Paperless Digital Maintenance Tracking program

[SR71-1]

Hey guys. I heard some companies use paperless computer program to track maintenance tasks.
What program are you guys using?
Store the defect log & journey log for a large fleet takes long time and large physicals space.
I am wondering if we can get a paperless journey log and defect log plus a completely digital maintenance task cards.
What is the transport requirement? I don't see anything about we can't use digital journey log or defect log.

[Bradley Tucker]

Reach out to me I have something you may be interested in.

Bradley@abovebeyondaviation.com

[photofly]

I'd like to know how any operators with an electronic Journey Log comply with the requirement to carry the Journey Log on board the aircraft for flights planning to shut down other than at the point of departure (CAR605.95(1))

[AirFrame]

I'd like to know how any operators with an electronic Journey Log comply with the requirement to carry the Journey Log on board the aircraft for flights planning to shut down other than at the point of departure (CAR605.95(1))

Keep a spreadsheet in Google Docs and it can be accessed anywhere.

[SR71-1]

I'd like to know how any operators with an electronic Journey Log comply with the requirement to carry the Journey Log on board the aircraft for flights planning to shut down other than at the point of departure (CAR605.95(1))

TC Pilot log book requirement is also similar to this one. Only mentions the requirement but did not state the medium. I seen many pilot use electronic flight log to track their time. If you have log book on your cellphone, you will meet the requirement then.
I am not trying to ply with the rules. But isn't paperless is the way aviation industry is moving toward to？
Do we have AME from Aircanada here? Are you guys still using paper task sheet or digitalized?

[photofly]

I'd like to know how any operators with an electronic Journey Log comply with the requirement to carry the Journey Log on board the aircraft for flights planning to shut down other than at the point of departure (CAR605.95(1))

TC Pilot log book requirement is also similar to this one.

No, no it isn't. There's no requirement to carry a personal on board or anywhere, merely to keep one.

I'm not saying you can't have an electronic Journey Log, just wondering how you comply with the law if you do. Remember, the JL has to be available so the PIC can meet their statutory obligations to record defects at the end of each flight, in places where there's no access to computers or networks. That's why it has to be on board. And that's the law - that it has to be "on board".

[photofly]

I'd like to know how any operators with an electronic Journey Log comply with the requirement to carry the Journey Log on board the aircraft for flights planning to shut down other than at the point of departure (CAR605.95(1))

Keep a spreadsheet in Google Docs and it can be accessed anywhere.

No, that won't do, for lots of reasons. It wouldn't meet the requirements of CAR 625.93. Additionally It can only be accessed from a network-conntected computer; and it's not "on-board". And there's no way to enter a digital signature for a maintenance release.

[SR71-1]

No, that won't do, for lots of reasons. It wouldn't meet the requirements of CAR 625.93. Additionally It can only be accessed from a network-conntected computer; and it's not "on-board". And there's no way to enter a digital signature for a maintenance release.
[/quote]

Thank you so much for your reply. I understand now.

[AirFrame]

No, that won't do, for lots of reasons. It wouldn't meet the requirements of CAR 625.93. Additionally It can only be accessed from a network-conntected computer; and it's not "on-board". And there's no way to enter a digital signature for a maintenance release.

Have you read CAR 625.93 recently?

I just read through it (quickly, I admit) and it's full of information on how to meet it electronically. From what i've read, I would have no problem defending a Google Spreadsheet in front of a tribunal if anyone got their panties in a bunch about not having a paper copy.

[SR71-1]

I just read through it (quickly, I admit) and it's full of information on how to meet it electronically. From what i've read, I would have no problem defending a Google Spreadsheet in front of a tribunal if anyone got their panties in a bunch about not having a paper copy.
[/quote]

I will probably do the same if I have it for a private operation. And if my App able to operate both online and offline.
But do you guys think for the maintenance side of the operation. Will the paperless computer check list slow down AME perform their job?

[photofly]

No, that won't do, for lots of reasons. It wouldn't meet the requirements of CAR 625.93. Additionally It can only be accessed from a network-conntected computer; and it's not "on-board". And there's no way to enter a digital signature for a maintenance release.

Have you read CAR 625.93 recently?

I just read through it (quickly, I admit) and it's full of information on how to meet it electronically. From what i've read, I would have no problem defending a Google Spreadsheet in front of a tribunal if anyone got their panties in a bunch about not having a paper copy.

Why yes, I read it yesterday. It doesn't meet TC requirements. You can't ensure that "no original entry is deleted", and you can't ensure the "record clearly shows that a change has been made and includes all the relevant details, including the identity of the person making the change, the reason for the change, and the content of the original entry prior to the change."

Both of those objections can be overcome, just not by Google Docs. However, even there is still no way to carry an online Journey Log "on board" which is a legal requirement, and if you takeoff and don't carry the JL "on board" (planning to shut down at a point other than your point of departure yada yada) then you're subject to a $1,000/$5,000 penalty per takeoff.

So my question remains, for operators who have been explicitly authorized by TC to use an online JL, how do they get around the requirement to carry the JL "on board"? Is it by ministerial exemption? Or some other method?

[Heliian]

The systems are "paperless", they are not actually paperless.

There's a lot to a digital maintenance program. It's not just an app on your ipad. It's data storage and specific software which needs to be certified by TC for your AMO or operation. There are internet based systems for multilocation use also.

These systems are very, very, very expensive.

[AirFrame]

Why yes, I read it yesterday. It doesn't meet TC requirements. You can't ensure that "no original entry is deleted", and you can't ensure the "record clearly shows that a change has been made and includes all the relevant details, including the identity of the person making the change, the reason for the change, and the content of the original entry prior to the change."

The same could be said about any electronic means of storage. Anything electronic can be deleted without a trace by someone sufficiently skilled in the art. That TC allows electronic logs even with this in mind, means they're flexible on it. We're already trusted to make entries honestly the first time around, which too coulde asily be falsified on a paper copy.

So my question remains, for operators who have been explicitly authorized by TC to use an online JL, how do they get around the requirement to carry the JL "on board"? Is it by ministerial exemption? Or some other method?

You know you can use Google Docs offline, right? And they sync up again once you're back online?

[photofly]

The same could be said about any electronic means of storage. Anything electronic can be deleted without a trace by someone sufficiently skilled in the art. That TC allows electronic logs even with this in mind, means they're flexible on it. We're already trusted to make entries honestly the first time around, which too coulde asily be falsified on a paper copy.

We are, and It can be. But personal flight logs are not "technical records" and are not subject to CAR 605.92 to 605.97, so what TC routinely allows for pilot logbooks is irrelevant when it comes to meeting those regulations and the relevant standards.

So my question remains, for operators who have been explicitly authorized by TC to use an online JL, how do they get around the requirement to carry the JL "on board"? Is it by ministerial exemption? Or some other method?

You know you can use Google Docs offline, right? And they sync up again once you're back online?

That's helpful. So if you carry the document on a laptop with you, you can at least claim you have it "on board". I would still have concerns about simultaneous edits being correctly entered, but I know in principle at least that can be done.

Does Google docs have an auditing capability that records who changed what, and when, with the ability to see the entry prior to the change? Is there a mechanism to enter verifiable digital signatures for a maintenance release?

Anything electronic can be deleted without a trace by someone sufficiently skilled in the art.

Not true. It's straightforward to set up a database so that erasing evidence of interference requires collusion between at least two or often more people. If you have a conspiracy to fabricate maintenance records then you have bigger cultural problems to deal with. TC wants to see at least a first-line and probably a second line defence against this being done.

[palebird]

"The systems are "paperless", they are not actually paperless.

There's a lot to a digital maintenance program. It's not just an app on your ipad. It's data storage and specific software which needs to be certified by TC for your AMO or operation. There are internet based systems for multilocation use also.

These systems are very, very, very expensive."

That is not entirely true and I have heard this before. There is, indeed, a lot to a digital maintenance program. And they can be very expensive. Or not.But the system itself does not have to be approved by TC. You simply have to prove to TC that your system, whatever it may be, performs all the functions that are required by CARS to enable you to track your maintenance as required. That is it. It is up to the operator and/or AMO to discern whether the computer program they are using is performing the tasks required to comply with the regulations. Once again TC uploads all the dirty work to the end user and sinply shows up once in a while to perform a paper (paperless) audit.

[photofly]

That is not entirely true and I have heard this before. There is, indeed, a lot to a digital maintenance program. And they can be very expensive. Or not.But the system itself does not have to be approved by TC. You simply have to prove to TC that your system, whatever it may be, performs all the functions that are required by CARS to enable you to track your maintenance as required. That is it.

I would say it's probably a good idea to do this proving *before* introducing the system into use, in which case, you are effectively asking TC to approve your system, are you not? I think that 18 months after you introduce a system of your own volition that TC later flags up as entirely inadequate at a PVI, you have quite a problem.

[Heliian]

the system itself does not have to be approved by TC. You simply have to prove to TC that your system, ...

The software isn't purchased "approved", the system will be validated by TC prior to full use. They are catching up slowly with technology but eventually you should be able to just switch over to an "approved" system.

[AirFrame]

You know you can use Google Docs offline, right? And they sync up again once you're back online?

Does Google docs have an auditing capability that records who changed what, and when, with the ability to see the entry prior to the change? Is there a mechanism to enter verifiable digital signatures for a maintenance release?

Yes to all but the last one. You can roll back through edits to see when changes were made and by whom. As for "verifiable digital signatures", there's no such thing in a paper-based system so I don't know why it's necessary in a paperless one. A signature can always be forged.

[photofly]

You know you can use Google Docs offline, right? And they sync up again once you're back online?

Does Google docs have an auditing capability that records who changed what, and when, with the ability to see the entry prior to the change? Is there a mechanism to enter verifiable digital signatures for a maintenance release?

Yes to all but the last one. You can roll back through edits to see when changes were made and by whom. As for "verifiable digital signatures", there's no such thing in a paper-based system so I don't know why it's necessary in a paperless one. A signature can always be forged.

What is the equivalent of an AMO's stamp, or signature, in a spreadsheet? There has to be something to distinguish it from just anyone typing their name folllowing "The described maintenance has been accomplished according to the required airworthiness standard".

Signatures can be forged, but this is not a discussion about the weaknesses of paper record keeping. It's a discussion about the weaknesses of electronic record keeping.

[AirFrame]

Signatures can be forged, but this is not a discussion about the weaknesses of paper record keeping. It's a discussion about the weaknesses of electronic record keeping.

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. I'd say it's a discussion about replacing the functionality of a paper-based system with an electronic one, without (necessarily) solving any of the downsides of the paper-based system. Since the paper-based system allows for some degree of "manipulation", the electronic system doesn't need to be "better" than paper at avoiding that. It just can't be any worse.