Hey guys I have another question for you.
I've been a little frustrated with my flying lately, I always seem to mess something up, especially while landing. I'm falling behind the other students and to make matters worse I hardly every fly, I've flown once this week because it's been so windy.
I just seem to be a little slower with the practical stuff. I can answer any question, make perfect radio calls, memorize any procedure, and I consistently get 90s in class, but I just can't seem to get it all right in the airplane.
My flight today we were doing circuits with really variable gusty winds. The first circuit I pulled power way too late since I got distracted by adjusting my slip, the next circuit I came in too fast since I was too focused on my altitude, then I kept coming down flat since I couldn't really see the roundout and flare with my slip in, another circuit I came in too high since I thought my power was further back than it actually was.
But I know what I'm suppose to do, I just cant seem to do it.
This flight didn't even count as a lesson in school, it was just practice. I've had more practice flights than any of the other students so far and it's putting me further and further behind in my lessons, and costing me a tun of money for those extra hours.
Does anyone have experience with a situation like this? Does anyone have any suggestions for what I can do to improve my flying and make the most out of my flights? Is there anything I can do on the ground?
Thanks,
Kristen
Getting better at flying...without flying?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
You mentioned speed being a problem a couple times.
When you set yourself up on base, are you getting the aircraft properly trimmed out? This will play a huge part in managing the aircraft for the rest of the approach, and the familiarity of a procedure will allow you to make slight changed from one circuit to the next to accommodate conditions such as gusty winds or a crosswind. The ideal sequence I teach my students goes as such:
Reduce power (+/- 15'' MP in our case, depending on the day, loading, winds, etc), let the aircraft decelerate, add some flaps (1st notch for us), lower the nose to an attitude for 85 kts, TRIM!!! Only after all this is done should you move onto your next task.
Now the students job is to monitor the approach. Will they be turning final roughly 500' AGL? Will they be too high? --> reduce power. Too low? --> add power. Transition to 75kts and full flap (2nd notch for us) on final, re trim, and once again just continue to monitor the approach.
When you set yourself up on base, are you getting the aircraft properly trimmed out? This will play a huge part in managing the aircraft for the rest of the approach, and the familiarity of a procedure will allow you to make slight changed from one circuit to the next to accommodate conditions such as gusty winds or a crosswind. The ideal sequence I teach my students goes as such:
Reduce power (+/- 15'' MP in our case, depending on the day, loading, winds, etc), let the aircraft decelerate, add some flaps (1st notch for us), lower the nose to an attitude for 85 kts, TRIM!!! Only after all this is done should you move onto your next task.
Now the students job is to monitor the approach. Will they be turning final roughly 500' AGL? Will they be too high? --> reduce power. Too low? --> add power. Transition to 75kts and full flap (2nd notch for us) on final, re trim, and once again just continue to monitor the approach.
-
Pop n Fresh
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1270
- Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:46 am
- Location: Freezer.
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
Everyone goes through a, "I can't do this." phase. Some of us go through several of them.
If flying was easy it would be even worse for those trying to make it a career. I've read here it can be pretty bad.
If flying was easy it would be even worse for those trying to make it a career. I've read here it can be pretty bad.
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
Have you tried visualization?
Sit in a chair, close your eyes and imagine a complete curcuit.
Move your hands as you would to the controls etc.
Alternatively walk a circuit in your living room.
I find it invaluable for aerobatics, it may help you and costs nothing to try.
Sit in a chair, close your eyes and imagine a complete curcuit.
Move your hands as you would to the controls etc.
Alternatively walk a circuit in your living room.
I find it invaluable for aerobatics, it may help you and costs nothing to try.
-
Shiny Side Up
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5335
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
- Location: Group W bench
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
+1cgzro wrote:Have you tried visualization?
Sit in a chair, close your eyes and imagine a complete curcuit.
Move your hands as you would to the controls etc.
Alternatively walk a circuit in your living room.
I find it invaluable for aerobatics, it may help you and costs nothing to try.
Its really noticeable who thinks about flying in between flights and who doesn't. Make notes on your lessons too and think about them later, running through any mistakes.
Some points I would say from your brief description.
Don't worry so much about the details. One might say, "free your mind from the tyranny of little things". While its good you're on these things, fly first, worry about talking less.I can answer any question, make perfect radio calls, memorize any procedure, and I consistently get 90s in class, but I just can't seem to get it all right in the airplane.
Don't worry about what everyone else is up to, it ain't important. I find when people start worrying about how they compete, it makes them worse. Its not a race, don't put undue pressure on yourself. Its you and the plane, not you and the plane against Bob, Joe or Jane.I'm falling behind the other students
Time practicing isn't time wasted. No one gets good at anything without practice. Learning doesn't always come in leaps.This flight didn't even count as a lesson in school, it was just practice.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
Kristen,
At every moment you can, think about the actions of flying the plane. Focus your mind on the feeling of the controls, and how the plane moves when you move then controls. Then consider how the plane's reaction to your control inputs differs with airspeed, and other factors you'll come to know.
When you're sitting at the desk, talking on the phone, daydream about flying. Move your toes as though you are applying just the right jabs of rudder to maintain the runway centerline in a gusty cross wind. Feel the pitch forces in your fingertips as you assure that the angle of attack is just so.
Though I agree with keeping the plane trimmed, if trimming actually distracts you from flying, trim it later (the forces will probably have changed again anyway). Trimming will sometimes mask the control forces you should be learning to feel - they are subtle, if you trim them out, they're gone, and your opportunity to get to know them will be delayed.
Imagine that you're watching the plane fly from behind. Is it following that nice neat flight path line in three dimensions? Or is it weaving a maypole ribbon around your desired path? What would you do to assure the desired precision? Would you precisely pitch roll and yaw? Rudder to keep the ball in the middle?
I've been flying for 39 years, and I still find my feet moving imaginary pedals to track my taildragger straight down the runway in a crosswind, while I'm at my desk!
At every moment you can, think about the actions of flying the plane. Focus your mind on the feeling of the controls, and how the plane moves when you move then controls. Then consider how the plane's reaction to your control inputs differs with airspeed, and other factors you'll come to know.
When you're sitting at the desk, talking on the phone, daydream about flying. Move your toes as though you are applying just the right jabs of rudder to maintain the runway centerline in a gusty cross wind. Feel the pitch forces in your fingertips as you assure that the angle of attack is just so.
Though I agree with keeping the plane trimmed, if trimming actually distracts you from flying, trim it later (the forces will probably have changed again anyway). Trimming will sometimes mask the control forces you should be learning to feel - they are subtle, if you trim them out, they're gone, and your opportunity to get to know them will be delayed.
Imagine that you're watching the plane fly from behind. Is it following that nice neat flight path line in three dimensions? Or is it weaving a maypole ribbon around your desired path? What would you do to assure the desired precision? Would you precisely pitch roll and yaw? Rudder to keep the ball in the middle?
I've been flying for 39 years, and I still find my feet moving imaginary pedals to track my taildragger straight down the runway in a crosswind, while I'm at my desk!
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
Off topic, but I'm curious if you fly the Zlin 242 by chance? Sounds exactly like the circuit procedures in that plane.eggy wrote:Reduce power (+/- 15'' MP in our case, depending on the day, loading, winds, etc), let the aircraft decelerate, add some flaps (1st notch for us), lower the nose to an attitude for 85 kts, TRIM!!! Only after all this is done should you move onto your next task.
Now the students job is to monitor the approach. Will they be turning final roughly 500' AGL? Will they be too high? --> reduce power. Too low? --> add power. Transition to 75kts and full flap (2nd notch for us) on final, re trim, and once again just continue to monitor the approach.
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
I Agree with all tips so far.
The best learning experience I had was screwing up so bad on approaches my Instructor had to take over and complete the approach. I was amazed how he turned an epic mess into a nice smooth landing. He was a taildragger glider tow and banner pilot so his control was brilliant. I realized what the limits were when you develop an understanding of how an aircraft operates though air. I was watching all types of bush flying videos and sitting at the airfield watching people complete approaches.
I use to race karts when I was younger and you learn to race by breaking that point of control, without spinning out or running off the track you can't actually learn to race.
I also realized that only transport category aircraft actually flare on landing (CRJ's not so much lol) A smaller aircraft has the "transition to slow flight" because the aircraft tends to be pitched down on the approach instead of a nose up attitude. Once I started thinking of the landing as a transition to slow flight while looking at the end of the runaway I was dialed in.
The best learning experience I had was screwing up so bad on approaches my Instructor had to take over and complete the approach. I was amazed how he turned an epic mess into a nice smooth landing. He was a taildragger glider tow and banner pilot so his control was brilliant. I realized what the limits were when you develop an understanding of how an aircraft operates though air. I was watching all types of bush flying videos and sitting at the airfield watching people complete approaches.
I use to race karts when I was younger and you learn to race by breaking that point of control, without spinning out or running off the track you can't actually learn to race.
I also realized that only transport category aircraft actually flare on landing (CRJ's not so much lol) A smaller aircraft has the "transition to slow flight" because the aircraft tends to be pitched down on the approach instead of a nose up attitude. Once I started thinking of the landing as a transition to slow flight while looking at the end of the runaway I was dialed in.
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
A useful and insightful statement.A smaller aircraft has the "transition to slow flight" because the aircraft tends to be pitched down on the approach instead of a nose up attitude. Once I started thinking of the landing as a transition to slow flight while looking at the end of the runaway I was dialed in.
But it is the "to" [slow flight] which is key. Yes, to land best, you will fly the aircraft into a pitch attitude, and deceleration, while accelerating upward from a descent path, which is the same as approach to slow flight. However, to be in slow flight requires adding power, which should be avoided after you have begun the flare. But, use of power aside, the comparison is a good one.
As your flying skills improve, you will know more precisely where the plane is in space. As your flying skills become really good, you will begin to know where the plane could be in the future moments, and control it so as to be in the one of those places most to your liking. That's known as "being ahead of the plane".
Judgement is knowing what could and should happen, skill is making it happen.
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
As you've mentioned flying is a combination of book smarts and ongoing hand-eye coordination. I was in a bit of a same boat as you (book smart, some trouble with stick-and-rudder) and ended up spending a lot of money on practice flights.
Problem is that of course "knowing" is only half the battle and real proficiency comes when the pilot's actions happen without thinking about things too much.
Some extra $ may be inevitable but some tips (some repeats of above)
Problem is that of course "knowing" is only half the battle and real proficiency comes when the pilot's actions happen without thinking about things too much.
Some extra $ may be inevitable but some tips (some repeats of above)
- Chair flying is useful. If you are allowed to perhaps you can do this in the cockpit while the planes are grounded
- Don't fight the last war / landing. in other words, don't get your brain overly caught up with what went wrong the last few times because THIS time you're probably going to be dealing with something different. Deal with what's in front of you and what you expect to be true.
- You've probably heard this but the key to a good landing is a good approach. Don't let the airplane get ahead of you.
- You may also find it useful to let your instructor fly one in gusty / variable (which are challenging in their own right) while you lightly "ride" the controls to see what the inputs are like
- To keep from getting fixated on one thing I sort of cycled through three things on final - glance at airspeed - adjust; keep on centreline - adjust; keep on path toward aim point - adjust. Adjustments only if needed of course
Low time PPL
-
praveen4143
- Rank 5
- Posts: 333
- Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:26 pm
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
+1 to what everyone says above here... Here's anther one.. If your field is uncontrolled try to walk down to the runway and sit at a good vantage point and try to see how airplane land.. Sometimes you need to understand a landing from the outside!
+100 to couch flying!
+100 to couch flying!
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
Hey guys thank you for replying, again your responses are fantastic! My internet has been absolutely terrible the past week or so so I'm sorry I'm a little late with the reply (and I think I posted twice as well). I literally can't even load a webpage sometimes.
Eggy, I do believe I could do better with trim. I definitely try to trim, but never feels as concrete as when my instructor does it. I think maybe I need to try holding the yoke a little lighter so I have a better idea of if it's properly trimmed or if I'm just holding it. With the crosswind, when I add ailerons I do notice I sometimes accidentally change my pitch as well. I've only been using 20 degrees of flaps lately so final isn't too busy. However, my last lesson (soft field+crosswind) was a lot more difficult since I was using a different runway which was grass, with an upslope, of course no center line, a crosswind, up/down drafts and 40 degrees of flaps. With that many things going on I find it really hard to adjust.
True Pop n Fresh, everyone else at school sure makes it seem like they have no issues though.
Cgzro, I did visualization quite a bit while I was learning to do circuits. I haven't lately since everything I have trouble with now involves reacting to the wind, altitude, and horizon. But maybe I should give it another try, I don't have anything to lose, thanks!
Shiny Side Up, thanks for your advice! I'll give the visualization another try for sure. The thing that really bothers me about being behind and getting so much extra practice is I really can't afford it. I'm not sure how I'm going to pay for the rest of school if I have 5 flights for everyone else's 3. But I'll try not to let it get to me and just focus on flying.
PilotDAR, that makes sense. I have noticed if I lose sight of the big picture, what the airplane is really doing and why it is doing it, my approach gets messed up big time. There's a lot to pay attention to on final, but I'll give your advice a try, especially sitting at my desk, and flying downwind would be a really good time too.
Toretto, I definitely notice that when my instructor takes over. If I do something wrong and lose track of the airplane and she takes control everything becomes so much smoother. The airport for my school has planes taking off and landing all the time that I could be watching, maybe that would help put everything together. I may even be able to sit in the back for someone else's circuits, I'm sure that would help too.
Xysn, thanks for the awesome tips! I will try to apply every point form your list in to my flying and see how it goes. I know a lot of the time I fly the last flight, or completely ignore it, not learning from my mistakes so I'll have to try and find a smart balance. Staying ahead of the aircraft is something I hear a lot too. I often get distracted and overwhelmed so maybe saying what I'm going to do next might help, as well as using a scan pattern like you mentioned. I'd really like to ride the controls on a gusty approach, I've always been a little hesitant to ask since the time I'm flying already goes by so fast, but maybe it's worth it.
Praveen, that's good advice. Like I mentioned, I'll have to give that a try, there's plenty of planes to watch, and even a picnic table to sit at now that it's nice.
Thanks so much guys!
Eggy, I do believe I could do better with trim. I definitely try to trim, but never feels as concrete as when my instructor does it. I think maybe I need to try holding the yoke a little lighter so I have a better idea of if it's properly trimmed or if I'm just holding it. With the crosswind, when I add ailerons I do notice I sometimes accidentally change my pitch as well. I've only been using 20 degrees of flaps lately so final isn't too busy. However, my last lesson (soft field+crosswind) was a lot more difficult since I was using a different runway which was grass, with an upslope, of course no center line, a crosswind, up/down drafts and 40 degrees of flaps. With that many things going on I find it really hard to adjust.
True Pop n Fresh, everyone else at school sure makes it seem like they have no issues though.
Cgzro, I did visualization quite a bit while I was learning to do circuits. I haven't lately since everything I have trouble with now involves reacting to the wind, altitude, and horizon. But maybe I should give it another try, I don't have anything to lose, thanks!
Shiny Side Up, thanks for your advice! I'll give the visualization another try for sure. The thing that really bothers me about being behind and getting so much extra practice is I really can't afford it. I'm not sure how I'm going to pay for the rest of school if I have 5 flights for everyone else's 3. But I'll try not to let it get to me and just focus on flying.
PilotDAR, that makes sense. I have noticed if I lose sight of the big picture, what the airplane is really doing and why it is doing it, my approach gets messed up big time. There's a lot to pay attention to on final, but I'll give your advice a try, especially sitting at my desk, and flying downwind would be a really good time too.
Toretto, I definitely notice that when my instructor takes over. If I do something wrong and lose track of the airplane and she takes control everything becomes so much smoother. The airport for my school has planes taking off and landing all the time that I could be watching, maybe that would help put everything together. I may even be able to sit in the back for someone else's circuits, I'm sure that would help too.
Xysn, thanks for the awesome tips! I will try to apply every point form your list in to my flying and see how it goes. I know a lot of the time I fly the last flight, or completely ignore it, not learning from my mistakes so I'll have to try and find a smart balance. Staying ahead of the aircraft is something I hear a lot too. I often get distracted and overwhelmed so maybe saying what I'm going to do next might help, as well as using a scan pattern like you mentioned. I'd really like to ride the controls on a gusty approach, I've always been a little hesitant to ask since the time I'm flying already goes by so fast, but maybe it's worth it.
Praveen, that's good advice. Like I mentioned, I'll have to give that a try, there's plenty of planes to watch, and even a picnic table to sit at now that it's nice.
Thanks so much guys!
-
Pop n Fresh
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1270
- Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:46 am
- Location: Freezer.
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
Once a pilot figures out something giving them a hard time they usually never bring it up again or pretend it never happened for years, until it is far enough in the past to no longer be a threat to their delicate egos.KDewald wrote:
True Pop n Fresh, everyone else at school sure makes it seem like they have no issues though.
The best way to get over any issue is to get a little dual to learn the right techniques then practice them as much as possible, occasionally having an instructor take a ride to make sure what you are doing is good technique.
After a long break I flew dual for a while, when I went solo again I realized I had been thinking way too much about demonstrating everything. (The instructor probably needs to see me do this..) Suddenly it was very relaxing to just fly the plane. Next time I flew dual it was better too.
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
Even if they're "ahead" of you now, they'll have their chance to be behind you in the future. I've had some days in training where I felt like I was in over my head and I should find a new hobby/eventual career choice. But, those days don't happen as often as the days where I feel like I can't wait to have my licenses in hand and be apart of the pilot club. Don't psych yourself out, because its the easiest thing to do. The best way to rid those feelings is to practice, practice, practice. And like Pop n Fresh said too, maybe practice dual so someone can validate you're doing it correctly.
Self compassion helps too. You're a student. Students are supposed to make mistakes. These last few days in Alberta have been thee WORST for flying. Strong, gusty winds in central Alberta make it a tough time, and I've walked away last week thinking this is over my ability. It is over my ability, and will continue to be over my ability if I don't go up and practice. So of course its going to be tough, I've never done this stuff before. Ever. Practicing in non-idea, yet safe, conditions make you a better pilot, its all excellent experience.
Chair flying is thee most valuable, priceless, and free tool you can use to your advantage. Flight simulator is pretty good I find, but chair flying is much better. Try some!
Also, if you feel like you're letting the airplane get ahead of you on approach, go around. If you feel like you're overwhelmed in the last thirty feet over the piano keys of the runway, go around. Just because you didn't land doesn't mean you didn't learn anything, sometimes learning how to set up a stable approach is all you need for a successful landing. Because, after all, a good landing starts with a good approach. I've done it a few times where I've set up a stable approach, and just before flare, ball to the wall and go around.
God speed, and just know, everyone has been in the same shoes as you. And there are more people to come who will feel the same way.
Self compassion helps too. You're a student. Students are supposed to make mistakes. These last few days in Alberta have been thee WORST for flying. Strong, gusty winds in central Alberta make it a tough time, and I've walked away last week thinking this is over my ability. It is over my ability, and will continue to be over my ability if I don't go up and practice. So of course its going to be tough, I've never done this stuff before. Ever. Practicing in non-idea, yet safe, conditions make you a better pilot, its all excellent experience.
Chair flying is thee most valuable, priceless, and free tool you can use to your advantage. Flight simulator is pretty good I find, but chair flying is much better. Try some!
Also, if you feel like you're letting the airplane get ahead of you on approach, go around. If you feel like you're overwhelmed in the last thirty feet over the piano keys of the runway, go around. Just because you didn't land doesn't mean you didn't learn anything, sometimes learning how to set up a stable approach is all you need for a successful landing. Because, after all, a good landing starts with a good approach. I've done it a few times where I've set up a stable approach, and just before flare, ball to the wall and go around.
God speed, and just know, everyone has been in the same shoes as you. And there are more people to come who will feel the same way.
-
Chuck Ellsworth
- Rank 11
- Posts: 3074
- Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
- Location: Always moving
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
In a general sense this statement has some truth.Because, after all, a good landing starts with a good approach.
However the best approach can go all to hell if the wind and or turbulence changes just prior to touch down.
Reading these forums can be beneficial, just remember some of the advice can be way wrong.
When in the training phase of learning to fly you need to find a good instructor and have the instructor help you when you are unsure.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
-
Shiny Side Up
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5335
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
- Location: Group W bench
Re: Getting better at flying...without flying?
One should note that having trouble now doesn't necessarily mean that will be the trend for your entire flight training. Often when people feel this way I sit down with them, we review their PTR and come to the conclusion that they will complete in a spectacularly average time.KDewald wrote:
Shiny Side Up, thanks for your advice! I'll give the visualization another try for sure. The thing that really bothers me about being behind and getting so much extra practice is I really can't afford it. I'm not sure how I'm going to pay for the rest of school if I have 5 flights for everyone else's 3. But I'll try not to let it get to me and just focus on flying.
Again, don't worry about what everyone else is doing. You don't know what difficulties they're having, most pilots would like to let you believe they were born to it, and that just ain't so. If you ask 90% of the pilot population they're going to tell you how awesome they are, and statistically that doesn't coorelate.
Not sure why, but something frequently I have to tell students, whether its in the plane or in the classroom, is "worry about you, not about them".
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
