care to explain??

scubasteve · Post by **scubasteve** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:57 pm

Hello...I have been thinking for some time now of getting my float rating done and was looking again at Parallel's courses. For the basic 7 hour course they mention 5 hours dual and 2 solo but then it says this:

5 takeoffs and landings as sole occupant of the aeroplane except for two crew aircraft, in which case the takeoffs and landings shall be done as pilot-in- command.

Now since they do they're training on C172 and 180...do they mean two crew and PIC as the instructor sitting beside you for your "solo" since i cant see a 172 or 180 being operated as a 2 crew plane. If anyone has any insight or is familiar with Parallel or any other float programs in BC I'd love to hear about it.

shimmydampner · Post by **shimmydampner** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:32 pm

No they aren't 2-crew so you'll be by yourself.

I had a buddy who already had 25 hours on floats but did 25 hours at Air-Hart in Kelowna and loved it.

Good luck, floats is the most fun you'll have in an airplane in my opinion.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:56 am

Hey, Scuba.

You should look at the way they ( Prallel ) advertise their "Extreem Bush Flying Course"

Makes my heart race just reading it.

Cat

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:00 am

Well, I guess you could get your initial float rating in a PBY, or some other large, ugly(Just kidding there, Cat)flying boat..or a CL415. It would never happen...but ya COULD. Then it'd be two crew.

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:35 am

Well Doc the first seaplane I ever flew was a PBY, back in my Austin days, so yes it can happen.
Transport Canada gave me a Canso endorsement not a seaplane rating. That's just one of little loop holes in the rules. When I left Austins my next employer gave me the rating.
I have done prof rides on 215's with TC inspectors and never once was I asked to demonstrate my airmanship in water ops. It don't make sence I know but that's the way they do things.
In my mind the water handling of a PBY is not anything like any float plane I've ever flown by a long shot. The only thing a PBY has in common with float planes is it floats on water.
I know of a couple of other guys that this has happened to also so it's not that rare. I'll bet you Cat driver teaches pilots all over the world who have little to no seaplane time until the strap on a PBY.
Cheers

Murph · Post by **Murph** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:26 pm

I did my PPL at Parallel, they're pretty good but sometimes they don't make sence(the adds that is). I remember hearing something awhile ago about some companies Insurance not letting them send their floatplane out with out an instructor so they were just carrying the instructor as a passenger and you are PIC, maybe thats what they're doing? I think i heard it called a shotgun flight?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:48 pm

Driving Rain:

Give me a pilot with zero float plane time any day as far as teaching them goes.

Then I don't have to unteach.

By the way, I will be leaving Holland in a few more days and we will be finished for the season.

We did 111 water landings this past two weeks during training.

Cat

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:12 pm

I was doing some waterbombing in Portugal back in the late 90s, my Portugese co-pilot had never flown a float plane. The first seaplane he'd ever strapped on was 215. Today he's a 215 Captain , plus he flys a Fireboss on Whip amphibs.

I don't understand why insurance companies require so much float time. If you examine most of the accidents seaplanes have the fact that they were on floats/boats had very little to do with causing an accident.
Overloading and trying to get into or out of too small a lake (poor judgement) and weather related are the biggest reasons seaplanes crash.
I know the water is a very unforgiving environment and drowning is a major cause of fatalities but no ones dieing in a post crash fire either.

In Alaska believe it or not, most of the bush pilots and operators are on wheels not floats, they crash lots for the same reasons. Asking a young pilot to get 50 or 100 hours on floats prior to employment is just stupid and wastefull. Get young pilots and operators to exercise good judgement and reward those that do with lower premiums and a bonus makes more sence.

Cat are you coming east and will I see you sometime this fall?
Blue sky and calm waters

c_172pilot · Post by **c_172pilot** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:22 pm

I did my 50 hour course with Tom a few years ago. They only had the C-172 on floats then. I did go solo (with no one in the airplane but me) I did have Steve come with me on a few of my solo outings to new places and it was nice to have someone with experance to guide me and assist when needed. I did most of my 25 hours solo (by myself in the airplane) I think on the website they are just quoteing the CARS as far as the PIC. I do know one guy who got his float endorsement on a Twin otter. He acted as PIC and that was good enough for TC. Steve I would e-mail around and see what the programs are like. I would go back to Parallel again. I am sure there are a few more like me around. I also did there "extreme" bush flying course and it did get my heart racing coming into a grass field next to a logging camp with no go round option. But that is just my 2 cents.

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:01 pm

Cat Driver

The Parallel add said your heart would POUND and you would feel what it's like to be a"real bush pilot." It didn't say your heart would RACE.

If the waiting list isn't too long when you getback to Canada better see your Dr. and get that checked out.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:34 pm

Sign me up

Just wondering who teaches it, Does the instructor actually have any "bush time" or is he/she some Career CFI or some Noob Instructor. Teaching "Bush" from a textbook.

The reason I ask is awhile back when I was a noob the school had a Bush Flying ground school session. I assumed they would pull some grizzled old bush pilot out of the basement dust him off and let him rant about back in his day or at least someone who had worked in that side of the industry. Anyway long story short some geek wearing a shirt and tie with about 600 hours intructing time under his belt just went over the leason plan. I learned more sitting in the coffee shop listening to the old guys BS about being 5000 pounds over gross with 2 engines failed on a beaver "and then the moose woke up kind of story"

Murph · Post by **Murph** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:21 pm

I think their CFI teaches the flying part, and i don't think he has bush experiance, not sure. We had an instructor who told us his "Bush stories" which consisted of him working a dock, and then flying a cessna into an unimproved and then having to shoot a bear becuase it tried to attack the japanese girls he took in to look at bears, and then he worked the dock some more and made some claimes of a king air almost landing on him in CZBB when he was back in his cessna...and i think hes on a dock in duncan now or somewhere in the area...

bb lint · Post by **bb lint** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:26 pm

Murph' wrote:...and i think hes on a dock in duncan now or somewhere in the area...

Good place for him, hey....wait a minute...he's getting better weed than us and all those hippie chicks..,,,what gives?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:12 am

Driving Rain:

Yeh I guess I did missquote the add. Maybe I should go to a Dr. but what if he starts to examine my mental state?

As to the " Extreem " part of their add, I personally find that approach to trying to fish for students to be an insult to every professional pilot in our industry........... That kind of crap belongs in a circus add not in a flying training add, in my opinion of course.

Cat

c_172pilot · Post by **c_172pilot** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:08 am

I don’t know Kevin's exact experience but I do know that he flew out in the Alberta oil fields for a few years. He also did some neat stuff like power line patrol and others. The instruction on my course was very professional and made me feel confidant going in to places that I thought I would never be able to take an airplane into. If you have any questions about the course the best place to get the info would be right from School themselves. As far as it being "extreme" how would you make it stand out from all the rest of the Bush and Mountain where all you do is land on a gravel strip or toy around near some rocks? Murph what courses did you do at Parallel?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:54 pm

I think it is good that they are trying to given some students a little great amount of experience, but they are also trying to make money.

As for extreme bush flying..... All the pics on the are in beautiful weather.... the beach and gravel runway are nice and long and wide... the plane is probably half full of fuel and only has the student and instructor for wieght.

Wait until you have a real bush job flying something like a 206 fully loaded in less than perfect weather and have to land on a gravel bar in the river that is 800 ft long on a good day.

Murph · Post by **Murph** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:07 pm

I did my PPL there, was there when you did your course, he was the ground school instructor for us and told us his stories...most of which where pretty unbelievable as i said i wasn't sure on Varies experiance. We had a couple of people around doing the mountain course. They tried to sell their mountain course to us, and it did sound kinda ridiculus the way the use the words extreme and such. They seemed to teach good things in it, but the advertising seemed to be aimed at city people that want to say they have "Bush Experiance". Just my two cents though

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:50 pm

hmmm no wonder I get resumes with stuff like Mountain endorsment on it.

Its good that they are offering some sort of training outside the traditional sense but cmon to be safe aviator their shouldnt be anything EXTREME about it, what a crock of shit. Gee that Runway looks pretty extreme to me

its like 2000 ft long looks like good gravel.
http://www.parallelaviation.com/mountain.html

Murph · Post by **Murph** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:05 pm

ya, my instructor did some of the instructing for the "extreme mountain course" this last summer, he also turned 20, and had just graduated from the flying program at some college in calgary

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:02 pm

Its 03:30 and I can't sleep, about a week of bad weather here in Holland has ruined my sleep pattern and I find myself back at the computer rather than lying in bed unable to sleep.

So lets have a closer look at this method of attracting new students.

The industry under the guidance of TC is structured around the buzz word "Safety" and it is noteworthy in this new age of aviation that all the regulation bodies around the world have embraced that mantra "safety" with just reason, safety after all is our primary objective when operating any machinery that can injure or kill you.

There is also another factor at work here in the constant use of the mantra "safety" and that is the preceived innoculation of yourself and your department, company from lawsuits in the event that there is an accident.

Now lets imagine that little Johnny your son or little Jane your daughter takes one of these "extreem" training courses and then goes out to play with their newfound skills and splats into the side of a rock cliff pretending to be Top Gun of the bush pilot fraternity, sooner or later some greiving family is going to hire a lawyer and go after the people who taught their son, daughter to fly in and "extreem" manner.

It would be very interesting observing a good lawyer prying into the background and qualifications of the instructor and the owner, owner's of the school that came up with this unorthodox program.

If I were said lawyer I would of course examine TC flight training staff for their thoughts on how such a training program became part of an FTU.

The foregoing are only my thoughts on this, posted because as a professional pilot and advanced flight instructor this flamboyant and in my opinion very risky kind of advertising has no place in our industry, and makes us look like the aviation version of "Quacks" in the medical profession.

Cat