Inadvertent VFR into IMC

[pelmet]

From another forum....

Some earlier model Cessna 150 and 172's had an emergency procedure for inadvertent IMC.
"Release the control wheel, reference the turn and bank, with rudder only steering, hold a standard rate turn for one minute and fly out of the conditions"
I've never met an Instructor or Examiner flying those machines that could tell me about this!!!

Is anybody out there familiar with this procedure?

[photofly]

What would you like to know about it?

[SuperchargedRS]

I hope you were trimmed for level flight at the time.

[photofly]

Trimmed for anything except a steep climb should be ok.

[porcsord]

With all the technology out there for training, I'd expect the proper thing to do would be look at your attitude indicator and bank around with reference to your heading and altitude. Flying into cloud isn't rocket science, and if you're so poorly trained that you can't handle that and instead opt for starring at your watch while you let go of the primary controls and dance with the rudder, combined with the fact that you you're clearly flying in weather that you shouldn't be, your DNA deserves to be removed from the gene pool.

Maybe that procedure made sense back in the 60's, but now my little nephew can shoot an approach on a Ipad down to minimums... and he's 10.

[ahramin]

You need 5 hours of instrument time to get your PPL now. I hope no one out there is spending 5 hours practicing something and then can't do it for 1 minute?

Nowadays VFR into IMC is at low level and results in CFIT rather than LOC, the exception being the ones that do it on purpose and end up in a thunderstorm.

[porcsord]

Yup that's exactly what flight schools teach for those 5 hours.... Let go, and let Jesus/Allah take the wheel.

To quote the black box from Egypt Air 990: I rely on God (probably paraphrasing a bit)

[photofly]

Is it an example of progress that an emergency recovery procedure that takes 30 seconds to master is replaced with one that the regulator deems to require 5 hours of training?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[jschnurr]

I remember seeing a similar procedure in the 172M I did my training on. I believe that the emergency procedure in question is for those time that you have a vacuum failure prior to IMC, or your aircraft is not equipped with an attitude indicator.

But, yeah, as a (past) instructor, I was never taught how to teach this emergency maneuver nor did I waste time teaching it to others

[gwagen]

I think you will find this is a hangover from the days when aircraft came standard with very few instruments.

You'll find the same instructions in 1940's aeronca champ poh.

Back then you got an altimeter, compass, a turn coordinator, air speed and that was about it for standard equipment.

If you were really sharp you could watch the altimeter and air speed to know that you weren't pitching up or down but for a VFR pilot with limited instruments, I guess they figured
using only the rudder was the safest way out.

With attitude indicators, mostly electric now as well, plus vsi, turn and bank. No need for this manoeuvre.

[photofly]

I see...

so the addition of better instrumentation means that a simple recovery procedure that works without those extra instruments is a waste of time!??

Ok - no, I don't see. Someone explain that to me.

If you were really sharp you could watch the altimeter and air speed to know that you weren't pitching up or down but for a VFR pilot with limited instrument

I suppose you could be really sharp, or you could have taken a CPL flight test where this is a required exercise.

[gwagen]

I see...

so the addition of better instrumentation means that a simple recovery procedure that works without those extra instruments is a waste of time!??

Ok - no, I don't see. Someone explain that to me.

If you were really sharp you could watch the altimeter and air speed to know that you weren't pitching up or down but for a VFR pilot with limited instrument

I suppose you could be really sharp, or you could have taken a CPL flight test where this is a required exercise.

Technically in most planes as they are equipped today. No it's not necessary and to argue otherwise is to argue for the sake of arguing.

That said my personal feeling towards flying is simplest is best and what you can remember is even better and I'd certainly have no qualms about this being taught as an additional but not sole or primary technique to get out of imc.

I've never taken a cpl flight test so I wouldn't know, I just fly for fun, but I do try my best to be a "professional".

[lhalliday]

When I did my PPL instrument flying I found it so easy that my instructor threw some of the CPL partial panel stuff at me, including timed turns and unusual attitudes. Great fun!

I haven't needed instrument flying for real (yet) except at night. Black above me, black below me, don't know which way is up.

YMMV

...laura

[Shiny Side Up]

I see...

so the addition of better instrumentation means that a simple recovery procedure that works without those extra instruments is a waste of time!??

Ok - no, I don't see. Someone explain that to me.

I'll weigh in on your side and say that you're correct, it is a worthwhile procedure to teach. There's two goals with the exercise, the first is to demonstrate the importance of having the aircraft trimmed so it flies hands off in the first place. If someone has a tendency to trim with pressure on the stick, the first entrance to cloud will be disastrous. The second is how the aircraft can be controlled very well with just one's feet, and how one cannot overcontrol the airplane, generally speaking with their feet. I would say that people who don't see the point of the exercise, have never been disoriented, which can happen to everyone, even the best pilots, usually with a minor lapse in attention. This is easy to simulate with students, through a variety of means. Not only is a tool to get out of cloud, if the entrance is inadvertent, but to also get un-disoriented.

Over the years I've had a few former students thank me for showing them this simple thing, during their PPL, long after they've went on with their flying journeys. One demonstration often suffices. It would be hard to imagine that the instrument time PPL students do is so jam packed with other useful stuff that the few minuted would be considered spurious.

[telex]

If it's ok with you I'll only get in an airplane with somebody who actually flies an airplane and not an iPad?

Maybe that procedure made sense back in the 60's, but now my little nephew can shoot an approach on a Ipad down to minimums... and he's 10.

[pelmet]

What would you like to know about it?

Exactly what these two knowledgeable people told me about it. Thank you Gwagen and Shiny Side Up. Both of your responses demonstrated excellent instructional technique from personal knowledge to passing on the knowledge.

I suppose that this is still a very valid thing for older instrument VFR aircraft.

I think you will find this is a hangover from the days when aircraft came standard with very few instruments.

You'll find the same instructions in 1940's aeronca champ poh.

Back then you got an altimeter, compass, a turn coordinator, air speed and that was about it for standard equipment.

If you were really sharp you could watch the altimeter and air speed to know that you weren't pitching up or down but for a VFR pilot with limited instruments, I guess they figured
using only the rudder was the safest way out.

With attitude indicators, mostly electric now as well, plus vsi, turn and bank. No need for this manoeuvre.

There's two goals with the exercise, the first is to demonstrate the importance of having the aircraft trimmed so it flies hands off in the first place. If someone has a tendency to trim with pressure on the stick, the first entrance to cloud will be disastrous. The second is how the aircraft can be controlled very well with just one's feet, and how one cannot overcontrol the airplane, generally speaking with their feet. I would say that people who don't see the point of the exercise, have never been disoriented, which can happen to everyone, even the best pilots, usually with a minor lapse in attention. This is easy to simulate with students, through a variety of means. Not only is a tool to get out of cloud, if the entrance is inadvertent, but to also get un-disoriented.

Over the years I've had a few former students thank me for showing them this simple thing, during their PPL, long after they've went on with their flying journeys. One demonstration often suffices. It would be hard to imagine that the instrument time PPL students do is so jam packed with other useful stuff that the few minuted would be considered spurious.

[photofly]

Thats funny, because they both contradict each other. Gwagen thinks it's a useless exercise from the distant past and then only for pilots who were not sharp - and, now that we have colour TV and McDonalds worldwide best consigned to the trash can of history.

Meanwhile SSU finds value in it.

Here is "hands off" technique recommended in the Cessna 150 POH for a vacuum failure emergency descent:

[pelmet]

Still, they both gave excellent responses right away with personal opinion included. I found both very useful. Having been checked out in quite a few aircraft in the last few years, I have encountered a wide variety of instructors ranging from excellent to, less so. I appreciate a response like theirs and have enough experience too sort through varying opinions.

Thanks for the 150 info as well.

[Beefitarian]

Maybe that procedure made sense back in the 60's, but now my little nephew can shoot an approach on a Ipad down to minimums... and he's 10.

If it's ok with you I'll only get in an airplane with somebody who actually flies an airplane and not an iPad?

What are ya.... chicken?

Bwak buck buck buck buck.

[CpnCrunch]

While it is certainly very easy to fly on the instruments, there are still accidents where people can't seem to manage to fly on instruments (some of them even instrument rated). . had an interesting comment about two stage amber being more realistic that a hood or foggles. I've noticed myself that wearing foggles you still see the ground through the bottom of the side windows with your peripheral vision, which does give you a certain confidence that you're right-side-up. When you enter cloud for real, you don't get those little glimpses of the ground, so you have to fully put your trust in the AI.