Possible error in W+B amendment?

[CpnCrunch]

I'm a little confused about this w+b amendment:



An Ameriking AK-451 ELT was replaced with an ACK E-04. Here are the oddities:

- The amendment had both of them listed as "equipment removed", even though the ACK was added
- Weight of the Ameriking is listed as 11lb, even though it is apparently 2.1lb including tray
- Arm of the new ACK is listed as 64in, which is where the back seats are (and it definitely isn't there...it's in the rear avoinics bay)
- Arm of the old ELT is listed as 164in, which seems to far back, but may be possible. The original ELT was at 116in.

So, unless I'm missing something, the only correct bit about this w+b is the 1.9lb weight of the new ELT (although it shouldn't be negative!)

There aren't any previous amendments related to this one (the previous one was a few years earlier for some other equipment added).

I contacted the AME who did this w+b and he says it looks like an error, but he hasn't been any more forthcoming. My AME is going to be drawing up a new amendment for some new equipment, so I need to figure out what to do about this. I'm thinking the best option might be to either completely disgregard the previous amendment, or fix it with the correct weights and arms. The problem with fixing it that I would have to guess that both ELTs were at 116in, which may or may not be correct.

Leaving it as is isn't really a good option, as it's basically 11lbs of removed from the back of the plane which wasn't actually removed. The difference in weight of the two ELTs is 0.3lb, so fairly negligible. Yes, it should be fixed, but if it comes to either guessing the correct arms or just leaving as-is, perhaps leaving as is is the best option.

Anyway, I'm struggling to believe that an experienced AME who has installed avionics for decades could make so many mistakes in the w+b, so I'm wondering if I've missed something. Is there any possible reason for the apparently strange values?

[photofly]

Don’t believe in the infallibility of AMEs. What’s the problem with measuring the arm and doing a new W&B?

[CpnCrunch]

Don’t believe in the infallibility of AMEs. What’s the problem with measuring the arm and doing a new W&B?

There is no problem with that. Just wondering why there were so many errors and if I've missed something.

[photofly]

Seeing as you need an AME to sign off a new W&B, it wouldn’t be you that had missed something, it would be them, so you’re golden either way

[CpnCrunch]

Seeing as you need an AME to sign off a new W&B, it wouldn’t be you that had missed something, it would be them, so you’re golden either way

Just trying to figure this mess out myself so I don't need to pay my AME to do it, and I can just give him the details.

[digits_]

Take a look at the previous weight and balance change. If it was done by the same AME, they might have copy pasted something over an old file, giving you weird numbers.

[photofly]

Seeing as you need an AME to sign off a new W&B, it wouldn’t be you that had missed something, it would be them, so you’re golden either way

Just trying to figure this mess out myself so I don't need to pay my AME to do it, and I can just give him the details.

I know! But once they sign it, they’re on the hook

[ahramin]

Ask the AME to fix their error. That should do it.

[PilotDAR]

You, as the pilot are capable of doing all of the math on this, you're just not entitled to sign for the maintenance aspect of it. So, you can do the W&B amendment as you think it should be, so you can discuss with your AME when the time comes.

My other observation is that for whatever reason, W&B in general is the most regularly screwed up thing in airplane maintenance. Always double check them and question anything which does not seem right. Sometimes, it's a big deal!

[ahramin]

Also weight and balance amendments must be entered in the journey log. Check those entries.

[photofly]

Also weight and balance amendments must be entered in the journey log. Check those entries.

Just the current data, not the details of each amendment.

[CpnCrunch]

Ask the AME to fix their error. That should do it.

Well, it was 3 years ago with a previous owner, they're 3 provinces away, and they've likely forgotten all about it. They certainly aren't giving me any further help, and it's easy enough for me to fix.

Also weight and balance amendments must be entered in the journey log. Check those entries.

I don't see any info there for the actual amendments, only a note saying that the w+b was changed.

Take a look at the previous weight and balance change. If it was done by the same AME, they might have copy pasted something over an old file, giving you weird numbers.

Nope, just checked them all, and nothing resembling any of the figures.

Anyway, I just had a look at it and measured it as 116in, which is what I thought, so I'll just draw up an amendment for my AME to sign off, along with the changes for the fire extinguisher I asked him to replace.

I'm glad I had a look at it, as the fricken thing wasn't even strapped down. The straps were just hanging over it, and it was free to move about! (This was the fault of a different AME who did the last ELT check).

[ahramin]

SCHEDULE I(Paragraph 604.127(i), subsection 605.94(1) and Item 3 of Schedule II)

Journey Log

Item

2

Particulars to be entered

aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity and any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity

Time of entry

when a change is made, as soon as practicable after the change but, at the latest, before the next flight

Person responsible for entry

The owner of the aircraft and, for any change, the person who made the change

Not just the current data, but the changes to the weight and balance. In other words how much weight was added or subtracted and where it was added or subtracted from as well as the current empty weight and balance.

[Big Pistons Forever]

SCHEDULE I(Paragraph 604.127(i), subsection 605.94(1) and Item 3 of Schedule II)

Journey Log

Item

2

Particulars to be entered

aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity and any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity

Time of entry

when a change is made, as soon as practicable after the change but, at the latest, before the next flight

Person responsible for entry

The owner of the aircraft and, for any change, the person who made the change

Not just the current data, but the changes to the weight and balance. In other words how much weight was added or subtracted and where it was added or subtracted from as well as the current empty weight and balance.

No

If there is a change the owner is responsible for entering or ensuring that there is an entry ( if the AME did it) for the new empty weight and empty C of G in the JL. You don't have to enter the reason why or what got added or subtracted in the JL, that information is in the actual W & B sheet and in the JL maintenance release signed by the AME when the work was done, if the amendment was to add or remove equipment.

BTW Kudo's to Cap Crunch. My experience is that most private owners don't pay any attention to the aircraft documents even though they are ultimately the ones responsible.

Instructors: I find knowledge of the documentation that pilot must examine to ensure the aircraft is airworthy is a consistent weak area in instructors which means their students are not going to know either.

[CpnCrunch]

SCHEDULE I(Paragraph 604.127(i), subsection 605.94(1) and Item 3 of Schedule II)

Journey Log

Item

2

Particulars to be entered

aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity and any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity

Time of entry

when a change is made, as soon as practicable after the change but, at the latest, before the next flight

Person responsible for entry

The owner of the aircraft and, for any change, the person who made the change

Not just the current data, but the changes to the weight and balance. In other words how much weight was added or subtracted and where it was added or subtracted from as well as the current empty weight and balance.

I believe that is the w+b amendment form it is referring to, which does include all of that info.

[ahramin]

SCHEDULE I(Paragraph 604.127(i), subsection 605.94(1) and Item 3 of Schedule II)

Journey Log

Item

2

Particulars to be entered

aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity and any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity

Time of entry

when a change is made, as soon as practicable after the change but, at the latest, before the next flight

Person responsible for entry

The owner of the aircraft and, for any change, the person who made the change

Not just the current data, but the changes to the weight and balance. In other words how much weight was added or subtracted and where it was added or subtracted from as well as the current empty weight and balance.

No

If there is a change the owner is responsible for entering or ensuring that there is an entry ( if the AME did it) for the new empty weight and empty C of G in the JL. You don't have to enter the reason why or what got added or subtracted in the JL, that information is in the actual W & B sheet and in the JL maintenance release signed by the AME when the work was done, if the amendment was to add or remove equipment.

No.

The owner of the aircraft is responsible for the aircraft empty weight and centre of gravity being in the journey log. For any change, the person who made the change (in this case the AME, not the owner), is responsible for entering any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity. Our POI was very clear on this during the last audit of our Avionics AMO. He specifically pointed out to us that this was required directly by CARs regardless of what our MPM had in it.

In his words:

"aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity and any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity" is not the same as "aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity". The changes must be entered. I'm not asking you to take my word for it BPF, read the CARs and if you are still in doubt, ask someone in your office.

Instructors: I find knowledge of the documentation that pilot must examine to ensure the aircraft is airworthy is a consistent weak area in instructors which means their students are not going to know either.

I agree, and this will continue to be the case until TC deals with the problem at source.

BTW Kudo's to Cap Crunch. My experience is that most private owners don't pay any attention to the aircraft documents even though they are ultimately the ones responsible.

Agreed also, and it's amazing the list of excuses owners come up with for not living up to those responsibilities, even when you point out stuff from the CARs like:

625.86 Maintenance Schedules
Information note:

(i) The phrase "no person shall conduct a takeoff, or permit another person to conduct a take off" is used in the regulations to clearly emphasize an aircraft owner's responsibility to advise any person operating his/her aircraft of any maintenance that the aircraft might require pursuant to the regulations.

While recently going through the paperwork before a ferry flight I was told by the seller that the required maintenance wasn't required because "ATC doesn't care". After pointing out to the buyer that ATC doesn't care if you've done your annual inspection either but it's still required, he insisted on all required items on the maintenance schedule being completed as a condition of the sale. Things went quickly after that.

[photofly]

"aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity and any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity" is not the same as "aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity". The changes must be entered. I'm not asking you to take my word for it BPF, read the CARs and if you are still in doubt, ask someone in your office.

Instructors: I find knowledge of the documentation that pilot must examine to ensure the aircraft is airworthy is a consistent weak area in instructors which means their students are not going to know either.

I agree, and this will continue to be the case until TC deals with the problem at source.

By making sure that TC inspectors know the documentation rules, you mean?

For that matter, I don't think most examiners have much of a clue, either.

[ahramin]

"aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity and any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity" is not the same as "aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity". The changes must be entered. I'm not asking you to take my word for it BPF, read the CARs and if you are still in doubt, ask someone in your office.

Instructors: I find knowledge of the documentation that pilot must examine to ensure the aircraft is airworthy is a consistent weak area in instructors which means their students are not going to know either.

I agree, and this will continue to be the case until TC deals with the problem at source.

By making sure that TC inspectors know the documentation rules, you mean?

For that matter, I don't think most examiners have much of a clue, either.

I don't think it's important for pilots or TC pilot inspectors or instructors or instructor examiners to know rules that only apply to AMEs (unless they want to comment on those rules).

[Big Pistons Forever]

Well I guess I have really stepped in it

This is what happens when you try to rely on your memory instead of going to the CAR and carefully reading it...something I should know better than to do

So item 3 and 11 in Schedule 1 in CAR 605 applies.

Item 2 makes the owner responsible for the accuracy of the data for a new logbook. In practice this would be the tombstone information on the first page of the JL. If there is a change to the W & B after that then "the person making the change" is responsible for updating that page 1 information. In the OP's case a GA private aircraft that will almost always be an AME. That person making the change is also responsible as per item 11 to enter "the particulars of the work" in the JL. This would normally be found in the body of the JL at the date the work was done. In the case of the OP this would be where there would be entry regarding the change of ELT's.

Bottom line, I was wrong and you guys where right to call me on it.


SCHEDULE I
(Paragraph 604.127(i), subsection 605.94(1) and Item 3 of Schedule II)
Journey Log



On starting to keep a journey log and on bringing a new volume of an existing log into use The owner of the aircraft
2 Except where an approved fleet empty weight and balance control program is in place, aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity and any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity On starting to keep a journey log and on bringing a new volume of an existing log into use and, when a change is made, as soon as practicable after the change but, at the latest, before the next flight The owner of the aircraft and, for any change, the person who made the change

11 Particulars of any maintenance action or elementary work performed in respect of items 2, 6, 9, and 10 As soon as practicable after the maintenance action or elementary work is performed but, at the latest, before the next flight The person who performed the maintenance action or elementary work and, where applicable, the person signing the maintenance release

[ahramin]

Lol, I've done worse.