Beaver Tips

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cdnpilot77
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by cdnpilot77 »

There is a "Baron" flap setting on the indicator which is a little less than 20degrees. Also, with ours (Mk2000 Baron STOL kit) the flap setting is limited to "Landing" at the most. It is blocked off from going to "Full Flap".

No need for any flap in cruise and get 125mph cruise with the Wip6000 Amphibs
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DHCdriver
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by DHCdriver »

The MK 2000 that I flew had a setting of "Baron" that we used instead of Take Off. We never had a restriction for full flap.
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ozone
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by ozone »

Just thought I would resurrect this thread for other guys besides myself starting out on the beaver this upcoming float season. You have to take some of the comments with a grain of salt but all and all it seems there is a wealth of experience here.
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Rowdy
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by Rowdy »

Truly a wealth of information here! The ol' girl is well supported with many fans and pilots who have flown her!

Take good care of that 985 and it'll do the same for you.
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Starboardwing
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by Starboardwing »

So how do you guys lean the beaver? I dont like the idea of just bringing the mixture back half way like i've been told.
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bronson
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by bronson »

You lean it like any other engine, just a bit rich of peak.
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Castorero
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by Castorero »

My, how time flies...

A venerable thread, to be sure.

Beaverbob, xsbank, Rowdy, HS-748 2A, Cat, and all the OldFarts that have contributed to this thread in the spirit of mentorship, a sincere thank you.

The sharing of your knowledge, tempered by experience and good judgement, is an example for generations of pilots to follow.

I dont feel qualified, in this illustrious company, to offer any useful tips in the Shepherding of the Beaver.


Castorero
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Last edited by Castorero on Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bronson
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by bronson »

polar one wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:12 am I had the same thought. On wheels we routinely used 30 inches on take off. Sea level in the arctic and light loads. You simply dont have to run the old engine to red line to perform well. On floats, hot day, full load. You have to think differently.

I suspect that the poster is referring to float flying without thinking through the absoluteness of the statement as it applies to all Beaver flying. It is one of the dangers of giving tips. Get into the habit of only using full power for takeoff and it is easy to forget that if you transition or there are different circumsatances things might be a bit different.

Generally, I kind of liked the tips given
If you look through the Service Bulletins you should find the reasoning behind NOT using reduced power T/Os. It is actually harder on the engine. Also if you use the power settings in the manual you will find a considerable drop in in oil consumption.
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by beaverbob »

Castorero wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:47 pm My, how time flies...

A venerable thread, to be sure.

Beaverbob, xsbank, Rowdy, HS-748 2A, Cat, and all the OldFarts that have contributed to this thread in the spirit of mentorship, a sincere thank you.

The sharing of your knowledge, tempered by experience and good judgement, is an example for generations of pilots to follow.

I dont feel qualified, in this illustrious company, to offer any useful tips in the Shepherding of the Beaver.

I will add one reason for the use of full take off power in the Beaver or any other aircraft, beyond what has already been said in this thread, is to quickly (Vy or Vx) get to a safe altitude, from where you are better able to decide what to do in the event that the engine craps out unexpectedly after take off.

Castorero
I felt it an honor to, hopefully, pass some good information along to others on here. I have not been on Avcanada for awhile and when I come back I see my name mentioned along with a few other of us OldFarts. Thank you.

I would like to add that Last September, with 51 years as a commercial pilot and 34,000 hours of VFR flying in all of BC, I retired from full time flying. I am proud to say that I flew the piston Beaver for 34 years and 20,000 hours on the BC Coast.
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by beaverbob »

mr.jinks wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:09 pm do people actually set the throttle linkage up to stop at 36.5 on a standard day? ... every one i have seen will go way past if firewalled.
Will probably go to about 40 inches at full throttle. But pay attention and never exceed 36.5" red line. it is there for a reason. The answer to the above is no and will become obvious when you climb to altitude.
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by beaverbob »

tzu wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:33 pm Crosswind tips?

Climb flap... no flap... extra power..
Any other techniques by the seasoned drivers?
Take off flap, maximum power red line, Ailerons full into the wind until effective and opposite rudder. If a yaw starts into the wind with that configuration pull the nose up to set the stern of the floats back into the water. Will straighten the plane out. Then slowly lower the nose again onto the step.
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Heliian
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by Heliian »

beaverbob wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:36 pm
Castorero wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:47 pm My, how time flies...

A venerable thread, to be sure.

Beaverbob, xsbank, Rowdy, HS-748 2A, Cat, and all the OldFarts that have contributed to this thread in the spirit of mentorship, a sincere thank you.

The sharing of your knowledge, tempered by experience and good judgement, is an example for generations of pilots to follow.

I dont feel qualified, in this illustrious company, to offer any useful tips in the Shepherding of the Beaver.

I will add one reason for the use of full take off power in the Beaver or any other aircraft, beyond what has already been said in this thread, is to quickly (Vy or Vx) get to a safe altitude, from where you are better able to decide what to do in the event that the engine craps out unexpectedly after take off.

Castorero
I felt it an honor to, hopefully, pass some good information along to others on here. I have not been on Avcanada for awhile and when I come back I see my name mentioned along with a few other of us OldFarts. Thank you.

I would like to add that Last September, with 51 years as a commercial pilot and 34,000 hours of VFR flying in all of BC, I retired from full time flying. I am proud to say that I flew the piston Beaver for 34 years and 20,000 hours on the BC Coast.
Congratulations Bob! Hope you can enjoy your retirement.

Cheers!
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by Rowdy »

Congrats Bob! All the best out there my friend!
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by TurbineBeaver »

Back in 1979 when I first got checked out in the Beaver, at Kenmore Air Harbor, they made a BIG deal about Full power departure stalls, turning left and right. They wanted you to realize how fast the airplane will get you into big trouble when at full power and us stalled in a climbing turn. Not sure if that is emphasized in today's training or not, but sure as heck should be!
Fly safe
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by bronson »

Here is a really good read found on FB. Might save your life. https://www.facebook.com/vintagebarnsto ... 833318120/
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by oldncold »

not as experienced on the ole beav as the illustrious vets here but , with 600 hours on type. here a few things i ve been taught and learned
1) after take off dont make any turns beyond 10 'bank until 80mph in fact dont do anything other than reduce from t/o power until 80.

2)if wave height is larger than the top of the floats from the waterline when loaded at the dock you have 3) options a/seek a quiter area for takeoff -not always possible, /get the otter/ wait for better conditions. if your beav has the small norseman floats be careful in rough water they are excellent for dealing with some of that but on take off you could find that you get thrown airborne buy a gust at critical speed n then the ole beav wing stalls this applies to the reg beav floats too

my observation big picture this season: with money extremely tight for some struggling tourist operators( more so than before pre covid) the pressure will be on to maximize every flight. the pressure will be subtle but intense on you young people . things like wx obviously at or varying below vfr. , pushing daylight , the "extra 20-50 lbs of gear last. min etc . say no. say it as many times as you need to and live to fly another day.
there are alot of good 703 float operators out there .. but the lodge owners they fly for will be ruthless in pressuring young pilots to do more than they should.

note* you should know the compary needs an special authorization (formerly ops spec) on their a.o.c. to do low level 300ft agl n 1 stat mile vfr in uncontrolled airspace and the pilots have to be trained and have to meet time and time on type to conduct that. alot of ole school operators dont know or choose to ignore that because they been doing that for 50 yrs. .

so congrats on flyn the beav this summer fly safe / 8)
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LapseRate
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by LapseRate »

I just got started on the Beaver this spring and this thread has been very insightful.
My biggest question: which is the fastest way to get it on the step ? I have been experimenting with pushing hard, rocking back and forth, trimming it all the way forward. I always managed to get it on the step eventually, which is fine with infinite lakes, not so much with short ones. I feel like I'm wasting time plowing through water either waiting too long for a rise that is already there, or trying to push it forward too soon. I've asked around and received different answers. Just curious what you guys can recommend. Thanks !
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by Meatservo »

LapseRate wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:46 pm I just got started on the Beaver this spring and this thread has been very insightful.
My biggest question: which is the fastest way to get it on the step ? I have been experimenting with pushing hard, rocking back and forth, trimming it all the way forward. I always managed to get it on the step eventually, which is fine with infinite lakes, not so much with short ones. I feel like I'm wasting time plowing through water either waiting too long for a rise that is already there, or trying to push it forward too soon. I've asked around and received different answers. Just curious what you guys can recommend. Thanks !
You're going to get a gazillion different opinions on this subject. Here's mine: I don't think any of that shit works. I don't think the floats really care what the aircraft is doing below planing speed. Any hull has a theoretical maximum speed it will travel through the water efficiently- dictated by how fast a wave equal in amplitude to the object's waterline length will propagate through water. At that point, it takes a lot more power to get it to go any faster. If enough power is available, a properly designed hull will rise up over its own bow wave, and leave its stern wave behind. Then it is "planing", and I figure it's only at this point that what you're doing with the elevator will have some effect on what's going on. Boats do this perfectly well, and the don't HAVE elevators. Before it's on the step, though? In effect anything you do with the elevator is going to have the same effect on the hull as changing its centre of gravity would, and the hulls, like the plane itself, are designed to function best with the centre of gravity in a certain range. Which hopefully it is, because you've balanced the plane properly.

On single-engined planes, we start the take-off run with the stick held all the way back simply to try and hold the nose up a bit to reduce the amount of spray that goes through the prop. Other than that, it's my opinion that anything you do with the elevator can only serve to lengthen the amount of time and distance it takes to get "on step".

One thing I can guarantee, though, is that there will be plenty of people whose experience is at least as much as mine who will disagree with my opinion. The vast majority of my float time is on Twin Otters, where there is no propeller on the nose to worry about, and I'm quite confident that it doesn't make one bit of difference what you do with the elevator until the plane has already started to climb onto the step. When I flew smaller floatplanes, including the Beaver, I tried all that stuff, like rocking back and forth, playing with the stabilizer trim (Cessnas and Otters) or the elevator trim (Beavers and Caravans), and my results, like yours, were inconclusive. I'm convinced none of that stuff actually does anything.
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by C-FDPB »

LapseRate wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:46 pm I just got started on the Beaver this spring and this thread has been very insightful.
My biggest question: which is the fastest way to get it on the step ? I have been experimenting with pushing hard, rocking back and forth, trimming it all the way forward. I always managed to get it on the step eventually, which is fine with infinite lakes, not so much with short ones. I feel like I'm wasting time plowing through water either waiting too long for a rise that is already there, or trying to push it forward too soon. I've asked around and received different answers. Just curious what you guys can recommend. Thanks !
What I found really worked for me was if the beaver is at full gross. ..cough..cough..Be it 5090, 5370 etc. Not to pull all the way back on the yoke on takeoff. The tail is already sitting low due to the weight in the back so I would hold it at about neutral or a hair aft of neutral until the rising stopped then once you could feel the motion of rising coming to an end push the yoke forward and it would get on the step with ease pretty much every time. This was on a standard wing, no nose extension and edo 4930's with a -18 2 blade prop and OAT below (+20 degrees C). Now factor in a fully loaded beaver with a 5600lb up gross on whips and you could be pushing water all day.

cheers
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Re: Beaver Tips

Post by Maynard »

Meatservo wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:55 pm
LapseRate wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:46 pm I just got started on the Beaver this spring and this thread has been very insightful.
My biggest question: which is the fastest way to get it on the step ? I have been experimenting with pushing hard, rocking back and forth, trimming it all the way forward. I always managed to get it on the step eventually, which is fine with infinite lakes, not so much with short ones. I feel like I'm wasting time plowing through water either waiting too long for a rise that is already there, or trying to push it forward too soon. I've asked around and received different answers. Just curious what you guys can recommend. Thanks !
You're going to get a gazillion different opinions on this subject. Here's mine: I don't think any of that shit works. I don't think the floats really care what the aircraft is doing below planing speed. Any hull has a theoretical maximum speed it will travel through the water efficiently- dictated by how fast a wave equal in amplitude to the object's waterline length will propagate through water. At that point, it takes a lot more power to get it to go any faster. If enough power is available, a properly designed hull will rise up over its own bow wave, and leave its stern wave behind. Then it is "planing", and I figure it's only at this point that what you're doing with the elevator will have some effect on what's going on. Boats do this perfectly well, and the don't HAVE elevators. Before it's on the step, though? In effect anything you do with the elevator is going to have the same effect on the hull as changing its centre of gravity would, and the hulls, like the plane itself, are designed to function best with the centre of gravity in a certain range. Which hopefully it is, because you've balanced the plane properly.

On single-engined planes, we start the take-off run with the stick held all the way back simply to try and hold the nose up a bit to reduce the amount of spray that goes through the prop. Other than that, it's my opinion that anything you do with the elevator can only serve to lengthen the amount of time and distance it takes to get "on step".

One thing I can guarantee, though, is that there will be plenty of people whose experience is at least as much as mine who will disagree with my opinion. The vast majority of my float time is on Twin Otters, where there is no propeller on the nose to worry about, and I'm quite confident that it doesn't make one bit of difference what you do with the elevator until the plane has already started to climb onto the step. When I flew smaller floatplanes, including the Beaver, I tried all that stuff, like rocking back and forth, playing with the stabilizer trim (Cessnas and Otters) or the elevator trim (Beavers and Caravans), and my results, like yours, were inconclusive. I'm convinced none of that stuff actually does anything.
I'll be one of those who disagree but also agree on a few things. I agree that running the trim back and then forward doesn't do shit. Just use your elevator and once on step fine tune it with the trim if you want, but it's got nothing going for it to help it getting on step.

Your planing theory about the hull is correct, but the elevator absolutely has a say in when it "properly" planes. If you trim a boat motor up, it will never plane, it will flop up and down since its going too slow and the hull is rising out of the water too soon. How to overcome this? Trim down, or move all your people into the bow. The way I've always looked at a floatplane, is to treat the plane like a boat when its on the water. You wouldn't trim your motor all the way up, its always all the way down to plane the fastest. Floats act the same way. Forget about the wings, if you hold the elevator back the nose is going to come way up and then fall back down as the speed is too slow to get on step as there's not enough wing lift yet. What makes it worse is when the wing does start to help out, but not enough. Now it is close to planing but the wing lift isn't enough and can't sustain, so it drops hard again. It will porpoise and probably eventually get where you want it to but your pax will never want to fly with you again. I can only speak to the otter and 185, but gross weight takeoffs (for me) are always fast on step doing:

-Trim set for takeoff. Controls neutral, add takeoff power. As soon as the nose begins to rise, start inputting nose forward pressure until its fully forward and nose rise stops. Once nose starts to come back down, start to neutralize the elevator pressure until you get the sweet spot on step.
I've had shorter takeoff runs with a tailwind than I've seen some do with a headwind or no wind pulling way back on the elevator to get the nose up. It's just added drag by the heels of the floats, flaps, elevator on and on.....
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