Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

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Aviatard
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Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#1 Post by Aviatard » Sat May 20, 2017 7:13 pm

With the recent changes to the Instrument Rating flight test guide, which now require an RNAV approach, this raises issues with IPC renewals in the Redbird sim. Apparently Transport Canada didn't like the Redbird implementation of the Garmin 430/530, such that they did not approve it for use on a flight test or IPC. Previously, not a problem because you could do an ILS and some other non-precision approach. Now that the RNAV approach is required, we will no longer be able to do IPCs in the Redbird.

I've been trying to get some information on exactly what the problem is that caused TC to not approve it for use on an IPC. So far, all I've been able to get out of Transport is to have the implementation conform to the TSO. Not very helpful, or even practical since the TSO covers all kinds of requirements that aren't logical or even feasible in a software implementation. Redbird are willing to work on this, but even they don't seem to know what the problem originally was.

This isn't a huge revenue generator for us, but we do a substantial number of them in a year. I'd rather not have this source of revenue shut off for silly reasons. It seems that TC has recognized that this will need some time to sort out, and will allow IPCs to proceed in the Redbird until 2018. That's not really much time to get a fix in place.

From what I've been able to gather, there are about 25 Redbird users across Canada. If you have some info on what exactly needs to be fixed, or want to join in leaning on TC to be more forthcoming with requirements, please PM me or respond in this thread. Thanks a bunch.
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co-joe
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#2 Post by co-joe » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:06 am

My experience with the Red Bird is that the GNS 530 very closely approximates the Garmin unit by reverse engineering its important functions. I only found 2 shortcomings neither of which have any bearing on using it to shoot waas based LPV and LNAV+V approaches;

You cant turn off the airspace warnings in the Red Bird version. Annoying AF to have to keep pushing the MSG button to see the airspace you've just entered and stop the flashy MSG flag. A nuisance only.

Second from map page 2 you cant hard click the "push crsr" button to get the distance/ bearing etch-a-sketch feature. Most pilots don't even know about this feature.

That's it. Otherwise I found it to be a great simulator of the real unit. Not sure what TC's issue is.
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#3 Post by angry inch » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:43 pm

Any new news regarding the TC/Redbird RNAV issues? I'm looking at doing an IPC in the fall on my own dime...
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#4 Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:03 pm

The current let to allow Redbird FTD's to be used for IPC's expires Jan 1 2018. There is no indication that it will be extended and I personally do not know of any actions by Redbird to deal with the many issues with the Redbird reverse engineered Garmin GPS navigators installed in their sim.
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#5 Post by Aviatard » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:59 am

Latest response from Redbird is they now have a handle on the deficiencies that need to be resolved and expect to have modified software for testing this week. No target date for release yet.

As for doing an IPC this fall, you won't have an issue, as BPF mentioned, the grace period expires January 1 2018.
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#6 Post by praveen4143 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:34 am

I recently did my IFR training and a RedBird was the sim that was used for ground training. I do recall there were a number of bugs on the RedBird pertaining to how it mimics the G430 and the G530. The system would crash if you loaded a flight plan that is more than a few waypoints. There was some more issues relating to the flight planning that I don't recall very clearly now.
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#7 Post by Aviatard » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:49 pm

Update on this:

Spectrum Airways in Burlington (CZBA) now has authority to conduct IPCs on the Redbird. It took a while, but it's done now. I am not aware of any other Redbird installations in Canada that have been approved.
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#8 Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:30 pm

Aviatard wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:49 pm
Update on this:

Spectrum Airways in Burlington (CZBA) now has authority to conduct IPCs on the Redbird. It took a while, but it's done now. I am not aware of any other Redbird installations in Canada that have been approved.
You need to clarify. Everyone has always been able to conduct IPCs on the Redbird. The only restriction was that you couldn't use the GPS because Redbird's emulation of the GNS530W didn't work very well. Now a GPS approach isn't needed for the IPC, so that shouldn't be an issue any more.

Are you saying that Redbird have now fixed the GNS530W so that it actually works properly and TC is happy to let you use it for RNAV approaches?
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#9 Post by Aviatard » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:37 pm

I thought the rest of the thread would have made it clear but since January 1, 2018, IPCs have not been allowed on the Redbird, because of the requirement to do RNAV approaches. This has been a requirement since the tenth edition of the Flight Test Guide TP9939E was issued in February 2017, but an exemption was issued until January 1, 2018. As of that date, IPCs were not allowed on the Redbird.

I'm not sure why you say GPS approaches are not required for the IPC. The Flight Test Guide says RNAV approaches are required.

So to answer your question, yes Redbird has fixed the GNS530 and TC is happy to let Spectrum use it for RNAV approaches on a flight test. As far as I know, there are no other Redbird installations that have this authority.
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#10 Post by photofly » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:42 pm

According to COPA TC is in the process of issuing some kind of exemption to the requirement to fly GPS approaches for an IPC. At least for owner-flown aircraft. Whether the same will apply to flight training devices, I don’t think anyone knows.
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#11 Post by LifeAt90Kts » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:01 pm

Aviatard wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:37 pm
but an exemption was issued until January 1, 2018. As of that date, IPCs were not allowed on the Redbird.
Having a heck of a time finding this in the guide issued Feb 2017, could you send the reference? Thanks!
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#12 Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:09 pm

Here is the info:

https://copanational.org/en/2017/11/30/ ... g-changes/

It doesn't say whether it only applies to aircraft. I expect we'll see a new flight test guide soon which will clarify it. There was another thread here about this a while ago.
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#13 Post by Aviatard » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:23 pm

LifeAt90Kts wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:01 pm
Aviatard wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:37 pm
but an exemption was issued until January 1, 2018. As of that date, IPCs were not allowed on the Redbird.
Having a heck of a time finding this in the guide issued Feb 2017, could you send the reference? Thanks!
The exemption to January 1 2018 isn’t in the flight test guide. It was issued to flight test examiners in March 2017. I don’t have a copy of it.
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Re: Redbird Sim, IPCs and RNAV Approaches

#14 Post by Aviatard » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:26 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:09 pm
Here is the info:

https://copanational.org/en/2017/11/30/ ... g-changes/

It doesn't say whether it only applies to aircraft. I expect we'll see a new flight test guide soon which will clarify it. There was another thread here about this a while ago.
That article only talks about aircraft, not flight training devices.
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