garfield]

It's very simple or this covidshow will never end,

You open everything without restrictions (like Alberta).

If you're not fully vaccinated and you get sick they don't take care of you at the hospital.

What do you think will happen this winter when un-vax people get sick and fill up hospitals?

Lockdowns again. How much are you willing to bet?

[altiplano]

So, choosing to not get vaccinated more like choosing to eat unhealthy, or is more like choosing to drive without a seatbelt?

I don't think it's a precise analogue, but it's nothing like mandatory seatbelts.

The act of putting a seatbelt on or wearing a seatbelt does not have the potential to hurt you, wearing a seatbelt in itself doesn't kill people.

These treatments have been documented to hurt and kill some people.

Additionally seatbelts were invented in 1885 and refined over decades to become the modern 3-point seatbelt we recognize today and had been studied and used for years and years before they became mandatory installations in new automobiles in 1968. Even today they are not mandatory in all jurisdictions.

These products are incredibly new, they haven't gone through the years of trials and scrutiny that would be the normal course in creating such a treatment.

As for choosing to be unhealthy as a comparison? Well it is my impression that many people feel that they are choosing to be healthier by waiting or abstaining from vaccination, they are averse to the 100% risk you accept when you take one of these products and feel the slight risk, associated with slighter risk of Covid exposure is the safer bet.

Pfizer's purchase contract states:

“Purchaser acknowledges that the Vaccine and materials related to the Vaccine, and their components and constituent materials are being rapidly developed due to the emergency circumstances of the COVID-19 pandemic and will continue to be studied after provision of the Vaccine to Purchaser under this Agreement.

“Purchaser further acknowledges that the long-term effects and efficacy of the Vaccine are not currently known and that there may be adverse effects of the Vaccine that are not currently known.”

Everybody is deserved their own risk assessment.

[altiplano]

According to Director Walensky, the only benefit from the vaccine now is presumably that it reduces the severity of symptoms.

If a vaccinated and non-vaccinated person have the same capacity to carry, shed and transmit the virus – with or without symptoms – then what difference does a vaccination passport or vaccination ID make?

According to the CDC TODAY, both the vaxxed and non-vaxxed person walking into a restaurant, store, group, venue or workplace present the exact same risk to other people there, so how does the presentation of proof of vaccine make any difference?

Aw, crap. All those shots do is reduce the likelihood of getting sick, straining the healthcare system and dying. What a waste of time and resources.

This the point. Masks aren't to protect me. It's to protect me from spreading it to you unvaccinated idiots. It's to prevent me from killing your grandmother. If the vast majority of people get the vaccine, then the vast majority of people will not be straining the system when someone accidentally passes this onto your grandmother.

This is about thinking bigger than just ourselves.

You really have bought the narratives... and that's OK. You do you.

But I wonder what the 95% of cases in Israeli hospitals right now that are vaccinated are thinking?

I wonder what the experts saying you can carry and shed the virus all the same as a vaccinated person are thinking?

I'll ask you this one again as you may have missed it earlier:

Just throwing out an idea here - maybe, there is another way. If there was no COVID, there might not be a COVID policy. We don't have a Spanish Flu policy any more...

How do you propose we get rid of COVID?

Do you believe that we don't have Spanish Flu anymore?

How do you think that pandemic came to an end?

[Posthumane]

So, choosing to not get vaccinated more like choosing to eat unhealthy, or is more like choosing to drive without a seatbelt?

I don't think it's a precise analogue, but it's nothing like mandatory seatbelts.

The act of putting a seatbelt on or wearing a seatbelt does not have the potential to hurt you, wearing a seatbelt in itself doesn't kill people.

These treatments have been documented to hurt and kill some people.

Additionally seatbelts were invented in 1885 and refined over decades to become the modern 3-point seatbelt we recognize today and had been studied and used for years and years before they became mandatory installations in new automobiles in 1968. Even today they are not mandatory in all jurisdictions.

These products are incredibly new, they haven't gone through the years of trials and scrutiny that would be the normal course in creating such a treatment.

As for choosing to be unhealthy as a comparison? Well it is my impression that many people feel that they are choosing to be healthier by waiting or abstaining from vaccination, they are averse to the 100% risk you accept when you take one of these products and feel the slight risk, associated with slighter risk of Covid exposure is the safer bet.

Pfizer's purchase contract states:

“Purchaser acknowledges that the Vaccine and materials related to the Vaccine, and their components and constituent materials are being rapidly developed due to the emergency circumstances of the COVID-19 pandemic and will continue to be studied after provision of the Vaccine to Purchaser under this Agreement.

“Purchaser further acknowledges that the long-term effects and efficacy of the Vaccine are not currently known and that there may be adverse effects of the Vaccine that are not currently known.”

Everybody is deserved their own risk assessment.

The comparison is not perfect, as they never are, but they are not as different as you make them out to be.

Of course there is risk with the vaccines, but it is incorrect that seatbelts have zero chance of causing you harm. There have been numerous cases in the past where unbelted vehicle occupants survived and belted overs did not (such as some accidents where unbelted persons were thrown clear of the vehicle whereas belted persons died in a post crash fire). These were all brought up as reasons against mandatory seat belt laws when they were being implemented and while those were real events, they were few and far between. In the end it was decided that on balance the risk posed by wearing a belt was far lower than the risk posed by not wearing one, and it was made mandatory. Same thing for helmets; there are many examples where wearing helmets contributed to the injuries of a person in an accident (generally neck injuries), but far more where it prevented them.

[altiplano]

So, choosing to not get vaccinated more like choosing to eat unhealthy, or is more like choosing to drive without a seatbelt?

I don't think it's a precise analogue, but it's nothing like mandatory seatbelts.

The act of putting a seatbelt on or wearing a seatbelt does not have the potential to hurt you, wearing a seatbelt in itself doesn't kill people.

These treatments have been documented to hurt and kill some people.

Additionally seatbelts were invented in 1885 and refined over decades to become the modern 3-point seatbelt we recognize today and had been studied and used for years and years before they became mandatory installations in new automobiles in 1968. Even today they are not mandatory in all jurisdictions.

These products are incredibly new, they haven't gone through the years of trials and scrutiny that would be the normal course in creating such a treatment.

As for choosing to be unhealthy as a comparison? Well it is my impression that many people feel that they are choosing to be healthier by waiting or abstaining from vaccination, they are averse to the 100% risk you accept when you take one of these products and feel the slight risk, associated with slighter risk of Covid exposure is the safer bet.

Pfizer's purchase contract states:

“Purchaser acknowledges that the Vaccine and materials related to the Vaccine, and their components and constituent materials are being rapidly developed due to the emergency circumstances of the COVID-19 pandemic and will continue to be studied after provision of the Vaccine to Purchaser under this Agreement.

“Purchaser further acknowledges that the long-term effects and efficacy of the Vaccine are not currently known and that there may be adverse effects of the Vaccine that are not currently known.”

Everybody is deserved their own risk assessment.

The comparison is not perfect, as they never are, but they are not as different as you make them out to be.

Of course there is risk with the vaccines, but it is incorrect that seatbelts have zero chance of causing you harm. There have been numerous cases in the past where unbelted vehicle occupants survived and belted overs did not (such as some accidents where unbelted persons were thrown clear of the vehicle whereas belted persons died in a post crash fire). These were all brought up as reasons against mandatory seat belt laws when they were being implemented and while those were real events, they were few and far between. In the end it was decided that on balance the risk posed by wearing a belt was far lower than the risk posed by not wearing one, and it was made mandatory. Same thing for helmets; there are many examples where wearing helmets contributed to the injuries of a person in an accident (generally neck injuries), but far more where it prevented them.

The act of crashing is what kills people, not wearing a seatbelt in and of itself.

Seatbelts have been developed and refined over more than 100 years, not months.

You can't force medical procedures on people. This isn't a parallel... You'd save more lives banning tobacco products than forcing vaccines.

[deadbear]

https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1 ... 7742735367

From News Israel channel 13

"95% of the severe patients are vaccinated".
"85-90% of the hospitalizations are in Fully vaccinated people."
"We are opening more and more COVID wards."
"The effectiveness of the vaccine is waning/fading out"

Hypothetically if this happens here are you going to roll up your sleeve for the third shot? How about a forth and fifth shot? The data coming out of the rest of the world appears that the vaccine is only good for a few months.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-v ... lness.html

Pfizer and BioNTech’s Covid-19 vaccine is just 39% effective in Israel where the delta variant is the dominant strain, according to a new report from the country’s Health Ministry.

39% effective straight from the Israel Health Ministry.

Still, it said a third dose may be helpful after analysis from its phase three study showed a decline in efficacy against symptomatic infection after four to six months.

[montado]

https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1 ... 7742735367

From News Israel channel 13

"95% of the severe patients are vaccinated".
"85-90% of the hospitalizations are in Fully vaccinated people."
"We are opening more and more COVID wards."
"The effectiveness of the vaccine is waning/fading out"

Hypothetically if this happens here are you going to roll up your sleeve for the third shot? How about a forth and fifth shot? The data coming out of the rest of the world appears that the vaccine is only good for a few months.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-v ... lness.html

Pfizer and BioNTech’s Covid-19 vaccine is just 39% effective in Israel where the delta variant is the dominant strain, according to a new report from the country’s Health Ministry.

39% effective straight from the Israel Health Ministry.

Still, it said a third dose may be helpful after analysis from its phase three study showed a decline in efficacy against symptomatic infection after four to six months.

This is why the vaccine needs to be mandatory! If it was not for the unvaccinated we would not have these problems! Just kidding.

I sure am glad I accepted that the risk of covid is okay and the whole pandemic has been completely idiotic. For those of you who refuse to accept this and have the “covid zero” attitude their world is shrinking. Will two Pfizer doses be accepted as fully vaccinated after 6 months goes by after 2nd shot? 100 percent if I owned a restaurant, with this new information, I would post a sign “if your vaccine shot was more than 6 months ago you can only eat outside and you have to wear a mask” signed, the management. We need to start separating those who take 3rd shots from those idiots who will only take two! In fact anyone who refuses a third dose of vaccine is antivax… we should shame them…

Yeah baby bring on some passports! This shit will never end!

[Posthumane]

]

The act of crashing is what kills people, not wearing a seatbelt in and of itself.

Seatbelts have been developed and refined over more than 100 years, not months.

You can't force medical procedures on people. This isn't a parallel... You'd save more lives banning tobacco products than forcing vaccines.

And the vaccine is not what kills people, it's their adverse reaction to it. Both true but useless statements. In both cases you can't predict in advance who will have one and when, but you can make an educated guess as to who is more probable to have one.
Vaccines have been developed over 100 years as well. This particular iteration of vaccine tech is pretty new, but then again so are modern electric pre-crash systems in cars.
And yes you would save more lives by banning tobacco than by mandating either vaccines or seatbelts. The tobacco companies won't let it happen though, too much money at stake.
Anyway, I'm not a proponent of making vaccines mandatory. Nor seatbelts or helmets for that matter since I'm a fan of natural selection. I'm just pointing out that policies that only protect people from their own choices already exist in some forms, because in a country with pubic healthcare nobody's health decisions are in isolation.

[altiplano]

I disagree.

Puttimg a seatbelt over your shoulder as a precaution for an unlikely outcome does not in itself kill or hurt people.

Putting a vaccine in your arm as a precaution for an unlikely outcome does in itself kill and hurt people.

[CpnCrunch]

I disagree.

Puttimg a seatbelt over your shoulder as a precaution for an unlikely outcome does not in itself kill or hurt people.

Putting a vaccine in your arm as a precaution for an unlikely outcome does in itself kill and hurt people.

You need to weight the risk of getting vaccine vs not getting it. Right now there seems to be practically zero risk from the mRNA vaccines, and a significant risk of death or hospitalization, depending on age and health, with not taking the vaccine.

[montado]

I disagree.

Puttimg a seatbelt over your shoulder as a precaution for an unlikely outcome does not in itself kill or hurt people.

Putting a vaccine in your arm as a precaution for an unlikely outcome does in itself kill and hurt people.

You need to weight the risk of getting vaccine vs not getting it. Right now there seems to be practically zero risk from the mRNA vaccines, and a significant risk of death or hospitalization, depending on age and health, with not taking the vaccine.

Define significant risk of death or hospitalization. This is a pretty wild way to describe covid to the average person.

I would say are you over 60, obese and smoke or have and pre existing conditions? If yes, I would say you are at high risk of hospitalization.

If your answer is no, you are low risk for hospitalization. Covid is low risk for the vast majority of people. And the very people who get vaccinated but also hit the high risk points, Guess what! Those same people are ending up in hospitals, because a vaccine won’t save all the high risk people.

[altiplano]

I disagree.

Puttimg a seatbelt over your shoulder as a precaution for an unlikely outcome does not in itself kill or hurt people.

Putting a vaccine in your arm as a precaution for an unlikely outcome does in itself kill and hurt people.

You need to weight the risk of getting vaccine vs not getting it. Right now there seems to be practically zero risk from the mRNA vaccines, and a significant risk of death or hospitalization, depending on age and health, with not taking the vaccine.

Weigh the risks. Bingo.

Significant risk from the virus?

No... there is neither a significant risk of getting the virus nor a significant risk if one were to get the virus unless aged/unhealthy/immunocompromised.

Yet the risk associated with the vaccine is 100% accepted and unknown if you get it. And we don't even know the long term risks/affects yet. And now you need even more vaccine as the effects are shown to fade after only a short time...

I'm glad you're happy with your choices. I'm happy with nine too.

[montado]

Let’s compare the symptoms of long covid, to the symptoms of stress. I would think if we are telling kids if they don’t wear a mask they could kill grandma, would most definitely cause stress. The message kids are getting from parents, teachers, coaches, friends etc will most definitely cause some stress. Is long covid really a thing? Or are we just mentally destroying this generation

Covid long haul

CA3E45CD-545D-4D8C-9F91-60E08A475E25.jpeg (378.85 KiB) Viewed 873 times

Stress

179DCA32-A262-4017-8329-FA104FF4D46D.jpeg (357.32 KiB) Viewed 873 times

[Inverted2]

I think a lot of people are mentally destroyed from 18 months of 24/7 fear indoctrination.

Trudope paying people CERB to stay home isn’t helping people’s work ethic either. A lot of businesses I notice are on reduced hours because of staffing shortages.

Throw in some inflation and tax increases as well. The future looks bright indeed.