Knowledge and Application

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KDewald
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Knowledge and Application

Post by KDewald »

Hey guys I have another question for you.
I've been a little frustrated with my flying lately, I always seem to mess something up, especially while landing. I'm falling behind the other students and to make matters worse I hardly every fly, I've flown once this week because it's been so windy.

I just seem to be a little slower with the practical stuff. I can answer any question, make perfect radio calls, memorize any procedure, and I consistently get 90s in class, but I just can't seem to get it all right in the airplane.
My flight today we were doing circuits with really variable gusty winds. The first circuit I pulled power way too late since I got distracted by adjusting my slip, the next circuit I came in too fast since I was too focused on my altitude, then I kept coming down flat since I couldn't really see the roundout and flare with my slip in, another circuit I came in too high since I thought my power was further back than it actually was.
But I know what I'm suppose to do, I just cant seem to do it.

This flight didn't even count as a lesson in school, it was just practice. I've had more practice flights than any of the other students so far and it's putting me further and further behind in my lessons, and costing me a tun of money for those extra hours.

Does anyone have experience with a situation like this? Does anyone have any suggestions for what I can do to improve my flying and make the most out of my flights? Is there anything I can do on the ground?
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PropToFeather
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by PropToFeather »

I've got a couple of questions for you:

1) How well are your checklists for your after take-off, downwind, and before landing? Can you do all of them calmly but briskly while also keeping the plane in a proper attitude?
2) What seems to be the area that trips you up the most? Is it keeping centre line with a slip or a crab? Or is it flying the approach angle?
3) What kinds of crosswinds are you dealing with, are they close to the POH limits/average demonstrated limits?

In my experience, it really took a few flights to get the procedure of doing the setups for your power/flaps/prop (if you have it) down. Once that was done, it felt like flying the approaches was much easier. Also, that early in training, I found that crabbing for about 10 seconds once you are established on final gives you a somewhat reasonable expectation of winds - if you're crabbing 30 or more degrees just to keep centered, that's going to be a tough approach no matter what!

As for the ground stuff, what I would recommend is practicing your proper crab and side slip inputs on the ground. If you've got another pilot that could help you, that's even better. Close your eyes, use your hands and feet, and ask for some sort of scenario. I, personally, found that to be the hardest part (YMMV, of course). Once you've got the actual directional stuff down, do it every time! It'll take away one more thing you need to worry about, and then you can concentrate on fiddling with power, flaps, and speed.

Oh, and when it comes to practice, if you're with an instructor and you've got another airport with less crosswind nearby, see if you can go practice there. High crosswind can be fun once you have the basics down, but it's a nightmare when you're just learning.

Cheers, hope that helps!

PS: This may or may not be helpful (it certainly helps me!), but it may be useful to verbally confirm when you've completed a step, and to tell yourself what's next. It gets you thinking about what you need to do in a little bit, which then helps to figure out just how you're going to do it (ie: "Ok, before descent completed, going to turn base, winds are from the right, so I'll have a headwind on base, and will have to crab left on final")
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by CpnCrunch »

You said you had just gone solo a week or two ago, so I'm guessing you only have something like 10 or 20 hours. I think it's perfectly normal for your landings to be somewhat less than perfect at your current level of training. It just takes a lot of practice. I think it took me until about 100 hours before I could really land almost perfectly almost every time. Crosswinds and gusty conditions make it more difficult, and I certainly had a lot of problems landing in crosswinds in the first 100 hours -- it required a lot of thinking to figure out which controls to move. Now I don't need to think about it. You just need to get enough practice and eventually it will become an automatic skill.

The only tip I would give is don't be afraid to make the plane do what you want it to do. If it's gusty you need to be constantly adjusting power to compensate for updrafts and downdrafts, and if there's a gusty crosswind you need to be moving your hands and feet quickly to keep the plane doing what you want. And if you find yourself sinking on short final due to a downdraft, immediately add some power. Eventually you'll feel that the plane is almost an extension of your body and you won't even need to think about it. Just practice and you'll get to that point.

Flying once a week is fine, although twice a week might be better. Maybe you should try flying on some calm days to boost your confidence and hone some of the skills without being overloaded.

Oh, and you mentioned that you couldn't see the runway during your roundout while in a slip. Is your seat high enough? If you're very short, you might need to sit on a cushion.
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KDewald
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by KDewald »

Sorry guys I kind of posted a similar topic twice. My internet wasn't working very well (seriously I couldn't even load a webpage) so I didn't think my last topic went through. Totally my bad.

Thank you for your replies though!

ProptoFeather, thanks for the advice! I think my checks are pretty good. I can do them quite quickly, and I'm left with quite a bit of time on downwind after my landing checks. I usually maintain the attitude pretty well, however lately with the crazy wind staying straight and maintaining altitude has been more difficult, but I'm never too far off, and I fix it immediately.
What gets me is right before I land. Holding the slip while watching for roundout and flare just feels really weird at an angle so either I flare too early or too late and land hard, pitch down too far and land hard, or change my aileron input and land off center.
For our crosswind lessons we do a minimum of 10 knots of crosswind, last time I did it with a gusty 7 though, just as practice.
Practicing my slips on the ground and verbally confirming my actions sound like great ideas! I will try those, thanks for the advice!

CpnCrunch, thank you for helping me out again! I have about 23 hours now I believe. When I started off in January I think my landings were nicer than they are now. The air was far more dense and there was a lot less wind, so it's a bit frustrating. I can't seem to get a handle on the new weather, even though I know the less dense air will mean a longer float, and that I'll need to adjust for the wind. I try to adjust my inputs quickly but I know I'm a little slow on the power sometimes (it takes me a moment to evaluate my height).
I'd like to fly on more clam days but the reason I never get to fly is because we've had storm after storm, fog, snow, ice and crazy wind. My next lesson is solo circuits, but we've been waiting since my solo for the wind to calm down.
I'm quite tall, what I mean about seeing the runway is it just looks weird when I'm coming down tilted doing a slip, so I it's harder to recognize when to roundout.
I think I need to change my aim point too, I've been aiming for the end of the runway, but I don't really like that since I feel too close to the grass, as a result I always come in high and have too much energy to dissipate while landing.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by CpnCrunch »

Where are you looking when you're in the flare?

Also, regarding floating vs air density: I'm pretty sure that's something you don't need to worry about. Your true airspeed will just be slightly higher, but you'll land when your indicated airspeed says you'll land and that isn't affected by air density. (I'm sure photofly will come in and correct me if I'm wrong about that).

If you're floating for a long time it probably means you're coming in too fast. 172s really love to float if you're slightly too fast. What's your airspeed at the start of the flare?
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Where are you looking when you're in the flare?
First off what part of the approach and landing is the " flare "
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by CpnCrunch »

. . wrote:
First off what part of the approach and landing is the " flare "
It's the roundout. At least, that is what the FAA and Thom defines it as. I think perhaps some people refer to only the hold-off as the flare.

Regarding where to look in the flare, according to Thom:

"To achieve the best depth perception and develop a feel for just where the main wheels are in relation to the ground, it is best to look ahead and to the left of the aeroplane's nose. If you look too close, the ground will be blurred as it passes by; too far and your depth perception will suffer".
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Kdewald

I think it is important to define "good landing" particularly in the context of PPL training. How smoothly the wheels touch the runway is the least important metric. What matters is that the aircraft touched down in the correct tail low landing attitude, that it was straight and on or near the runway centerline when the wheels touched and the touchdown occurred around 500 feet but not more than 1000 feet from the end of the runway.

If you flare and then hold the landing attitude and the wheels touch with a small thump but the conditions above are met than you have made a good landing.
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photofly
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by photofly »

CpnCrunch wrote:Where are you looking when you're in the flare?

Also, regarding floating vs air density: I'm pretty sure that's something you don't need to worry about. Your true airspeed will just be slightly higher, but you'll land when your indicated airspeed says you'll land and that isn't affected by air density. (I'm sure photofly will come in and correct me if I'm wrong about that).

If you're floating for a long time it probably means you're coming in too fast. 172s really love to float if you're slightly too fast.
+1

Hard to tell, but it reads like you're side-slipping all the way into the flare quite often. In a 172 that's a technique to fix an approach that could have been better, but maybe you could work on getting the approach set up better so it's not necessary?
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by Rookie50 »

Sounds like too much energy. As stated 172's love to float, especially new R models. They land best power off, speed not above 65 on final, typically (and can be slower).
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KDewald
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by KDewald »

I definitely think speed could be a factor. I can nail 65 early in final, but once I'm on short final I usually come in too high and pitch down as a decrease power rapidly.
At my school we were taught that round out is the transition to cruise flight and flare is the transition into nose high attitude. To tell when to round out we look for runway expansion and the ground coming up fast, to know when to flare we watch the horizon and wait until it appears we're sinking. That period after round out and before flare is when the plane has been floating a lot, it feels like I'm waiting forever for the flare, but if I flare too early I'll just continue to float. I was told the increase in float time between round out and flare is due to air density, because it has been a lot longer since the weather has warmed up. Then we're suppose to hold the flare until the nose wheel touches the ground, which apparently I need to get better at. I feel like I'm holding it but I think I let it out a bit without even noticing.
I was told to hold my slip right through the flare and land on one wheel, which feels so weird, that really messes me up.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

KD :

Whoever is teaching you is using a method that I find rather unorthodox when describing the transition from the approach attitude to the landing.

I always understood the sequence description to be " From the approach attitude you round out ( or flare ) to the level attitude and based on height above the runway after the round out you hold the airplane off the runway as speed and lift decay, ideally touch down will be just above the stall with the nose in a nose up attitude.

The secret to good approaches...round outs and touch downs is accurate judgement of height above the landing surface.

Once the round out ( flare ) is accomplished and you are waiting for speed and lift to decay to touch down speed one should not be looking to close in where the picture blurs nor to far ahead where height judgement gets progressively more difficult.....the ideal point ahead of the aircraft to center your sight focus is at the point where apparent movement of the runway towards you ceases.

This distance will vary with speed, in light aircraft it is about 500 feet down the runway.

C.E.
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PropToFeather
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by PropToFeather »

KDewald wrote:I feel like I'm holding it but I think I let it out a bit without even noticing. I was told to hold my slip right through the flare and land on one wheel, which feels so weird, that really messes me up.
I'm pretty sure, despite the fact that I've trained out east, I had the same issue with my landings in a 172. The wheel touching the ground first definitely feels weird to hold, and that won't go away for a while, until your brain gets used to it. Also, I don't think anyone brought it up, but try to keep your head level with whatever you're referencing on your approach throughout the whole time. I know I had a bit of a tendency to tilt it when side-slipping the 172 on final, which then screwed up my picture, which then made me over-correct.

I think someone brought it up in the other thread, but, again: avoid sudden pitch/power changes when you're coming up on the runway. If you're already at idle, and you're really high, it's probably best to overshoot instead of pitching down... since, you'll build enough speed that you'll float awhile, and may run out of runway regardless (but, now you're running out of runway without all the airspeed to get you airborne). The rule of thumb from my first instructor was, limit your changes to 100 or so RPM, or a couple of degrees of pitch, and then wait a bit to see what effect those had. Gusts are a bit trickier, but, again, limit your bank changes when you're close to the ground.

For my own experience (back in ye ole PPL training), I've been taught a similar technique as you: slip it until the into-wind gear is on the ground, then gradually release the slip once it's firmly planted. I'd be lying if I said that I had a perfect (crosswind) landing in that Cessna until almost near my PPL flight test, when it just "clicked". So, don't focus on perfection - focus on improvement!
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

even though I know the less dense air will mean a longer float,
Are you sure?
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After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

. . wrote:KD :

Whoever is teaching you is using a method that I find rather unorthodox when describing the transition from the approach attitude to the landing.

I always understood the sequence description to be " From the approach attitude you round out ( or flare ) to the level attitude and based on height above the runway after the round out you hold the airplane off the runway as speed and lift decay, ideally touch down will be just above the stall with the nose in a nose up attitude.

The secret to good approaches...round outs and touch downs is accurate judgement of height above the landing surface.

Once the round out ( flare ) is accomplished and you are waiting for speed and lift to decay to touch down speed one should not be looking to close in where the picture blurs nor to far ahead where height judgement gets progressively more difficult.....the ideal point ahead of the aircraft to center your sight focus is at the point where apparent movement of the runway towards you ceases.

This distance will vary with speed, in light aircraft it is about 500 feet down the runway.

C.E.
+ 1
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by CpnCrunch »

Is it my imagination, or did BPF and . just agree on something?
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by Shiny Side Up »

KDewald wrote: That period after round out and before flare is when the plane has been floating a lot, it feels like I'm waiting forever for the flare, but if I flare too early I'll just continue to float.
Couple of things. First, make sure you're at idle power at this point. Its worth checking with a little extra tug on the throttle to make sure. Any extra power translates into a lot of float. On that note make sure you're not jockeying the power to fish for a greaser, that only increases your landing distances which isn't the goal at this point. Also on that note, flight school airplanes are notorious for having high idle power settings on the misguided thought that it keeps plugs from getting fouled - but plugs being fouled is more a consequence of long checklists in other inefficiencies. I prefer the lowest setting you can get away with, saves more on brakes and tires. I digress.

Second, don't carry speed right down to the round-out (or whatever one wants to call it). You don't want to be right at your approach speed until right over the end of the runway, otherwise all this speed has to be spent after. Remember that on a full stop landing, your speed eventually needs to get to zero, so you have to think about how that's going to bleed off from point to point. Remember in the flare/round out you're entering ground effect, so the airplane is becoming more efficient at flying just when you don't want it to be, more so when it has more airspeed. Shiny's unorthodox suggestion: Watch how birds land.


Then we're suppose to hold the flare until the nose wheel touches the ground, which apparently I need to get better at. I feel like I'm holding it but I think I let it out a bit without even noticing.
As the airplane slows down on the runway, and especially as you apply braking, the nose wants to pitch down more. So holding the control column stationary won't do, ideally the stick should be back against the stop by the time you stop. Students unfortunately have a bad tendency to make a sigh of relief as soon as the wheels touch and things go sideways. In a nose dragger, your nose wheel is your weak link, think about protecting it and your prop.
I was told to hold my slip right through the flare and land on one wheel, which feels so weird, that really messes me up.
Get someone to demo a one wheel landing for you. Its tough to figure out if you've never seen one. If your instructor can't do it, you might need another instructor.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Get someone to demo a one wheel landing for you. Its tough to figure out if you've never seen one. If your instructor can't do it, you might need another instructor.
Change the word " might " to " Absolutely must ".
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by photofly »

PropToFeather wrote: For my own experience (back in ye ole PPL training), I've been taught a similar technique as you: slip it until the into-wind gear is on the ground, then gradually release the slip once it's firmly planted.
Actually don't release the slip at all. As you slow down the yoke should go smoothly *full* over into the wind, while you continue to use the rudder pedals to steer straight. Into-wind aileron helps you maintain directional control through the rollout, and is also the correct aileron input for taxiing into a crosswind.

If you're worried about when the upwind wheel touches down, don't be: the aircraft will do that automatically as it slows.

Remember to fly the airplane all the way to the tie-down.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Knowledge and Application

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Photofly has cleared up something I was going to.

There are so many disturbing issues in the training one can not keep up with them.

It is almost like this person is learning to fly in some weird dimension from the Art Bell world, is it really possible any school is this bad?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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