CAP 3000 Installation Eligibility

[CamAero]

Trying to determine if CAP 3000 floats can be installed on a 1953 Cessna 180.

CAP's Type Cert on the NICO has no info.

Anybody know the answer?

CA

[iflyforpie]

The TC Holder is Kenn Borek, why not give them a call? You'll need an STC or LSTC to install them

[CamAero]

I'm on it.

We'll see.

[PilotDAR]

Does the 180 still have the original 225HP 470 ("J", if I recall)? That could be a very minor stumbling block. But, this should be easily approvable, if it not approved already.

[groncher]

Check out the following link, may or may not help...

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/n ... d_num=3889

If the link does not work try searching the following STC on NICO- SA66-13. It applies to installation of CAP 3000 floats on C180.

[CamAero]

Damn ~

That was a great find groncher.

I have had so many dead ends..

Unfortunately; it looks like my serial number is ineligible.

PilotDAR, This airplane originally had an O-470A. It was converted to a K model in 1990.

Thanks guys,

CA.

[PilotDAR]

Cam,

If you're completely at a dead end, I can help you. An STC you can get is usually cheaper than doing a serialized STC (TC don't call them LSTC's anymore). But a sSTC is more versatile when there is no other approval available. Problems do creep in which you start mixing floats, engine changes and other mods like STOL kits.

If you're stuck, PM me...

[CamAero]

Thanks Pilot DAR. I just cannot understand why they cut the serial numbers off where they do.

I may well follow up with you and I appreciate your input very much. The customer is away right now but I will probably get ahold of you after I confer with him.

Cheers,

CA.

[Twindriver007]

New to the forum but have a friend with a 1954 C180 going on caps and he probably is in same boat.
I do remember though being told there is an American STC as well as a canadian stc and you can reference which one you will use.

Can anybody brighter, she'd light on that?

Alternately the 1953 and 1954 guys should get together on it ASAP.

Is there likely an old LSTC out there for this already, that these guys can access?

I can accept PM on it and forward to the 1954 Cessna guy.

Keep up the good sleuthing....

[PilotDAR]

Just to lend a little clarity about modification approvals in Canada:

FAA STC's on US designed aircraft (Cessna) are nearly always accepted as approved data for Canadian registered aircraft of that model. Typically, the FAA STC holder issues a copy to the subject aircraft by serial number.

FAA serialized STC's (like LSTC's) are less common, but are of no use to a Canadian registered aircraft.

TC STC's are obviously applicable to Canadian registered aircraft of the type. TC charges $1900 for the application for an STC.

TC LSTA's were replaced by LSTC's, which were replaced with Serialized STC's, apparently to appease the FAA. who could not figure out what "limited" meant in terms of an STC. You can find LSTC's and sSTC's on TC NICO, but they are of no use to another aircraft, other that you know someone has done that mod before, so it probably works. TC will allow the issuance of a sSTC to all of the same model of an aircraft owner by the same owner/fleet. TC charges $470 for the application for an sSTC.

Just to fill in around the edges, there are also "RDA's" which are Repair Design Approvals, which replace RDC's "RDCertificates". Go figure. Not applicable for mods.

Other than those, there is the "minor mod", which must be done in accordance with specified data (AC43.13, being the most common). To determine if the mod truly is minor, review the "test" in Appendix A, of Standard 571.

The entry point to an approval project, following the application to TC, and paying the fee, is the preparation and submission of a "Certification Plan". This would be a 6+ page document, describing the project, and associated factors. TC will consider the project, based upon this document, and proceed accordingly. (Better cert plan = better project).

When an aircraft owner searches, and finds that there is no approval for something which sounds like a great mod, they may tear their hair out, and ask why?!? Simple answer is nearly always that no one ever applied for the approval. TC and the FAA do not issue approves for mods for which application is not made!

Some owners, when considering seeking an approval for their mod, on their aircraft knowing that they'll need an sSTC, think to themselves, "well then I'll get an STC, and sell them ". Maybe, but $ difference, and other factors might make it a not so good idea. Just get the approval that you need.

The other thing to consider is that TC will require a prospective holder to "qualify" to hold the approval, and manage any issues which could come up in the future. (Think service difficulty reporting). And, there penalties for not taking that responsibility.

I hope that helps for those wondering how to get a mod done....

[iflyforpie]

Makes me really glad I have an Amateur Built aircraft.....

[CamAero]

Pie; yes, indeed. Not the way this cookie crumbles though..

PilotDAR, appreciate very much your input there. That's great info. Got a good notion to put it in a file somewhere so I can dig it out when these discussions come up.

Another factor you did not mention, when one is thinking on becoming the 'holder' of an STC is the liability. It goes on forever, long after you're not making any money on the few that you hopefully sold; the airplanes are still out there and you, or even your estate, may well be carrying the risk.

CA

[twotter]

PilotDAR, very good advice and some great points for moving forward. What part of the country are you in? PM me if you don't want it advertised. I'd like to have a chat with you about a bunch of things...

Cheers
Dale

[PilotDAR]

Makes me really glad I have an Amateur Built aircraft.....

Indeed! One of my planes is O-M, so relieved of this same burden, but it is not welcomed across the border. I have no eagerness for GA airplanes to be certified and so regulated, and have make many proposals to TC to ease the burden on this class of aircraft. O-M was a great advancement, but with several glaring flaws. Best would be if the FAA, TC and EASA would harmonize down the burden of certification on GA aircraft - but then why would they do that?

The other element I should have included in my "list" is the FAA "337". It is a sidestep of the system on the whole, and although it is used as a method of approval in the US, it has no parallel in Canada. This is because the "337" is not issued from an aircraft certification discipline, but rather from the maintenance side. So it's like your TC M&M inspector signing a form saying that you're good to go without an STC. The problem is that there is poor assurance that the evaluation was comprehensive, things can and have been missed, and the aircraft certification people, particularly in Canada, know this. So 337 "approvals" are not accepted on Canadian registered aircraft, and viewed with caution on imports. It could be that a 337 mod on an aircraft being imported could be required to have an sSTC issued to approve it.

I work from my office in central Ontario, though am known to be in other locations from time to time. PM's are welcomed, and phone chats easily arranged. I'm out of Canada this week.