So what do you do if you can't talk to atc, and a 180 turn doesn't get you out of cloud?This trim for XX and the plane will gradually descend, it's a neat little cute trick to show folks, but it's just that, a cutisie trick, the ANSWER is to go to instruments when you know you're going in, on instruments preform the 180, talk to ATC as needed. If this is beyond your skills, go up with a instructor and practice hood work.
Inadvertent VFR into IMC
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Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
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Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
You continue to FLY THE AIRPLANE by your instruments, try to find better weather via weather reporting, failing that hopefully you have some situational awareness, preferably you have a GPS with a large body of water with a know elivation that you can descend over.
However if the weather was so bad that you're in the soup that bad, you've already made so many bad choices on the chain of events, plus the 180 doesn't work, plus you can't get ahold of ATC, plus plus plus, your likelihood of surviving is already near zero.
However if the weather was so bad that you're in the soup that bad, you've already made so many bad choices on the chain of events, plus the 180 doesn't work, plus you can't get ahold of ATC, plus plus plus, your likelihood of surviving is already near zero.
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Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
Try to find better weather via weather reporting?
If you are flying VFR and going into cloud inadvertently, maybe weather reporting has already failed you.
I presume the turn & bank indicator should still be accurate at showing wether or not you are turning 2 degrees per second.
If you are flying VFR and going into cloud inadvertently, maybe weather reporting has already failed you.
I shouldn't have used the word "drop", sorry. I just mean some 50 000 hour possibly bent rental 172s might roll slightly more in one direction than the other during a rudder only induced turn.photofly wrote:You want a wing to drop, you're trying to generate a roll by yawning the aircraft. It won't drop uncontrollably like in a spin entry, as long as your angle of attack is sufficiently smaller than the critical angle of attack. You are taking advantage of the inherent roll damping of an airplane, the same damping which disappears when the wing is stalled and thereby at that time fails to prevent the "wing drop" to which you refer.
I presume the turn & bank indicator should still be accurate at showing wether or not you are turning 2 degrees per second.
Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
That's ok, the instructions don't say which direction to turn; so if your aircraft won't roll left with left rudder, you can go right instead
ps you can't catch me out that easily with your "two degrees per second" lure!
ps you can't catch me out that easily with your "two degrees per second" lure!
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
Well that probably is the case, the manuver merely raises that chance a little bit higher than zero.SuperchargedRS wrote:You continue to FLY THE AIRPLANE by your instruments, try to find better weather via weather reporting, failing that hopefully you have some situational awareness, preferably you have a GPS with a large body of water with a know elivation that you can descend over.
However if the weather was so bad that you're in the soup that bad, you've already made so many bad choices on the chain of events, plus the 180 doesn't work, plus you can't get ahold of ATC, plus plus plus, your likelihood of surviving is already near zero.
Far more common of a scenario however, would be a VFR pilot who's decided to fly somewhere above a scattered layer, which becomes a broken layer, and then an undercast one. Things being what they are, typically they wouldn't be asking for help, or know they're in trouble until its gotten too far. Then they're low on fuel, probably after having trucked around looking for a hole. Now assuming they can get help, or maybe use their gps to get near an airport, they still need to break through the cloud layer. The procedure merely helps them get down without putting the thing into a spiral dive, especially if they haven't ever done any instrument practice since their license. This may be even with atc assistance.
The lesson here isn't really a difficult one. If you get disoriented, or feel you are likely to, take your hands off the stick. Chances are you're the one causing yourself the trouble. Take advantage of the airplane's natural stability.
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Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
Oops that's why you should practice simple maths too.photofly wrote:
ps you can't catch me out that easily with your "two degrees per second" lure!
3 degrees per second.
Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
Supercharged, by hands and feet I mean you need to tell people what to do with them, not just to use them.
Personally, I would advise any non-IFR rated pilot flying a small piston aircraft to avoid touching power and avoid any unnecessary longitudinal yoke inputs to avoid acceleration (and sensory disorientation). Transition to the attitude indicator and set a level attitude the yoke. Crosscheck airspeed and if above 100 kts, do not change power setting. If below 100 kts, make a progressive power correction and trim. (Aviate) Once stable at or above 100 KCAS set a 15 degrees angle of bank using the lateral yoke control using 1/4 deflection. I would try to coordinate, but not at the expense of lateral and longitudinal control (ie: if you are in a level 15 degrees AOB turn, then use rudder to coordinate). Count to 60 and use the lateral yoke control to set wings level. This should be close to 180 degrees from the original heading. (Navigate) Continue straight and level for 2 minutes. If still in cloud, call ATC on 121.5 and request radar vectors and inform them you are not IFR rated. (Communicate)
I would advise against the rudder-only turn as it is not something someone practices a lot. There are a lot more side forces than normal flight, which is unusual for most, that can lead to sensory disorientation.
Personally, I would advise any non-IFR rated pilot flying a small piston aircraft to avoid touching power and avoid any unnecessary longitudinal yoke inputs to avoid acceleration (and sensory disorientation). Transition to the attitude indicator and set a level attitude the yoke. Crosscheck airspeed and if above 100 kts, do not change power setting. If below 100 kts, make a progressive power correction and trim. (Aviate) Once stable at or above 100 KCAS set a 15 degrees angle of bank using the lateral yoke control using 1/4 deflection. I would try to coordinate, but not at the expense of lateral and longitudinal control (ie: if you are in a level 15 degrees AOB turn, then use rudder to coordinate). Count to 60 and use the lateral yoke control to set wings level. This should be close to 180 degrees from the original heading. (Navigate) Continue straight and level for 2 minutes. If still in cloud, call ATC on 121.5 and request radar vectors and inform them you are not IFR rated. (Communicate)
I would advise against the rudder-only turn as it is not something someone practices a lot. There are a lot more side forces than normal flight, which is unusual for most, that can lead to sensory disorientation.
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Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
This makes me think of something.
I wonder if that partially led to the original concept of a rudder only turn? Even once I became comfortable steering with my feet. It remained something conscious. Intentionally not using the yoke may possibly make me very attentive, watching the amount of bank and timing the turn.
Though that would be almost a lucky coincidence. I think Cessna probably engineered the planes to do a nice coordinated standard rate turn only using the rudder.
If I'm sitting and feel like I'm falling over or something. My hands will do more unconscious moves than my feet. Both in terms of "swimming" to fight myself and grabbing for something to hold myself up with.AuxBatOn wrote: I would advise against the rudder-only turn as it is not something someone practices a lot. There are a lot more side forces than normal flight, which is unusual for most, that can lead to sensory disorientation.
I wonder if that partially led to the original concept of a rudder only turn? Even once I became comfortable steering with my feet. It remained something conscious. Intentionally not using the yoke may possibly make me very attentive, watching the amount of bank and timing the turn.
Though that would be almost a lucky coincidence. I think Cessna probably engineered the planes to do a nice coordinated standard rate turn only using the rudder.
Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
It's actually a certification requirement in FAR23 and I guess CAR 3 that an aircraft be manoeuverable with rudder only. I'll look up the reference later, and there's an amusing story about why it's a requirement.
So not only Cessna design their planes to be able to turn with rudder only; all light GA manufacturers must.
There it is: FAR23.147(c) if anyone is interested.
So not only Cessna design their planes to be able to turn with rudder only; all light GA manufacturers must.
There it is: FAR23.147(c) if anyone is interested.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
I've always been curious about this. I'm a VFR pilot with pretty good SA on IFR procedures and fly with the approach plates with me just in case things go bad. Plus their airport/taxi diagrams are way better.Shiny Side Up wrote:
Far more common of a scenario however, would be a VFR pilot who's decided to fly somewhere above a scattered layer, which becomes a broken layer, and then an undercast one.
If I call up ATC and say "Hey, I'm a VFR pilot on a VFR flight plan, I've entered inadvertent IMC and while under control now don't see a way out and don't have enough gas to turn around. I am unable to legally pick up an IFR clearance, however would like to shoot XX approach to yy field, or conduct a descend to your radar vectoring altitude/a MOCA to conduct a cloud break to regain VFR". Would they tell me to F*&k off and report me or help me do what is clearly illegal to get me VFR again? I know ATS is there primarily to be of assistance...but not sure how they would react to that?
My guess is I could always declare an emergency and do whatever I feel is necessary to maintain safety of flight?
Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
The effect would probably be the same: ATC will consider you an emergency, assist you in any way possible and probably file a CADORS/report either way.DSoup wrote: If I call up ATC and say "Hey, I'm a VFR pilot on a VFR flight plan, I've entered inadvertent IMC and while under control now don't see a way out and don't have enough gas to turn around. I am unable to legally pick up an IFR clearance, however would like to shoot XX approach to yy field, or conduct a descend to your radar vectoring altitude/a MOCA to conduct a cloud break to regain VFR". Would they tell me to F*&k off and report me or help me do what is clearly illegal to get me VFR again? I know ATS is there primarily to be of assistance...but not sure how they would react to that?
My guess is I could always declare an emergency and do whatever I feel is necessary to maintain safety of flight?
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
AtC will without a doubt provide whatever assistance you ask for that is within their power to give. If you request clearance to fly an approach, you're the PIC and it's not ATC's role to police you. In an emergency they will clear all the other traffic out of the way and let you do whatever you like for as long as you have fuel to turn the propellor.
if I remember right, the required response from ATC on being informed that a VFR flight is in IMC is to ask if the pilot is rated for and the airplane is equipped for instrument flight. Unless the answer to both questions is yes, it is a mandatory emergency situation, no discretion.
So without a shadow of a doubt they will file a CADORS report detailing the entire incident regardless of how it concludes, and it will be up to Transport Canada (not NavCanada) whether to invite you to a meeting at which biscuits will not be served.
Supposing just a little bit further, the interview might well focus your preflight planning and decision making and whether your confidence with the approach plates beside you led you to make choices inappropriate to someone holding the licences and ratings that you do.
if I remember right, the required response from ATC on being informed that a VFR flight is in IMC is to ask if the pilot is rated for and the airplane is equipped for instrument flight. Unless the answer to both questions is yes, it is a mandatory emergency situation, no discretion.
So without a shadow of a doubt they will file a CADORS report detailing the entire incident regardless of how it concludes, and it will be up to Transport Canada (not NavCanada) whether to invite you to a meeting at which biscuits will not be served.
Supposing just a little bit further, the interview might well focus your preflight planning and decision making and whether your confidence with the approach plates beside you led you to make choices inappropriate to someone holding the licences and ratings that you do.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
Do they actually talk to you in person for some of the more serious cadors ? I was under the impression it was phone calls and paperwork (and court for the really nasty stuff if it leads to that).photofly wrote: invite you to a meeting ...
... interview might well focus ...
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
Have spent the last few hours reading the TC database with all the fines. I was surprised to see some pretty stupid things happen and relatively low fines.
Flying as PIC without a medical $750 fine? Would have thought it'd be higher. Or operating as an AME without a valid license $1000?
In my head I was expecting more like $5-10 000 fines for doing stuff like that given the "public endangerment" aspect. Also noticed that Quebec region seems to have a lot of violations...
Flying as PIC without a medical $750 fine? Would have thought it'd be higher. Or operating as an AME without a valid license $1000?
In my head I was expecting more like $5-10 000 fines for doing stuff like that given the "public endangerment" aspect. Also noticed that Quebec region seems to have a lot of violations...
Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
You can read the enforcement manual if you want - it's on the TC website.digits_ wrote:Do they actually talk to you in person for some of the more serious cadors ? I was under the impression it was phone calls and paperwork (and court for the really nasty stuff if it leads to that).photofly wrote: invite you to a meeting ...
... interview might well focus ...
As far as I know, it's meetings, maybe letters, and then an enforcement decision - warning, fine, suspension, whatever, based on the severity, your level of contrition and whether they think you need to be more or less firmly discouraged from repeating the horrible act. There is no court until you've appealed first to the TATC single member hearing, then the TATC three person panel. After that, if you're still unhappy, you can appeal to the federal court.
The whole introduction of the CARs was in order to make punishment easier. CARs are administrative rules administratively enforced, so it's only TC's opinion of whether you deserve to be punished that counts in the first instance, then balance of-probabilities at the appeal(s). Rules of evidence are so relaxed as to be almost non-existent. Previously under the ANOs infractions were criminal offences - albeit minor ones - and needed to be proved in front of a magistrate judge to a criminal standard of proof, so enforcement action was rare and difficult. Now you're fined or suspended on the say-so of a very minor government functionary, and any appeal is heard by some other very minor functionaries.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
I wasn't quite right about it being an automatic emergency. Here's some excerpts from a very old copy of MANOPS which is a super secret NavCanada document. Clearly they don't want you to know there's a standard cloud break procedure that ATCOs are (or were) trained for.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Inadvertent VFR into IMC
Continued...
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.