Overall it doesn't seem like a very smart idea, for a variety of reasons.
No. turning the fuel off is not a "shut down" windmilling prop is not a "shut down"
The engine might be turning, but it is still "shut down". There is no combustion happening, and you still need to get the fuel flowing again, and then restart the combustion process. Just because it has worked for you in the past doesn't mean it's a good idea. There's a difference between running a tank dry and the engine coughing for a second or two, vs deliberately shutting off fuel for a 30 seconds (or however long you did it for).
I also find it kind of amusing that you're comparing BPF's instantaneous decision to save his life, versus a calculated decision by you to shut down an engine in-flight.
Nice to see the thread has no gone from bravado to thinking. Sure engines are shut down for more reasons than failure but at the end of the day to arbitrarily fail them for fun or to intentionally sh1t can an engine for effect is costly and possibly dangerous. Trainers must be trained especially when it comes to piston engines on how to properly handle even power reductions. The bigger the engine the bigger the issues. Geared flat engines are the worst. They are simply time bombs. I know of a company in the past that was operating cessna 404's and how they always had premature failures and engine changes on the #1 engines. It emerged that this was almost always the engine that during engine out simulations(critical engine) was pulled. They actually stopped doing power cut engine failures training in the 404 and the engine issues all but disappeared. The training pilot would only retard the engine power slightly during training. TC didn't like it but were told it a polite way that they were not paying for the engines and it was SOP.
Now big round engines - same formula bigger the engine the bigger the issue with props driving engines. While I have not flown the biggest I have considerable time behind a R2800. Compared to a R985 the issue is exponentially more critical.
Airborne training is outdated and really does not give pilots(especially at entry level jobs) the proper tools to deal with the unknown and the "startle factor". Simulators are but we are saddled with "it is what it is". In this day an age of computers I'm sure the technology is certainly there to develop a full motion simulator that you could program light twins into and give people "proper" training and actual failures and procedures to their completion with all the right buttons and levers in the required position. Sadly money always trumps safety.
I don't do multi engine training but have shut down and restarted the mighty F404 many times during the course of maintenance test flights. Every time I did so I was in safe flight conditions and close to the base for a quick recovery because I never counted on getting it going again. And that was an extremely reliable jet engine with the other one more than capable of powering the airplane all by itself. I would take the same precautionary attitude in a piston twin multiplied by 10, and I would never actually shut it down if it might cause damage or the manufacturer recommended against it.
For training simulators are a wonderful thing. You can do all kinds of things you wouldn't dream of doing in an actual airplane, and you can do them over and over again until you get good at it.
after 1 engine shut down during a multi training flight do you use the electric fuel pump when firing the starter or do you do a hot start untill it fires ?
Interesting thread capn crunch....
Maybe learn how your engines work, and you wont have any issues re starting them.... Do you even have a me rating? or more than the me rating worth of me flying?
is Bob hoover "not very smart" ? (as you say I am)
FYI Bob Hoover has actually watched me fly.. I took his pointers to heart...
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Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
FYI this is basically how big pistons wound up inverted, luckily for his students sake, he had some altitude under him.
Aviation kills kids.
While your thread may have a purpose Strega you don't inspire confidence or respect repeatedly using it to berate BPF's situation and (instant) choices, correct or not --( I wasn't there, and know nothing of ME recovery)
BPF has told that story himself in detail. Why not leave it there.
Strega wrote:"Concentrate on the accuracy
of the checks rather than the speed at which they are performed"
I disagree with this...time is of the essence when dealing with an engine failure -especially moments after take off.
At the end of the OP video the instructor says this - "There is no emergency, no matter how serious, that cannot be messed up and made worse by going too fast". True words. Big airplanes have crashed because the crew went too fast and reduced power or shut down the good engine. Accurate is better than fast and wrong.
Strega wrote:I was turning off the fuel moments after a take off in the air..
Surely not. Tell me I'm misunderstanding this statement and you didn't really turn off the fuel on one engine moments after takeoff. Do you mean you brought the throttle back to idle?
Strega wrote:
Maybe learn how your engines work, and you wont have any issues re starting them
Who said I had trouble starting engines?
In terms of how engines work: what temperature was your fuel pump, and what temperature does avgas vaporise at, and how does your fuel system handle vapour lock? Was fuel shut-off and restart tested during the certification process? Is there a procedure for in-flight restart in the POH? Bear in mind there will be reduced cooling airflow due to your reduced airspeed, and the fuel is more likely to vaporise when it's sitting in the fuel lines/pump rather than flowing.
FYI this is basically how big pistons wound up inverted, luckily for his students sake, he had some altitude under him.
Aviation kills kids.
While your thread may have a purpose Strega you don't inspire confidence or respect repeatedly using it to berate BPF's situation and (instant) choices, correct or not --( I wasn't there, and know nothing of ME recovery)
BPF has told that story himself in detail. Why not leave it there.
Duly noted.
---------- ADS -----------
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
Strega wrote:
Maybe learn how your engines work, and you wont have any issues re starting them
Who said I had trouble starting engines?
In terms of how engines work: what temperature was your fuel pump, and what temperature does avgas vaporise at, and how does your fuel system handle vapour lock? Was fuel shut-off and restart tested during the certification process? Is there a procedure for in-flight restart in the POH? Bear in mind there will be reduced cooling airflow due to your reduced airspeed, and the fuel is more likely to vaporise when it's sitting in the fuel lines/pump rather than flowing.
This was not directed at you, but rather pilots in general. Find me an accident of a small piston twin that was caused by vapor lock of avgas in flight.
Thx
---------- ADS -----------
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
Strega wrote:
I was turning off the fuel moments after a take off in the air..
Surely not. Tell me I'm misunderstanding this statement and you didn't really turn off the fuel on one engine moments after takeoff. Do you mean you brought the throttle back to idle?
What I do is climb to 5000 agl and slow down to Vr, and then simulate a TO with Gear and Flaps down, Once positive rate is achieved again (throttles wide open but only making about 60% power at the altitude around here) I cut the fuel. You want to see someone scramble... if you know what you are doing, its no issue,, if you dont,, you are in bit shit.
This has happened to me (EFATO) and I thank my mentors for teaching me correctly
I would never do this at surface, or shut an engine down when in the middle of no where.. All my shut downs are typically over an airport.
---------- ADS -----------
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
is Bob hoover "not very smart" ? (as you say I am)
Not at all. I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for the man. Having said that his stunt is part of an airshow, sponsored and I assume engines are completely checked before each performance and likely even a motostat done as well. He does it for a living and in warm weather but to subject a commercially operated aircraft to no power, prop driving engine is just plain bad judgement unless it's done as indicated above as a requirement of a test flight. If that's the case I'm sure engines are inspected after the fact.
What I do is climb to 5000 agl and slow down to Vr, and then simulate a TO with Gear and Flaps down, Once positive rate is achieved again (throttles wide open but only making about 60% power at the altitude around here) I cut the fuel. You want to see someone scramble... if you know what you are doing, its no issue,, if you dont,, you are in bit shit.
Pretty ballze move. Why would you do that rather than just reach over and simulate the power loss. I have to wonder if it's more for your ego. Careful you might do that to someone someday and you will end up flat on your back after you land - just sayin'
FYI this is basically how big pistons wound up inverted, luckily for his students sake, he had some altitude under him.
Aviation kills kids.
While your thread may have a purpose Strega you don't inspire confidence or respect repeatedly using it to berate BPF's situation and (instant) choices, correct or not --( I wasn't there, and know nothing of ME recovery)
BPF has told that story himself in detail. Why not leave it there.
Duly noted.
Please note it well. Thanks.
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Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Strega wrote:What I do is climb to 5000 agl and slow down to Vr, and then simulate a TO with Gear and Flaps down, Once positive rate is achieved again (throttles wide open but only making about 60% power at the altitude around here) I cut the fuel. You want to see someone scramble... if you know what you are doing, its no issue,, if you dont,, you are in bit shit.
Strega wrote:What I do is climb to 5000 agl and slow down to Vr, and then simulate a TO with Gear and Flaps down, Once positive rate is achieved again (throttles wide open but only making about 60% power at the altitude around here) I cut the fuel. You want to see someone scramble... if you know what you are doing, its no issue,, if you dont,, you are in bit shit.
I really hope you live to see retirement.
Please explain to me this post? as it appears to be a troll on me.
---------- ADS -----------
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
Do you think it is appropriate for you to be posting in a thread about ME training and failures?
Its appropriate for anyone to post, regardless of experience. Its the purpose of a forum after all, especially in the spirit of an open one. Its funny that some may feel this is not a free forum, but then would limit it for others. In this case, neither CPn crunch nor Rookie have posted anything outlandish or unreasonable within the subject of ME training or failures, and if they have, feel free to debate their points, as opposed to attack their experience.
If you wish a real debate on this, lets start clean, and lets have the entire story about this training session with this pilot. I'd be interested to know if this was a formal session (that is to say for company refresher or similar) or was it private one on one training. What was the level of the pilot you were training, how was the emergency simulation briefed before the flight and what type of aircraft? What was your assessment of the student prior to the flight? Did you have experience with flying with them before? What was the student's experience level?
