Exce$$ive ground briefings

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rookiepilot
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#26 Post by rookiepilot » Thu May 10, 2018 6:10 am

Tricky subject. As usual Dar brings a very wise perspective.

I'm happy to pay for -- quality -- ground briefing time. 98% of my billing I thought was very fair, FWIW.

I have paid for extra instructional or review flights at every stage, pre ppl, night, Cpl, IFR -- because I thought It would help me stay alive. It's not a race, students.

The absolute stupidest commentary on these sites has to be "I got my PPL in XX hours back in the day. WTF is wrong with today's students".

Within reason -- who cares? Good for you! If you are progressing normally and have a good learning relationship with an attentive and motivated instructor who wants to see you succeed, while conducting the flights in a safe and professional manner, that's what matters......anyway.......

The only flight I remember having a real issue with billing, the instructor decided to stop the aircraft on the ramp, engine running, and surprise me with an "extra", extensive ground briefing right there.

That happened exactly once.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#27 Post by Conflicting Traffic » Thu May 10, 2018 7:13 am

photofly wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:55 pm
Conflicting Traffic wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:17 pm
For a well prepared student on a lesson that covers only straight and level (which itself is questionable)
What do you find questionable about it?
This early in the training, there are lots of ancillary bits and pieces that are new to the student but have to happen just by the nature of being in an airplane. If S&L is a correct exercise to be covering, then the student has likely only seen Taxiing and Attitudes & Movements previously. What about pilotage, radio, climbs, descents, turns, ancillary controls? Maybe these things have already been briefed, or even flown, but based on the commentary here, that seems unlikely. In any case, if climbs, descents, and turns have been flown but S&L hasn't, that seems a little off to me. If all of these things were in fact briefed with S&L during the lesson in question, then the 1 hour time is reasonable. But again, that isn't the impression I have based on the commentary here.
photofly wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 4:25 am
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 1:22 am
Photofly....Your message gets lost in you hostile delivery.
The f*ck it does.
:lol:
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Conflicting Traffic please advise.

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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#28 Post by B208 » Thu May 10, 2018 7:28 am

altiplano wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:14 pm

Please point out where ground briefing is a "mandatory" in the LICENSING REQUIREMENT. I've pasted the requirements below for your ease of reference... in fact not only is no time specified, pre-flight briefings are not specified at all... instructors might want to do it, but it isn't a requirement.
405.25 to 405.30 reserved


Division IV — Flight Training Operations


Training Flight Briefings

405.31 No person shall commence a training flight unless the trainee has received from the flight instructor

(a) a pre-flight briefing; and


(b) where new flight exercises are to be conducted during the flight, preparatory ground instruction.
That took me 12 minutes (0.2 of an hour) to look up. My rate is $50/hr. You owe me $10. I accept Paypal and e-transfer.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#29 Post by PilotDAR » Thu May 10, 2018 7:43 am


When I trained, I dictated what I would pay.

I don't want to talk about it with your clock running, thanks... I'm good.

Ground briefing is not a licensing requirement.

I had a student adopt this approach with me once. He was doing his instructor rating. I told him to find another instructor.
I too have declined to further train a couple of pilots who were resistant to ground briefing, or flying enough to be able to demonstrate the minimum required skills for the type. I also have declined to write a letter of competence to an insurance company, when the pilot could not demonstrate competence on type.

Happily, I find more often than not, eager pilots will willingly accept and absorb an appropriate amount of training. I judge and meter this by explaining to them why I think that the training (which exceeds the minimums) will benefit them in safety. For the few who resist, I explain why, based upon my experience (which is why they sought to hire me) I think they need more. Then it's up to them....
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#30 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Thu May 10, 2018 9:41 am

Well in my friend’s defence, it was not he who thought he was getting milked. I thought an hour of pre brief for straight and level flight was overkill. Guess times have changed and it takes longer to teach the basics.
Where is Cat when you need him! Lol
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#31 Post by ReserveTank » Thu May 10, 2018 11:36 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:41 am
Well in my friend’s defence, it was not he who thought he was getting milked. I thought an hour of pre brief for straight and level flight was overkill. Guess times have changed and it takes longer to teach the basics.
Where is Cat when you need him! Lol

I don't believe that 1 hour is overkill at all. It's an extremely important lesson and the fundamentals need to be reviewed. Most training issues stem from blowing through this portion of training. Effective ground time costs a lot less that repeating flight lessons. Some people accused me of milking on the ground, but I always had the lowest flight times to PPL for my students, compared to my colleagues.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#32 Post by C.W.E. » Thu May 10, 2018 11:58 am

Where is Cat when you need him! Lol
Oh, I'm here and reading these subjects. :mrgreen:

Ground briefing is very important as it gives the student an outline of what the flight will cover and also gives the instructor clues on what the student does not know.

Once the briefing is finished and you go flying you teach and review only the subjects briefed, in other words once the student has a grasp of the subject and can demonstrate they can fly the manoeuvres briefed you should land and debrief the lesson.

The best improvement to flight training in Canada would be to get rid of the need for a FTU-OC and allow flight training to be done like the FAA does.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#33 Post by lownslow » Thu May 10, 2018 12:07 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 11:58 am
The best improvement to flight training in Canada would be to get rid of the need for a FTU-OC and allow flight training to be done like the FAA does.
Image
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#34 Post by OldInstructor » Sat May 12, 2018 11:07 pm

I was involved in management at two different schools. We chose not to bill for prep briefing unless under extraordinary circumstances but charged a higher rate for the dual and paid the instructors more. Unless all costs are up front your clients will feel duped.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#35 Post by C.W.E. » Sun May 13, 2018 4:50 pm

Back to my saying what Canada needs is to get rid of the FTU-OC fiasco and allow instructors to teach based on the fact they are licensed flight instructors like the FAA does.

We have T.C. inspector's that read these forums I am sure, maybe one could tell us why we need a FTU-OC to be able to teach the PPL?

I believe B.P.F. is a T.C. employee now and is in the flight training department?

Maybe he can comment?
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#36 Post by tbayav8er » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:23 pm

I mean...certain briefings take longer than others. Maybe an hour for the briefing before going on the dual X/C is reasonable, but I think during ab initio, half an hour is usually plenty.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#37 Post by C.W.E. » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:57 pm

I generally take longer on the post flight de-briefing because that is where we correct mistakes that were made during the flight we just finished.

And I use the video of the flight as a de-briefing tool, it is unbeatable for showing where it started to go wrong and how to prevent or correct for it in the future.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#38 Post by smashmonkey » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:48 pm

Was it only straight and level or was it checking the weather, an explanation on where the run up was going to take place, where the training area is, what ancillary controls are, what is going to happen with talking on the radio, etc? This can most definitely take an hour. By the time I was done instructing I realized that I had no interest in training students who didn't want to pay for my time. I never "milked" my students and always had their best interest first. I had one student leave me for another instructor but what they didn't realize is that he might be cheaper on the ground, he made up for it here and there by not cancelling flights that wouldn't benefit the student, making the student do an exercise a few extra times dual, etc.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#39 Post by Big Pistons Forever » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:05 pm

Unlike in Canada where all flight training occurs pursuent to CAR 406, flight training in the USA can occur under 2 sets of regulations Part 61 or Part 141 of the Federal Air Regulations.

The differences are described below

Part 61 vs. Part 141 Flight Training:
When a flight school talks about training under Part 61 or being a Part 141 approved school, it is talking about the federal regulations under which it has the authority to train pilots. Both sets of regulations define minimum requirements for pilot training and certification.
Any FAA-approved flight instructor, whether associated with a flight school or not, may train a student under Part 61 regulations.
Part 141 regulations are related to the structure and approval of flight schools. Training under Part 141 regulations is permitted only by instructors associated with an FAA-approved flight school. In order to become approved, a flight school must meet certain requirements and submit each curriculum it wishes to have approved to the FAA for review. Part 141 approved schools are subject to regular surveillance audits by the FAA and must meet minimum pass rates on the practical exams.

My understanding is that for at least for aspiring commercial pilots, the Part 141 schools have become the preferred training providers because that is what commercial operators want. Of note FAA oversight of Part 141 schools is considerably higher than TC provides for Canadian FTU’s
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#40 Post by Bede » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:11 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:57 pm
And I use the video of the flight as a de-briefing tool, it is unbeatable for showing where it started to go wrong and how to prevent or correct for it in the future.
That's a really good idea. How do you mount the camera?
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#41 Post by badmash » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:24 am

B208 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 5:55 am
altiplano wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:56 pm
When I trained, I dictated what I would pay.

I don't want to talk about it with your clock running, thanks... I'm good.

Ground briefing is not a licensing requirement.
I had a student adopt this approach with me once. He was doing his instructor rating. I told him to find another instructor.
+1 , PGIs are a must before any 'D's in the PTR of a student. A new PPL student has to start from the basics - the flow of the flights, reading the weather, weight and balance , paperwork , walkaround, and so on....
I feel , something as little as 'What radio call to make where' discussed on the ground makes the students job easier in the air. The cockpit is not the place to introduce new items to learn.
Having said that, Briefings should be concise and not last for more than 5 minutes, the PGi last longer depending on the lesson. Now, 1 hour of ST & LEVEL on the Hobbs or the PGI doesnt add up.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#42 Post by photofly » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:19 pm

You don't think that teaching the student reading the weather, weight and balance, paperwork, walk-around can wait until flight 2 or 3? Everything has to be done on the first flight?
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#43 Post by badmash » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:26 pm

photofly wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:19 pm
You don't think that teaching the student reading the weather, weight and balance, paperwork, walk-around can wait until flight 2 or 3? Everything has to be done on the first flight?
Absolutely not ! Its better to have it spread out over multiple lessons . In my opinion briefing is - What are we doing, who will fly for what part, what does the student need to look for , navigation (practice area etc) and weather review. This is when the lesson has been taught in the PGI which lasts long or short depending on student preparation. Sometimes it can takes just 5-10 minutes or go on for 90 minutes for XC planning.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#44 Post by tsulmer » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:59 pm

I completed my PPL in March 2018. I've been at 2 different schools here in Calgary and have had 6 different instructors, and they all charge only for the actual length of the brief. Most of the briefs were short 0.2 or 0.3. The xcountry was longer at 2.0. For most solos they charged 0.2 as a standard regardless of the fact that some of my solos had no pre or post brief and when they did, they were less than 0.1. So, if your friend is being charged 1.0 for every flight, find a new instructor or school!
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#45 Post by C-GOYR » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:37 pm

When it's a dual flight and the exercise is range and endurance and I ask you what is range, only to be told how far you can see...you no longer qualified for a .1. For solo flights I don't charge a briefing time for the time I spend with you prior. This time is spent on asking the student procedures, the flight test standards for the solo exercises to be flown, emergencies and radio calls etc.

I tend to ask questions that would have required you to read at least halfway through the chapter and if you are clueless as to the answer; I know where we stand.

As an instructor I often try to charge no more than a .1 at all times especially on a dual cross country. If you make the effort to come in when I'm in between flights, you pay nothing. A lot of students did this to prep for dual cross country and never got charged an instructor rate.

I was once a student and I understand the financial burden. I'm getting paid and building time on your dollar, the least I can do is not milk you...you also need beer money.

cheers.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#46 Post by CpnCrunch » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:04 pm

If you use pilottraining.ca, it has all of the air exercises which you can use to save time on briefings.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#47 Post by Schooner69A » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:47 pm

When I was in the military, we had the luxury of being able to have the students undergo mass briefings on such things as circuits, clearhood exercises, instrument work, navigation, formation, etc. Those were long briefings. Subsequent pre-flight briefings were exactly that: brief. The student was notified of the following day's lesson and was expected to read the material and be able to related the basics. If he couldn't, he was beat with a stick and the mission scrubbed.

Now, in the civilian world of flying instruction, I am aware that, by and large, such a luxury does not exist. However, if a student has been advised of the contents of the next mission and advised to read up on it - and does - then the pre-flight briefing can be shortened. However, if said student comes in unprepared and still wants to proceed, then the time for the pre-flight brief is what it is and the student should pony up and keep stumm…


The fastest way to find out what the student knows is to toss them the chalk, take a seat, and say "brief me..."
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#48 Post by photofly » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:51 pm

Schooner69A wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:47 pm
The fastest way to find out what the student knows is to toss them the chalk, take a seat, and say "brief me..."
I couldn’t agree more.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#49 Post by digits_ » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:54 pm

photofly wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:51 pm
Schooner69A wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:47 pm
The fastest way to find out what the student knows is to toss them the chalk, take a seat, and say "brief me..."
I couldn’t agree more.
Are you guys still using chalk?
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

#50 Post by Schooner69A » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:01 am

"You guys still using chalk..."?

Kind of betrays my age, doesn't it? Bummer!
(;>0)
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