Logging cross country

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rotorspeed
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Logging cross country

Post by rotorspeed »

As I understand TC definition of cross country is any flight from A to B or even A to A. Do you log it all as cross country or just regular then call it cc for flight test standards
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780Pilot
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by 780Pilot »

I believe it has to be from A - B (could be wrong) ive never logged A - A. If that was allowed a fresh CPL would have all his ATPL x time. Also it has to be 25nm apart.
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rotorspeed
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by rotorspeed »

I don't believe that's true , there is no minimum distance
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rotorspeed
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by rotorspeed »

Transport Canada does not provide a definition of "cross-country" flight in the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs), however, a general consensus among pilots is that, in order to log "cross-country time" in a Pilot's Logbook, the pilot must have demonstrated some kind of navigational ability during the logged period ...
Pulled from web
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780Pilot
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by 780Pilot »

rotorspeed wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:28 pm
Transport Canada does not provide a definition of "cross-country" flight in the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs), however, a general consensus among pilots is that, in order to log "cross-country time" in a Pilot's Logbook, the pilot must have demonstrated some kind of navigational ability during the logged period ...
Pulled from web
Agreed. Because if you show X country time going to and from the practice area for your ATPL thats a flag for the guy or gal going through your times at TC imo.
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rotorspeed
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by rotorspeed »

It's a bit ambiguous. I'm looking mostly for the qualifications for ifr test. Since it doesn't require landing then any time you navigate somewhere it is cross country. Again I'm referring to ifr test requirements.
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doplemosh
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by doplemosh »

My schools 'rule' on logging XC time was that i counted if you needed to file a flight itinerary or flight plan for it, so 25nm or more. Normally our XC time was logged A-B, netting 1.3 - 1.5hrs per trip, but in the even that we needed 0.4hrs XC to meet a requirement, we would fly 25nm to a landmark and fly back.
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rotorspeed
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by rotorspeed »

Thinking more about TC. 25 nm is for flight plan. It's a very broad definition for sure but maybe that's good. It used to be for ppl cross country 3 airports one at least 25 nm away. Obviously that rule has changed
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ahramin
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by ahramin »

When I was logging time for my licences, any time spent navigating to somewhere was logged as cross country time. To and from the practice area, diversion exercise, going from one airport to another one 3nm away, local flight over a friend's house, everything was logged as cross country. Kept track of it all for both dual and PIC flights. No issues with the CPL, instrument rating, or ATPL.
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rotorspeed
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by rotorspeed »

Thanks for help
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455tt
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by 455tt »

Even though you won't find a formal definition for "cross country flight", to avoid licensing trouble and hassles down the road I recommend as follows:

- ensure the cross country flights you log involve the application of navigational methods for the flight, such filing a flight plan, making a navigation log, a set heading point, keeping a constant track using drift correction methods, checking groundspeed, enroute checkpoints with revisions to ETA's etc, not just cruising to a known local training area or a local sightseeing trip with no navigational skill required whatsoever
- a different destination location than the point of departure
- log the departure location, destination, and any intermediate stops for the flight
- log only trips having "real" distance to the trip, such as at least 25 NM would be a good idea but shorter could also be fine, just don't be ridiculous such as logging as cross country a 5 NM trip where the moment you leave the circuit you can see your destination

Remember that there will be persons at various stages in your flying career who will be reading carefully through your logbook such as TC officials, chief pilots etc. with whom you will want to make a good impression. Don't treat this as a joke and be reasonable; all pilots will know the basic idea of what is and what is probably not a "cross country" flight.
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Heavy Rayn
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by Heavy Rayn »

Logging cross country can be done on flights that require “navigation” which is about as ambiguous as it can get. PPL and CPL licences require a set amount of XC time, of which there are parameters that the XC’s must meet. For example the 300nm straight line, 3 stops (excluding departure) for the CPL, and 150nm, 2 stops, for the PPL.

In your case, logging for the 50 required for IR, anything that requires navigation is technically an XC, I remember I even logged some nav departures when I was training for my CPL. Obviously keep it within reason, but there is not a certain set of parameters laid out by TC other than the key words of a ‘flight requiring navigation.’ Honestly it surprised me with how vague the definition was the first time I looked it up.
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ahramin
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by ahramin »

455tt wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:21 am
making a navigation log, a set heading point, keeping a constant track using drift correction methods, checking groundspeed, enroute checkpoints with revisions to ETA's etc
Wow, here I thought I had 10 000 hours of cross country time and it turns out I have 6. Thanks for the heads up.
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455tt
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by 455tt »

You're welcome.

So you got your CPL, IFR and ATPL based on logging all local flights to the practice area and circling a friend's house as cross country experience (as you state) - good for you!

For pilots that prefer to avoid encountering licensing difficulties when applying cross country experience, I would not recommend doing this. Ask a CFI if in doubt as to what can and cannot reasonably be logged as cross country experience.
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photofly
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by photofly »

455tt wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:40 am
You're welcome.

So you got your CPL, IFR and ATPL based on logging all local flights to the practice area and circling a friend's house as cross country experience (as you state) - good for you!
It’s amazing what you can get done in 6 hours with the right instructor.
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ahramin
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by ahramin »

455tt wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:40 am
You're welcome.

So you got your CPL, IFR and ATPL based on logging all local flights to the practice area and circling a friend's house as cross country experience (as you state) - good for you!
Thanks. That's exactly how I got it. By your definition of what is loggable as cross country time I would have had a great deal of licencing difficulties. At the time I got my ATPL, applications were taking 2 months but I got mine in 3 days. When I asked why mine went so fast I was told that because I was well over the requirements they just checked my books for gross errors rather than checking that each and every hour was correct.

So I had no licencing difficulties because I had logged as much time of each type as possible, not despite it.
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455tt
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by 455tt »

And based on your definition of what can be logged as cross country flight we might as well include the walk around and pre-start checklist: if it gets by Transport, it must be valid.
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BGH
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by BGH »

My private had minimum requirements of 3 stops so I landed at Abbotsford,& chilliwack & circled hope & landed at boundary bay;for commercial it needed to be 300 nm one way so it was somewhere north of Prince George.On the ifr cc it was a shot at Abbotsford,shot at Victoria,hold at active pass,shot at Nanaimo & then back to Vancouver - those were the minimum standards in those days.
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ayseven
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by ayseven »

I started in that neck of the woods too, but it was always Vic, Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Powell River, Nanaimo, until I got my licenses, then all over the place. Basically, honesty is the best policy, and you know what a XC really means: and it does not include going to the practice area and back, I am pretty sure of that. Confidence and self-delusion are not the same thing.
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Scuderia
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by Scuderia »

If TC wants pure dead-reckoning techniques to be the sole qualifier for a flight to be considered cross-country, they will say so.

Going to the practice area and back should absolutely qualify as cross-country because navigation techniques are employed.
You're going somewhere by finding your way there.
Just because you have done it hundreds of times and can do it without a hitch and with little effort doesn't mean you're not using navigational techniques. Map reading? Finding landmarks? Even mentally calculating time distance and fuel? All happens on the ground and in the air even for a jaunt along the Fraser from Boundary Bay to the practice areas.


This isn't just a disputed opinion. It's the regulator's interpretation.
My CPL PTR had several flights shown as A-A, less than one hour logged, and ex. 23 ticked for navigation. Minimum hours, licence issued without questions.
My ATPL application included a page I made to show cross country flights for the PIC, night, and night PIC requirements. I did this so they wouldn't need to dig through my logbook, they could look up flights with the dates from that sheet. Crystal clear and in their face was the fact that many of my flights were A-A with no further explanation. I wouldn't have met the requirements without those flights. Again, licence issued without questions.
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digits_
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by digits_ »

Scuderia wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:50 pm
If TC wants pure dead-reckoning techniques to be the sole qualifier for a flight to be considered cross-country, they will say so.

Going to the practice area and back should absolutely qualify as cross-country because navigation techniques are employed.
You're going somewhere by finding your way there.
Just because you have done it hundreds of times and can do it without a hitch and with little effort doesn't mean you're not using navigational techniques. Map reading? Finding landmarks? Even mentally calculating time distance and fuel? All happens on the ground and in the air even for a jaunt along the Fraser from Boundary Bay to the practice areas.


This isn't just a disputed opinion. It's the regulator's interpretation.
My CPL PTR had several flights shown as A-A, less than one hour logged, and ex. 23 ticked for navigation. Minimum hours, licence issued without questions.
My ATPL application included a page I made to show cross country flights for the PIC, night, and night PIC requirements. I did this so they wouldn't need to dig through my logbook, they could look up flights with the dates from that sheet. Crystal clear and in their face was the fact that many of my flights were A-A with no further explanation. I wouldn't have met the requirements without those flights. Again, licence issued without questions.
Agreed. Same here. Lots of flights that counted as cross country flights, that wouldn't have passed some of the definitions in this topic.

The root cause of this discussion is that it is a bit of a silly requirement without further clarification.
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455tt
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by 455tt »

Just so I follow this line of argument, please confirm: if you did a flight where you take off and then, when leaving the departure aerodrome circuit, you can immediately see your destination/practice area, since it is so close, and you then fly straight there visually, and back, this type of flight will be considered by you to be "cross country flight experience" as per Transport Canada licensing requirements, which you would have no concerns with, and which you would happily include, certify and submit on an application for licence/rating?
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digits_
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by digits_ »

455tt wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:10 pm
Just so I follow this line of argument, please confirm: if you did a flight where you take off and then, when leaving the departure aerodrome circuit, you can immediately see your destination/practice area, since it is so close, and you then fly straight there visually, and back, this type of flight will be considered by you to be "cross country flight experience" as per Transport Canada licensing requirements, which you would have no concerns with, and which you would happily include, certify and submit on an application for licence/rating?
Yes.

On the other hand, it will probably only count for 0.2 hours or whatever it is because it is so short.
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455tt
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by 455tt »

And your support for this proposition would be found directly, or indirectly from what Transport Canada published reference?
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ahramin
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Re: Logging cross country

Post by ahramin »

455tt wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:50 pm
And your support for this proposition would be found directly, or indirectly from what Transport Canada published reference?
additional hours cross-country flight time, with flight time calculated in accordance with section 421.10
421.10 Reserved
(effective 2014/04/14)
Transport Canada doesn't know or doesn't care. Either way, anyone who tells you that your cross-country time needs to meet their invented requirements, uses Transport Canada as a vicarious "proof by authority or you'll have trouble getting your licence", then asks you for a reference for the authority that they are referencing without a reference should probably be ignored. Aviation as a hobby or a profession can have serious consequences and there's no room for amateurs posing as experts making up rules that do not exist.
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