Class 4 instructor hourly rate

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rookiepilot
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote:It takes a "special" kind of person to threaten to blacklist someone that they've never employed, that they've never even met, and in an industry in which they don't even operate!
Learn to read, something longer than a 172 checklist, PF. Might advance your long term career prospects.

I said IF I ran a business in that industry, and IF I had a troublemaker as an employee. Like someone for instance who didn't report damage on an aircraft, for example Gone. Blacklisted.
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photofly
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by photofly »

Are there any industries in which you don't consider yourself an expert?

If I look on weldingcanada.ca - that well known forum for metalworkers and wannabe metalworkers, are you there too, explaining how IF you ran a fabrication shop, what your blacklisting policies would be?

How about zookeeperscanada.ca? Don't clean up the lion poo, and rookie will blacklist you? IF he ran a zoo, of course...?
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rookiepilot
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by rookiepilot »

No, PF.

I've run a business for 20 years. I thought I knew something about how to advise someone starting out in a career. I do believe the principles can be transferred. Anyone who finds no value, need not read it.

I've also spent my share of time around flight schools.

But I'll defer to your wisdom, PF.


Please explain in detail to this poster, presumably just starting out in his career, from your many years of wisdom, experience and top flight success in aviation -- your top career advice.

Think my advice is unbelievably bad? Improve it then. I'd love to hear it.
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photofly
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote: Anyone who finds no value, need not read it.
Too late... precious seconds of my life I'll never get back :(

OK - here's s piece of advice. Remember that when people threaten to blacklist as a means of motivating you to work harder for them it's all about a power trip for them, and nothing to do with you. Don't walk - run - away from such people.
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Last edited by photofly on Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote:
rookiepilot wrote: Anyone who finds no value, need not read it.
Too late... precious seconds of my life I'll never get back :(
What is your detailed career advice, Photofly, to this poster?

Got anything to contribute?
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by Aviatard »

rookiepilot wrote: Think my advice is unbelievably bad? Improve it then. I'd love to hear it.
This posting was a lot better when it said "Sucks to be you, PF"
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by rookiepilot »

Aviatard wrote:
rookiepilot wrote: Think my advice is unbelievably bad? Improve it then. I'd love to hear it.
This posting was a lot better when it said "Sucks to be you, PF"
:mrgreen:
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by Cat Driver »

Here is one of my replies to this subject.
Hi marakii , I have not been associated with ab-initio flight training in Canada since I sold my school in 1991, however if I were operating a school today I would pay significantly more than the other schools.

Paying more does not in and of it's self guarantee an employee will be suitable, but it is a good start because if the employee does not produce it is easier to replace him/ her.
It is easier because by offering very attractive pay you will have more pilots applying.
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by rookiepilot »

rookiepilot wrote:
photofly wrote:
rookiepilot wrote: Anyone who finds no value, need not read it.
Too late... precious seconds of my life I'll never get back :(
What is your detailed career advice, Photofly, to this poster?

Got anything to contribute?
Guess not. What a surprise. Let's try again, let me remind you of the OP's question, (use it like a checklist)

"My concern is I have been employed almost a year and don't have any regular students yet and barely fly."

Sounds like a problem to me.
Now -- this fellow instructor is looking for advice. You're highly experienced, at least that's my perception. What do you have for him, Photofly?
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photofly
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by photofly »

If you want to throw brickbats at me, that's fine, I'm not the slightest bit disturbed. But if you actually want to know what I think, you might want to ask in a more polite manner.

If I was a new flight instructor working at a flight school and not getting any students, I'd discuss it with my CFI, and the flight school owner or manager. There might be a good reason, or at least something simple I could do to improve the situation. If they're a bunch of assholes who can't or won't help I'd go and find somewhere else to work. I don't think I'd turn to a bunch of anonymous people on the internet for advice.

So on that basis, no, I have no advice for the OP.

(BTW there are lots of ads on AvCanada for Class IV flight instructors at the moment.)
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by LifeAt90Kts »

My 2 cents for what it's worth as a fellow class 4.

When I started my flight training, I made a point of visiting airports, and just walking around shaking peoples hands (especially during my CPL time building!). Visiting every fly in pancake breakfast, airplane show and shine, and airport open house I could find. No one in my family flies so I had to build my own network.

Upon completion of my class 4 a few months ago I had 3 job offers within 48 hours which came directly from people I met in the scenarios I detailed above.

I picked the school that not only had a good reputation from the students and instructors there previously, but also promised me enough air cadets to get my 3 solos and flight tests needed to get my class 3 by the end of the summer.

I also have some regular full time students that I cultivated myself, through those same contacts. The school I'm at also fairly distributes the walk in students. I am booked from 8 in the morning to 8 in the evening every day I choose to be.

I am in no way trying to pass judgement on what you've experienced, but I've always found that the harder I work, the luckier I get.

I would suggest making an appearance at every single aviation event you possibly can with a big smile on your face and a firm handshake. If after making your presence known and doing some serious introspection to make sure there's nothing about you or your teaching style that might be turning people off, you still haven't gotten more work... Move. I can tell you first hand there ARE schools that support their instructors and provide a positive work environment.

Best of luck! :)
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by Shiny Side Up »

I've run a business for 20 years.
Have you had to manage employees during any of those? If you have, you'd know that your "blacklisting" policy could run you into a heap of legal trouble. Nevermind the fact threatening it as a matter of "encouraging" good behavior usually has the opposite effect.

Just saying.

On the subject of starting as a class 4, do whatever you can so the students are going to be meeting you and know your face. Volunteer to answer phones, teach ground school. In general hang around the airport.
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by rookiepilot »

LifeAt90Kts wrote:My 2 cents for what it's worth as a fellow class 4.

When I started my flight training, I made a point of visiting airports, and just walking around shaking peoples hands (especially during my CPL time building!). Visiting every fly in pancake breakfast, airplane show and shine, and airport open house I could find. No one in my family flies so I had to build my own network.

Upon completion of my class 4 a few months ago I had 3 job offers within 48 hours which came directly from people I met in the scenarios I detailed above.

I picked the school that not only had a good reputation from the students and instructors there previously, but also promised me enough air cadets to get my 3 solos and flight tests needed to get my class 3 by the end of the summer.

I also have some regular full time students that I cultivated myself, through those same contacts. The school I'm at also fairly distributes the walk in students. I am booked from 8 in the morning to 8 in the evening every day I choose to be.

I am in no way trying to pass judgement on what you've experienced, but I've always found that the harder I work, the luckier I get.

I would suggest making an appearance at every single aviation event you possibly can with a big smile on your face and a firm handshake. If after making your presence known and doing some serious introspection to make sure there's nothing about you or your teaching style that might be turning people off, you still haven't gotten more work... Move. I can tell you first hand there ARE schools that support their instructors and provide a positive work environment.

Best of luck! :)
Excellent. In any industry.
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by rookiepilot »

Shiny Side Up wrote:
I've run a business for 20 years.
Have you had to manage employees during any of those? If you have, you'd know that your "blacklisting" policy could run you into a heap of legal trouble. Nevermind the fact threatening it as a matter of "encouraging" good behavior usually has the opposite effect.
Shiny. I'd had employees, suppliers, contractors, business associates.

I'd suggest reading exactly what I wrote, and not photofly's misquoting of what I wrote.

No where did I write that I ever would threaten an employee to encourage good behaviour or work harder, and I've never done that.

If an employee --in the industry example I quoted -- say returned a known damaged aircraft without fully reporting it, lied or decieved me about it, yes I would blacklist that person. They would never work for me again, and I would tell my all friends in the business, too.

Once trust is broken, it can rarely be restored. Certainly with me, that's how it is. In my world, lying in a non negotiable offense, for one. It's just a principle, and I know many other business owners who feel the same way.

Trying to make a point -- is it's a small community, and the business owners run it, whether in the FTU or 705 industry. They write the paychecks. Pissing them off, gaining a reputation, is not a wise idea for ones career.

A lot of people here seem to have an anti company attitude, at least on the internet. Do the minimum required, bitch incessantly, rail that the company is the enemy. I don't think that is a path to happiness or success, that's all. Make your company, your partner.
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by photofly »

Let's remind ourselves what you said:
rookiepilot wrote: And -- for troublemakers -- I'd blacklist you. And I'd tell all my flight school / 705 friends, too. Harsh? Yep. But that's how it works.
Here's the thing about "blacklists": they're basically a form of self aggrandizement. the person doing the threatening is on a power trip over their employee, making them fear that the employer has hidden influence over them, beyond the confines of their usually abusive employment. It's the equivalent of an abusive spouse threatening to throw acid in your face to scar you forever. They're not a legitimate management tool.

The good news is that people who threaten to blacklist are widely recognized as terrible employers whose word counts for nothing.
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Last edited by photofly on Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by Aviatard »

rookiepilot wrote:
A lot of people here seem to have an anti company attitude, at least on the internet.
I don't think threatening to blacklist people is encouraging a positive company attitude.
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by photofly »

If someone is a douchebag, why would you want to help your competitors by warning them, anyway? It makes no commercial sense. Really - it's just an abusive power trip.
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote:If someone is a douchebag, why would you want to help your competitors by warning them, anyway? It makes no commercial sense. Really - it's just an abusive power trip.
Clearly then you don't get the business community, is a community.

And you're nuts if you call blacklisting someone who lies about the condition of a plane, endangering not only the business but potentially people's lives, "an abusive power trip".

I wouldn't ever threaten. It would just happen.

What are you smoking, you who would permit this behaviour?
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by CpnCrunch »

photofly wrote:If someone is a douchebag, why would you want to help your competitors by warning them, anyway? It makes no commercial sense. Really - it's just an abusive power trip.
I'm not sure how it works in Ontario, but in the rest of the country CFIs and class 1s talk to each other, and they recommend each other. It's not really a cut-throat business at all. And they definitely do talk to each other about the (very occasional) douchebag instructors.

Rookiepilot is right...most business owners warn each other about lying/stealing employees if they hear the douchebag is looking for work at their competitor.

I don't think we're talking about blacklisting someone who doesn't pre-emptively wash all the flight-school planes...
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Re: Class 4 instructor hourly rate

Post by Shiny Side Up »

If an employee --in the industry example I quoted -- say returned a known damaged aircraft without fully reporting it, lied or decieved me about it, yes I would blacklist that person. They would never work for me again, and I would tell my all friends in the business, too.
Your answer here still indicates you haven't had much experience in dismissing employees for the kinds of reasons you state. Or if you have they have been somewhat compliant with with your methods, or the issue has just not come up with them seeking employment in you "blacklist" reach. I'd suggest next time you do have to make such a dismissal, you consult a lawyer about your ideas, it may be enlightening. Yes saying that person would never work for you again is one thing, spreading the word is another. My personal advice to anyone in this sort of situation (dismissing an employee who may have committed some egregious offense) is to remember what Thumper said. Often saying nothing at all is damning enough.
I don't think threatening to blacklist people is encouraging a positive company attitude.
Indeed. To date, its been a threat used by only the worst employers I've had. A few times its been used when I refused to do unsafe work. A few times when I decided to leave an employer with the customary two weeks notice. There's often two sides to any story, and I've done enough hiring and firing to know that. Hiring people is such a chancy game, but ultimately you have to get a feel for how the new employee is going to be yourself, since you can't count on the "blacklists" by guys like Rookie to give you a good picture, or an honest one for that matter.
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