Instructors - Demand?

This forum has been developed to discuss flight instruction/University and College programs.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore

Saffer
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:06 am

Instructors - Demand?

Post by Saffer »

Hi all

I have read a number of the threads and many speak about the pro's and cons of instruction.
My question is, is there a demand for instructors in Canada? Asking in terms of a career instructor, not as a stepping stone for hour building.

Regards
---------- ADS -----------
 
marakii
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:59 am

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by marakii »

Saffer wrote:Hi all

I have read a number of the threads and many speak about the pro's and cons of instruction.
My question is, is there a demand for instructors in Canada? Asking in terms of a career instructor, not as a stepping stone for hour building.

Regards
It's how you want to treat your position as a career instructor, I think it's great to be a mentor and inspire but unfortunately you're just an unapreciated number without the respect that you should receive.

It's all about how you handle it, very few career instructors out there but I respect you for focusing on what you want to do.

Good for you !
---------- ADS -----------
 
SuperchargedRS
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:30 am
Location: the stars playground

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by SuperchargedRS »

Depends on who you are and what you do.

Not many folks appreciate the self licking icecream cone of instructors who's last job was being a student.

Now more speciality stuff, taught by someone with real world experience, that's hard to find and there arnt a ton of folks who do it.

Also comes down to if you have chops for business, not likley you're going to make a good instructors career working for a school, gonna have to do your own thing.
---------- ADS -----------
 
marakii
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:59 am

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by marakii »

SuperchargedRS wrote:Depends on who you are and what you do.

Not many folks appreciate the self licking icecream cone of instructors who's last job was being a student.

Now more speciality stuff, taught by someone with real world experience, that's hard to find and there arnt a ton of folks who do it.

Also comes down to if you have chops for business, not likley you're going to make a good instructors career working for a school, gonna have to do your own thing.
Is it very difficult to do my own thing ?
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by photofly »

Transport Canada makes it nearly impossible. As a freelancer you're restricted to teaching people who either a)have bought their own plane or b)have access to a plane (that's not yours) and are training for other than their PPL. If you want to open your own flight school figure on a shelf of paperwork and a couple of years delay, plus all the commercial maintenance requirements. There's a reason that there are very few (if any) mom-and-pop flight schools in existence in Canada any more - TC regulated them out of existence.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
MrWings
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:35 am

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by MrWings »

I think students get frustrated when instructors are unprepared, rude, show little interest and are gone in the blink of an eye.

I think there is always a market for a professional, courteous, proficent, dedicated instructor. Be that type of instructor and you will always have a job. The experience you gain will just add to your skill set.

I have no experience in the instructing world nor the desire. But I always thought working for yourself would be the way to go. Instructors put in so much "free" time that you should see all the revenue. Although setting it up, as mentioned, is a lot of work, I think it would be worth it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
SuperchargedRS
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:30 am
Location: the stars playground

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by SuperchargedRS »

marakii wrote:
SuperchargedRS wrote:Depends on who you are and what you do.

Not many folks appreciate the self licking icecream cone of instructors who's last job was being a student.

Now more speciality stuff, taught by someone with real world experience, that's hard to find and there arnt a ton of folks who do it.

Also comes down to if you have chops for business, not likley you're going to make a good instructors career working for a school, gonna have to do your own thing.
Is it very difficult to do my own thing ?
You tell me, sadly Canada is a socialist country and makes it hard for entrepreneurs to flourish.

You could always convert to a FAA cert and open up shop in the US, I think NAFTA covers flight training??
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by Cat Driver »

I think it's great to be a mentor and inspire but unfortunately you're just an unapreciated number without the respect that you should receive.
Respect is earned by building a reputation as a top notch teacher.

Once you reach that stage you will be appreciated and be able to earn a living wage outside of the flight schools..

Unfortunately in Canada TC has rigged the system where you are forced to work for less than living wages under their tightly controlled FTU-OC system.

It is quite different in the USA where they allow free enterprise.

It is really difficult to get started if you have to live in Canada under a socialistic hammer.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
SuperchargedRS
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:30 am
Location: the stars playground

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by SuperchargedRS »

Cat, brother please, I contacted you about that specialized float training you were boosting about a while ago and you didn't even bother to reply, your buesiness sense wouldn't get you out of a wet paper bag.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by Cat Driver »

Cat, brother please, I contacted you about that specialized float training you were boosting about a while ago and you didn't even bother to reply, your buesiness sense wouldn't get you out of a wet paper bag.


First of all I have been retired since 2005 and have not even kept my license valid for some years now.

I do not recall any messages asking about float training and apologize if you feel I have offended you by not responding.

Maybe the specialized float training I was referring to was Randy Hannah?

As to the wet paper bag comment the only response I have is I managed to retire quite well off from my business sense.

And the fact I don't make these claims from the protection of anonymity should give them some credibility, would you not agree?
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
SuperchargedRS
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:30 am
Location: the stars playground

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by SuperchargedRS »

Cat Driver wrote:
Cat, brother please, I contacted you about that specialized float training you were boosting about a while ago and you didn't even bother to reply, your buesiness sense wouldn't get you out of a wet paper bag.


First of all I have been retired since 2005 and have not even kept my license valid for some years now.

I do not recall any messages asking about float training and apologize if you feel I have offended you by not responding.

Maybe the specialized float training I was referring to was Randy Hannah?

As to the wet paper bag comment the only response I have is I managed to retire quite well off from my business sense.

And the fact I don't make these claims from the protection of anonymity should give them some credibility, would you not agree?
No worries if you didn't get it, I recall you had some advanced float training thing going, maybe it was someone else flying, not sure, but I did ether send you a message or two or responded to your post, didn't get anything back.

As for posting, no I don't, and I'm pretty sure I probably signed the message with my real name and number, as that's kinda my SOP when doing (or trying to) business with someone.

Ether way, if you honestly didn't get it, disregard.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by Shiny Side Up »

There's a reason that there are very few (if any) mom-and-pop flight schools in existence in Canada any more - TC regulated them out of existence.
While pressures from TC certainly hasn't helped, the main forces at work have simply been the free market. New flight schools are incredibly tough to get started if only because stat up costs are obscene. Airplanes are tougher to acquire, insurance costs have skyrocketed, staff is problematic to get, land and lease fees have went up, and most of all: there is no market demand.

The last is especially worth noting. The fact of the matter is that big flight schools at big airports is a big drawing point. People are looking for what they feel is a "professional" program to learn at, and that's both career and private minded people. I'll also say that these are places instructors want to work at - more hours - even if they are people who are in it for the love of instructing. Contract training is also big business and has the advantage of steady influx of business, where as smaller schools are at the mercy of the local economy. Gone also are the days where one can still reasonably acquire aircraft that can be economically operated, I'll add to that that like small schools, maintenance organizations that want to service small fleets are increasingly disappearing. Kids coming out of AME school, don't want to work on Cessnas, even if it does pay well.

I'll even say that having direct experience with starting a flight school, that TC was by far the easiest and most responsive out of the long list of entities I had to deal with. A couple of weeks for the OC to be issued was nothing compared to the idiocy of having to sit through public forums in the local municipality to hear every Tom, Dick and Harry talk about how they were afraid of small airplanes. Small minded politics at its worst.
You tell me, sadly Canada is a socialist country and makes it hard for entrepreneurs to flourish.
Hardly. If anything when it comes to general aviation, a little more socialism would help it flourish. For example, when it comes to small flight schools, its increasingly difficult for students to get funding for flight training at them - the big draw of university programs. As a result, there are becoming less and less Canadian kids looking at aviation as a career and the training market here has shifted almost entirely, except for a few of the big players, to foreign student training. Small airports are also becoming increasingly difficult to operate out of, many of which were government run are now in the hands of private groups and stand to either purposefully be eliminated or mismanaged into bankruptcy. There is certainly a cause for more public funding of places which are necessary parts of local and regional infrastructure. Market pressures right now are really looking to turn every small airport in this country into condos or golf courses with the ultimate result of concentrating flight training into what will be essentially local monopolies, which will in turn increase costs further and decrease quality. This is easy to see already in action if you've been paying attention to what may be going on at your local field.
---------- ADS -----------
 
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1948
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by goingnowherefast »

I've always had the most fun at the smaller FTUs. The big ones have a more professional feel, but it also seems like a business transaction were they just want my money and I just want to gain a signature on my license.

The small flight schools are where I've always had the most fun, flown less common aircraft, treated like a valued customer and pilot. I usually learned more too, even if I didn't acquire any "recognized training".

Unfortunately the Ma' and Pa' shops usually don't offer Multi and/or IFR training, so the commercial students aren't interested.
---------- ADS -----------
 
marakii
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:59 am

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by marakii »

Shiny Side Up wrote:
There's a reason that there are very few (if any) mom-and-pop flight schools in existence in Canada any more - TC regulated them out of existence.
While pressures from TC certainly hasn't helped, the main forces at work have simply been the free market. New flight schools are incredibly tough to get started if only because stat up costs are obscene. Airplanes are tougher to acquire, insurance costs have skyrocketed, staff is problematic to get, land and lease fees have went up, and most of all: there is no market demand.

The last is especially worth noting. The fact of the matter is that big flight schools at big airports is a big drawing point. People are looking for what they feel is a "professional" program to learn at, and that's both career and private minded people. I'll also say that these are places instructors want to work at - more hours - even if they are people who are in it for the love of instructing. Contract training is also big business and has the advantage of steady influx of business, where as smaller schools are at the mercy of the local economy. Gone also are the days where one can still reasonably acquire aircraft that can be economically operated, I'll add to that that like small schools, maintenance organizations that want to service small fleets are increasingly disappearing. Kids coming out of AME school, don't want to work on Cessnas, even if it does pay well.

I'll even say that having direct experience with starting a flight school, that TC was by far the easiest and most responsive out of the long list of entities I had to deal with. A couple of weeks for the OC to be issued was nothing compared to the idiocy of having to sit through public forums in the local municipality to hear every Tom, Dick and Harry talk about how they were afraid of small airplanes. Small minded politics at its worst.
You tell me, sadly Canada is a socialist country and makes it hard for entrepreneurs to flourish.
Hardly. If anything when it comes to general aviation, a little more socialism would help it flourish. For example, when it comes to small flight schools, its increasingly difficult for students to get funding for flight training at them - the big draw of university programs. As a result, there are becoming less and less Canadian kids looking at aviation as a career and the training market here has shifted almost entirely, except for a few of the big players, to foreign student training. Small airports are also becoming increasingly difficult to operate out of, many of which were government run are now in the hands of private groups and stand to either purposefully be eliminated or mismanaged into bankruptcy. There is certainly a cause for more public funding of places which are necessary parts of local and regional infrastructure. Market pressures right now are really looking to turn every small airport in this country into condos or golf courses with the ultimate result of concentrating flight training into what will be essentially local monopolies, which will in turn increase costs further and decrease quality. This is easy to see already in action if you've been paying attention to what may be going on at your local field.

It really is sad to read the above with all due respect if what you say is true, that either starting your own flight school is so difficult to do which really shouldn't be and the whole idea of being a flight instructor you are seen as nothing. Mind you I'm fifty and trying to find an instructing position but my present job is somewhat in the way but I'm still at it because I truly love to teach and trying to put together more instructional training anywhere that I can find it to help me achieve that job.

I've seen probably eighty to ninety percent of instructors looking like they couldn't care less about anyone other than their logbook so they can jump, did they forget who trained them in the beginning? They seem to forget.

Schools today i can't talk about them ten years ago and before that , but they'll hire anyone and pay them as little as possible to push the 'customers' through and away they go.

The whole thing about starting any 702 or 703 service whether it's a flight school, or a simple idea of sightseeing can take you months and alot of posters here say years and how TC is just going to do everything to kill you. Shame.

I notice it's extremely difficult to find a true gifted flight instructor that has the passion to teach.

my apologies for my rant.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by Shiny Side Up »

that either starting your own flight school is so difficult to do which really shouldn't be
Why shouldn't it be? The world don't owe you nothing. FWIW, it isn't any more difficult than any other enterprise, its merely that the market isn't there for a small enterprise anymore. The problem with running a flight school on the small scale that people don't like about it is that its like running a farm - its a living, not a get rich quick scheme. You could easily run a mom and pop style school if you had the right location, but remember that's just o make a decent living, don't have the illusion that you're going to be the next guy on Dragons Den. If you want to make it farther you got to be all about business - in which case the whole passion for flying thing better be back seat to the bottom line. Some schools that have stated small have went this way, they're now big schools. Its about the return for their investors.
I notice it's extremely difficult to find a true gifted flight instructor that has the passion to teach.
That's because for those to exist, you need to have an individual with multiple traits that overlap towards that end. The pool will be very small if one drew the Venn diagram with the necessary overlaps.
---------- ADS -----------
 
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
marakii
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:59 am

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by marakii »

Shiny Side Up wrote:
that either starting your own flight school is so difficult to do which really shouldn't be
Why shouldn't it be? The world don't owe you nothing. FWIW, it isn't any more difficult than any other enterprise, its merely that the market isn't there for a small enterprise anymore. The problem with running a flight school on the small scale that people don't like about it is that its like running a farm - its a living, not a get rich quick scheme. You could easily run a mom and pop style school if you had the right location, but remember that's just o make a decent living, don't have the illusion that you're going to be the next guy on Dragons Den. If you want to make it farther you got to be all about business - in which case the whole passion for flying thing better be back seat to the bottom line. Some schools that have stated small have went this way, they're now big schools. Its about the return for their investors.
I notice it's extremely difficult to find a true gifted flight instructor that has the passion to teach.
That's because for those to exist, you need to have an individual with multiple traits that overlap towards that end. The pool will be very small if one drew the Venn diagram with the necessary overlaps.

Thank you again for the valuable info always appreciated. Why is it always about how much money that we need to make? I don't want to make a million bucks or end up on Dragon's Den who cares. I notice especially on the AC and Jazz and Sky posts that's all they talk about is how much money can I make and what's my best schedule. What happened to the love of flying in general? I'd love if possible to start a small flight school with a couple of planes and offer affordable training and kick in some sightseeing and light charters for the LOVE OF FLYING and helping others achieve their dream of flight. If it's extremely difficult to start by all means I'm not an expert but it would be nice and if not it's not.

Money, what's the saying: the root of all evil, let's see how much money I can make flying a 787!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by Shiny Side Up »

LOVE OF FLYING doesn't pay the bills. I will say that flight schools also can't run on pilot dreams. If you asked most instructors to organize a flight school you'd have a dissimilar fleet of at least a dozen different aircraft, none of which would be able to cover their own maintenance.

Realistically to be successful as an instructor you need to:

a) Be a good stick
b) Be a good teacher and like to do it
c) Have excellent technical knowledge
d) Have good business sense

Remember what I said about that small section of the venn diagram?
Why is it always about how much money that we need to make?
Because its always about that. Its especially going to be about that to your investors if you want to get this flight school thing off the ground. Or maybe not as I've discovered, when people toy with this idea, its always about what they dream will work, rather than what will be solvent. Lots of the classic mistake of buying the airplane, then trying to find work for it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
User avatar
Rookie50
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1819
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:00 am
Location: Clear of the Active.

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by Rookie50 »

2 points, Marakii.

You misquote -- money is not the root of all evil, and besides the Bible has tons to say about wise investments.

In any case any business without a rock solid business foundation will and should fail.

Business is always business, isnt a hobby (those cost money ) and isn't charity. Never to be mixed or confused.

Starting and running one is years and years of 110% commitment and hard work. Without that don't even think of it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
marakii
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:59 am

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by marakii »

Rookie50 wrote:2 points, Marakii.

You misquote -- money is not the root of all evil, and besides the Bible has tons to say about wise investments.

In any case any business without a rock solid business foundation will and should fail.

Business is always business, isnt a hobby (those cost money ) and isn't charity. Never to be mixed or confused.

Starting and running one is years and years of 110% commitment and hard work. Without that don't even think of it.

I agree with all that you and SSU has said, I don't have any intentions on starting a flight school. Just trying to get a feel on why it has to be hard to start one and I know personally running an aviation business is 100% dedication which is something I don't have today.

I like the quote from SSU about learning more on the technical side of aviation, which is something I will look into learning more.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Instructors - Demand?

Post by photofly »

It's hard to start an FTU essentially because TC has a mandate to prevent the public being "harmed" by flight training that doesn't meet the relevant standards, and doing so by zealously making sure that the paperwork surrounding the training is perfect. It's a classic case of measuring what is measurable rather than what is important.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Post Reply

Return to “Flight Training”