Effective passenger safety review

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FenderManDan
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Effective passenger safety review

Post by FenderManDan »

B1. Short Field Approach (CPL test criteria)

Specifies that the candidate
a) Perform an effective passenger safety review
I am thinking seat belt and seat upright and secured. What else in a trainer that will examiner be happy?

I talked to the instructor that is supervising me and he said certain things but we speak different languages (English-French) and something might be lost in translation.

Thanks
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YYZSaabGuy
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

Seat belts secured and seat upright are a great start. You might also consider adding:
1. No smoking permitted.
2. Fire extinguisher location and operation.
3. First aid kit location.
4. Emergency exits and door/hatch operation, if applicable.

Depending on the aircraft size, it may be appropriate (in a C172, for example, not so much in a twin Otter with multiple passengers) to cover off safety look-out for opposing traffic, plus sterile cockpit rules while in the circuit.
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7ECA
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by 7ECA »

A passenger safety review is to placate the examiner, as if they were a passenger. Keep it short and simple, they are a passenger. Something to the effect of "we are going to be landing at Somespot, (maybe consider explaining that since it is a short field approach it will be a bit different than a normal landing) please ensure that your seat is upright/belt secured, please keep your hands and feet away from the controls, if you have any questions let me know."

YYZ, your briefing is a bit more of a pre-takeoff style, including those items. I use something quite similar for the emergency briefings, such as on a forced landing.
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YYZSaabGuy
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

7ECA wrote:YYZ, your briefing is a bit more of a pre-takeoff style, including those items. I use something quite similar for the emergency briefings, such as on a forced landing.
You're absolutely correct. I missed the "Short Field Approach" caption in Fenderman's post. :oops:
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photofly
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by photofly »

We'll be landing soon so make sure your bags are stowed, your seat is upright, and your seat belt is fastened, please.

Ref:605.25, 602.86
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Pop n Fresh
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by Pop n Fresh »

I love these quizzes. Let me try a briefing and the instructors can critique it.

Is your seat belt on and tight, windows and doors closed?

Ok, this runway is nice and short but I have done this before so it should be fine. If things are not quite right when we are close to the runway I might have to power up and go around to set up better. Don't worry that's normal and you can expect some calm grumbling and maybe some bad words.

Keep your hands and feet away from the controls and everything should be good. If you have any pens or sharp objects in your pockets maybe put them in a bag or a nearby airplane pouch. There is one on the side by your feet up front, or on the front seat backs in the back. We might be stopping fast and that stuff can ruin your trousers if it makes a hole in your leg.

Any questions?
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trey kule
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by trey kule »

First I have a couple of questions,

1. Is a safety review different than a pre landing pax briefing. The sense I get from the posts is that they are the same ( though in a forced, it would be different), and
2. What is the significance of it being a short field landing? Are pax briefed differently, if a review is a briefing.

If a field is really a short field, I tend to focus the final approach on flying the airplane, but maybe that is just me.

I originally thought a review would be a quick visual check to make sure seat belts are done up and snug, seat backs, up, if that applies, and nothing laying on the floor of the right front seat that could get behind or interfere with the rudders.

The posts here suggest I have misinterpreted it. What do the flight test guideline say?
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photofly
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by photofly »

The flight test guide (TP13723) has the following for "passenger safety briefing" as part of the pre-flight element:
(i) perform an effective passenger safety briefing that will include:
(i) use of seat belts
(ii) the location and use of emergency exits
(iii) emergency locator transmitter, fire extinguisher
(iv) passenger considerations for aircraft evacuation;
(v) action to take in the event of an emergency landing
(vi) smoking limitations
(vii) items specific to the aeroplane type being used
(viii) other items for use in an emergency.
The phrase "perform an effective passenger safety review" appears five times as a performance criteria, but there's no elaboration in that document as to what it means.

The pilot examiner manual (TP14277) is silent on the issue.
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trey kule
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by trey kule »

thks..
Interesting phrase....safety review....and on an approach...

Maybe a DFTE could shed some light on it??
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by FenderManDan »

trey kule wrote: ...... What do the flight test guideline say?
It is very vague, that is why I am confused what the content of the briefing might be. I have my version of briefing, but I am not sure if it is enough. Obviously there are additional items on the forced that I would mention.

Edit: Just saw photofly reply. That briefing is the pax boarding that I use. Should we use that for all briefings plus the emergency bail instructions for forced?

Thanks for suggestions.
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by photofly »

Just a clarification: one "briefing" is required, during the pre-flight portion, but in flight what is needed is a "review".
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by 5x5 »

We've never had any issues with the basic "Doors closed and locked, seat belts secure". And it's not done on approach/final, it's done on the downwind, or before the base leg on a base join, or before beginning the descent if it's a straight-in. On final, focus on flying the aircraft.
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omgwereallgoingtodie
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by omgwereallgoingtodie »

as photofly says the flight test standards require

"perform an effective passenger safety review;"

I'd go as far as to say that Examiners are pretty liberal with the definition of this. I recall doing the "harness , doors windows" part of my pre landing checks on my flight test. I don't recall doing anything else. All the other stuff was covered in the pre takeoff passenger briefing.

I got 4s on all my takeoffs and landings so can't have messed it up that much
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by Pop n Fresh »

One of the things about a short field that I'm thinking makes it different is there is a higher chance of having to overshoot. Also it might look extra small to a passenger that is used to going into ORD and YYZ.

I think we should explain those things as a heads up before we notice our passenger wide eyed and sweating.
trey kule wrote: Interesting phrase....safety review....and on an approach...
?
On approach? No, get it done while you're still a ways out. I'm going to be busy on final too. Probably just before I would call to enter if it was class C. Ten miles back maybe.
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by photofly »

I might be in a minority (often am) but as a passenger I find verbal assurances of the kind that "this is unusually short field but don't worry about it" often have the opposite effect to the reassuring, calming one intended.
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by trey kule »

You might be in a minority, but I think you are probably right. Pilots like to talk and share their wisdom with the pax.

Fender...you keep posting about briefings. Your OP talks about a safety review.
I dont see them as being the same.

Photo clearly posted the briefing requirements, which say nothing about a pre landing briefing....
Review is not defined. How is it you and others here have equated it with a briefing.

The word review, has, as far as I know, a different meaning.
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Pop n Fresh
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by Pop n Fresh »

trey kule wrote: Fender...you keep posting about briefings. Your OP talks about a safety review.
I dont see them as being the same.

The word review, has, as far as I know, a different meaning.
That is probably this,
he said certain things but we speak different languages (English-French) and something might be lost in translation.
In action. Au revoir.
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by lanceair »

For my students flight tests they give a pax briefing just before starting up which includes seat belts, doors, no smoking etc, they also give a quick pre-take off briefing which includes the type of take off, flap setting, approx rotation speed, climb out speed and no go point. For the approach briefing it's roughly the same idea...type of landing, approach speed, flap setting, touchdown point. Our examiner seems satisfied by this although as far as I'm concerned this is just to give him the numbers so he can grade the student. Oh and on the downwind leg at the tail end of the prelanding checks, the students checks pax seat belt and door is locked. Like I said the examiners are satisfied by this but maybe the ones in your region won't be.
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

lanceair wrote: , the students checks pax seat belt and door is locked.
CAR's requires the seat belt to be on while seated, which is all the time in a light aircraft, I guess you can recheck that the passenger has not disobeyed your direct instruction to keep the seat belt fasten at all times that you gave in your preflight passenger briefing, but in 38 years of flying I have yet to see anyone unfasten their seat belt in flight....

As for checking the door is locked ? Give me a break :( I guarantee you will know the door is unlocked in flight before the moment "You check that the door is closed and locked" because of the extra noise and the draft :roll:

I get that you have to do what is in the flight test guide to pass the flight test, but I would consider that the application of common sense as to what needs to get checked can be applied after that ......
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by photofly »

For most older Cessnas you can have pull the door shut and have it latch, while leaving the handle in the unlocked position. You should still check it's locked, even if it's shut.
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

photofly wrote:For most older Cessnas you can have pull the door shut and have it latch, while leaving the handle in the unlocked position. You should still check it's locked, even if it's shut.
I agree for the before takeoff check, but as this thread is about a before landing check how would the door suddenly go from closed and latched to closed and unlatched ? And even of it was unlatched exactly what is the threat to flight safety ?
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by photofly »

I don't want to make mountains out of molehills here, but have you - or your passengers - never accidentally caught your sleeve on a Cessna door handle in flight? Are you sure that if your passenger did they'd be sure to put it back? If it's not even a tiny flight safety issue, then why bother checking it on the ground?

I'm not saying it's a must-check-or-inevitably-die item, but offering "give me a break :( :roll:" to someone thorough who takes the trouble to check the door handle position after a long flight seems well, a tiny bit dismissive.
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omgwereallgoingtodie
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by omgwereallgoingtodie »

the handles on the 172s that I fly are positioned exactly underneath where your hands (and fingers) would rest naturally.
all it takes is one bump and the passenger to "clutch on" to something and they've potentially pulled the handle up.
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by jschnurr »

[sarcasm]
I believe the doors may mysteriously become unlocked by the same force or magic that mysteriously unlocks the primer knob and turns the master switch off in flight. But by following the checklist, you render the magic inoperative, and that's why it's always wise to double check these important safety items prior to landing. :roll:
[/sarcasm]
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Re: Effective passenger safety review

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

omgwereallgoingtodie wrote:the handles on the 172s that I fly are positioned exactly underneath where your hands (and fingers) would rest naturally.
all it takes is one bump and the passenger to "clutch on" to something and they've potentially pulled the handle up.
Lots of things could happen. A bee could fly out of the vent and bite you on the hand, something that actually happened to me once, but in 39 years of flying I have yet to have a passenger unlatch the door in flight. I don't have "check for bees before opening vents" on the prelanding check and I also don't have "check door latched" either. In both cases the event is very unlikely and even if it were to occur it would not pose an appreciable safety risk.

That been said I get that it is a flight test requirement so you have to do it then, but I tell my students to not bother after that as the check has IMO, so little value and they have better things to worry about.
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