Class 4 instructor hourly rate

[Shiny Side Up]

Rookiepilot is right...most business owners warn each other about lying/stealing employees if they hear the douchebag is looking for work at their competitor.

They're still really careful about it Cpn, I'd say the straight stuff only gets passed on to those where you know its not going to come back at you. And Like I said, saying nothing is often enough.

[CpnCrunch]

They're still really careful about it Cpn, I'd say the straight stuff only gets passed on to those where you know its not going to come back at you. And Like I said, saying nothing is often enough.

Yeah, I don't think we're talking about broadcasting it on avcanada or similar, or phoning up all your buddies and announcing it. I think it's more along the lines of a quiet word with a trusted business colleague if, say, you hear that someone you fired for stealing something is about to be hired by them. (This happened at my wife's company).

I've been screwed over by two freelance instructors over the years, and on occasion I've PMed people here who have mentioned one of these instructors. I just explain what happened to me, and leave it at that. One of them was just a low-time class 3 guy who posted on avcanada and instructed part time, so I should have known better. The other was a high-time guy who worked at a large, well-respected flight school and was actually recommended by another CFI.

[photofly]

I wouldn't ever threaten. It would just happen.

I see. That's why you boast about it on here. Let's read what you wrote again. Sounds like a blunt threat to me:

And -- for troublemakers -- I'd blacklist you. And I'd tell all my flight school / 705 friends, too. Harsh? Yep. But that's how it works.

You'll very quickly find that "troublemaker" is the label that gets attached to people who raise safety concerns, refuse to fly overweight and correctly write aircraft defects in the journey log to the annoyance of management. You're welcome not to employ such people. Well, you would be, if you had anything to do with commercial aviation.

And you're nuts if you call blacklisting someone who lies about the condition of a plane, endangering not only the business but potentially people's lives, "an abusive power trip".

That's a perfect description of some aviation business owners that I know, but not any pilots.

I think I'm going to buy you a copy of MS flightschool simulator so you can indulge your evident aviation management fantasies there in a harmless way.

[rookiepilot]

They're still really careful about it Cpn, I'd say the straight stuff only gets passed on to those where you know its not going to come back at you. And Like I said, saying nothing is often enough.

Yeah, I don't think we're talking about broadcasting it on avcanada or similar, or phoning up all your buddies and announcing it. I think it's more along the lines of a quiet word with a trusted business colleague if, say, you hear that someone you fired for stealing something is about to be hired by them. (This happened at my wife's company).

I've been screwed over by two freelance instructors over the years, and on occasion I've PMed people here who have mentioned one of these instructors. I just explain what happened to me, and leave it at that. One of them was just a low-time class 3 guy who posted on avcanada and instructed part time, so I should have known better. The other was a high-time guy who worked at a large, well-respected flight school and was actually recommended by another CFI.

I think Crunch has a good understanding here, of the context. I also for balance made it clear, in my business I pay very well (mostly contract work, yes) and respect those doing work for me, and because of that people do work well for me. But it's a 2 way street, and I expect integrity.

It's a simple principle I was trying to communicate to instructors, or anyone, starting out. Find a good employer -- Work hard, do far more than is expected, operate with absolute honesty, initiative, integrity, drive, build the trust of others, and the world in time is your oyster, because the majority aren't like that.

Many are more like PF. They see employers as all evil bloodsucking scum, the enemy, and furthermore figure the world owes them a living.

This is simply not the way to get ahead, in my view, in the long run, as a general principle.

Sorry if that offends anyone. I thought straight talk would help the OP more than flowers and false sentiments.

FWIW I think Lifeat90knots ideas and attitude are outstanding. Well done and any decent employer would be thrilled to have you.

[photofly]

So, do you apologize for your threats to blacklist pilots? I guess it's hypothetical since you don't employ any.

Many more are like PF. They see employers as ... evil bloodsucking scum"

There are some, for sure. The important thing is to spot them. Their attitude towards threatening their "troublesome" employees with blacklisting is a fair indicator.

[Shiny Side Up]

Their attitude towards threatening their "troublesome" employees with blacklisting is a fair indicator.

There is a bright side, if not to paint too bleak of a picture to a potential employee in that all the times I've been threatened to be "blacklisted" in this business has been a completely empty threat. All bluster by guys like Rookie who maybe feel that they exert more power in this world than they do.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Their attitude towards threatening their "troublesome" employees with blacklisting is a fair indicator.

There is a bright side, if not to paint too bleak of a picture to a potential employee in that all the times I've been threatened to be "blacklisted" in this business has been a completely empty threat. All bluster by guys like Rookie who maybe feel that they exert more power in this world than they do.

I agree with Shiny. The industry is small enough you quickly get a reputation. That reputation is shaped by many more people than your boss. The one time I was threatened with a blacklisting, the general consensus among people that knew me was that it was good news. Getting a positive recommendation from that individual was the real danger signal as he was pretty much universally despised.

One challenge for prospective new commercial pilots is that all the flying they done has been in the context of have flight training where they are the customer. Some have trouble realizing that when they get their first job that the purpose of the flight has nothing to do with what they want it is all about getting the job done in an efficient and safe manner while keeping the customer happy.

My personal pet peeve with new CPL's ? They treat the airplane like a condom. As soon as they have had their fun they discard it. Want to impress your boss on your first job. Never walk away from a dirty airplane.

[rookiepilot]

No where have I written that I would actually ever threaten a specific employee with anything, nor have I ever done so.

[photofly]

And -- for troublemakers -- I'd blacklist you. And I'd tell all my flight school / 705 friends, too. Harsh? Yep. But that's how it works. It's a small community, from my understanding.

That's you, making the threat right now.

Blacklists work as, er, "motivation", when the employees you're trying to motivate know that's the way you operate. And here you are, advertising yourself as an employer giving career advice, and explaining that's the way you operate. It's wrong in a thread where you're giving career advice to a youngster to promote blacklisting as an acceptable management practice.

I call you out for saying it, and I will continue to do so until you acknowledge the point.

To be honest, I kind of feel it's like everything you know on the subject you read on AvCanada: you've read that some employers behave like that, and now you want other people to think you're badass and powerful like the bosses you heard about on here. You should be more careful in what you write, and not so quick to paint yourself in a box with some very unpleasant people.

[Cat Driver]

Businesses and instructors over time get a reputation of either good or bad by comments made by either employees or students..

[Shiny Side Up]

and drop the communist hatred of every employer out there. That attitude makes me sick.

Please. You're actually making your case worse. You sound like every bad employer or bad manager I've ever had to deal with. PF is wholly correct in calling you out on what should be called out on especially given the audience.

Respect the person who hired you and signs your paycheck.

They get respect until they stop signing my paycheck, and if the cause of that stoppage happens to be issues that they caused, then they deserve the scorn heaped upon them.

Until you've started and run a business with your own capital you have no idea.

Unfortunately for you, some of us do know what we're talking about, even by your standard. If your style of blacklisting is as you said, and has been repeatedly quoted, you're the kind of guy who makes it difficult for the rest of us to hire staff and do business.

[CpnCrunch]

I think Rookie just didn't make it clear exactly what he meant initially, and PF incorrectly assumed that he was talking about blacklisting lazy people. I don't think PF is a CFI or flight school owner either.

[rookiepilot]

I think Rookie just didn't make it clear exactly what he meant initially, and PF incorrectly assumed that he was talking about blacklisting lazy people. I don't think PF is a CFI or flight school owner either.

Yes. For the third time. I would not blacklist lazy people, and never said that. It's really annoying to get misquoted, and I will not respond again to misquotes.

I said -- a lazy mentality is unlikely to gain long term success in any career. As 90knots said, the harder I worked, the more lucky I've become. Couldn't agree more.

My example ...again --- was precisely applicable to willful negligence and a complete lack of integrity, such as lying, stealing, and not reporting a safety issue on an aircraft- ie. damage that employee caused.

Tell me, Shiny, or BPF, that has never, ever happened, with any instructor you've ever heard of.

If you who have claimed to run businesses with your own capital, or even been a CFI, would choose to keep such an employee, and/or recommend them to others, or even not -- in severe cases -- warn others in community, I simply respectfully disagree......

I would think...especially in aviation, there is a Responsibility to advise other schools or 705's, of a dangerous employee. You all love to spout off about dangerous employers on these forums.

It's a sport here. Yet warning a few colleagues privately about a dangerous employee is somehow wrong?

I'm not getting that at all.

Finally, Why don't a few of you, instead of focusing on one small part of what I wrote, offer some quality advice to the OP on furthering his career -- say as life as 90 knots did?

[photofly]

And -- for troublemakers -- I'd blacklist you. And I'd tell all my flight school / 705 friends, too. Harsh? Yep. But that's how it works. It's a small community, from my understanding.

Nope, not buying your half-assed non-retraction. You said you'd blacklist " troublemakers".
I call you out for what you said, yet again.

BTW, Interesting how you say I must be a communist. If you want to talk about blacklisting and "communists", go and look up Joe McCarthy's Committee on Un-American Activities.

[rookiepilot]

[quote="photofly"
I call you out for what you said, yet again
.[/quote]

Then you can talk to yourself, PF.

[CpnCrunch]

Yes. For the third time. I would not blacklist lazy people, and never said that. It's really annoying to get misquoted, and I will not respond again to misquotes.

I didn't say that...read my comment again and you'll see I said you weren't advocating blacklisting lazy people.

This is getting silly.

[rookiepilot]

Yes. For the third time. I would not blacklist lazy people, and never said that. It's really annoying to get misquoted, and I will not respond again to misquotes.

I didn't say that...read my comment again and you'll see I said you weren't advocating blacklisting lazy people.

This is getting silly.

Sorry, Not directed at you. You're the only one it seems understanding the context correctly, actually. Thank you.

[Shiny Side Up]

My example ...again --- was precisely applicable to willful negligence and a complete lack of integrity, such as lying, stealing, and not reporting a safety issue on an aircraft- ie. damage that employee caused.

Tell me, Shiny, or BPF, that has never, ever happened, with any instructor you've ever heard of.

Its happened a few times, and I was the one who had to do the firing. Hence the poignant nature of my replies to the subject. As I said, the best thing you can do as the ex-employer is to specify that you cannot comment on the nature of their departure. I can confirm that yes, they worked here, but I cannot get into the specifics. Note that's a far cry from your

And I'd tell all my flight school / 705 friends, too.

Keep in mind that if any disparaging commentary you make gets to such an ex-employee, no matter how truthful it is they may take issue with it and you could find yourself on the end of a lawsuit. For a variety of reasons. Not to mention the negative effect it would have on your own employees should it be known that they can possibly expect the same treat should you find them troublesome.

You all love to spout off about dangerous employers on these forums.

Its simple math. There are way more workers on the forums than there are employers, and way more up and coming workers. Dangerous pilots get themselves killed. Dangerous bosses get pilots killed. See the difference?

Yet warning a few colleagues privately about a dangerous employee is somehow wrong?

Its simply not as necessary as you think, at least for good workplaces who will have methods to sort such things out before they become a hazard. When bad employees, end up at bad employers... well that's the storm that frequently causes the hazards, and I can tell you "warning" them isn't going to stop the bad employer from hiring the bad employee. Chances are some sort of problem exists which is going to make that train smash happen. I'm surprised as a "business guy" you don't already know that, since its applicable to any business that deals with any significant number of employees - not contractors, which is a somewhat different matter. The point is if you think its necessary, you're just reveling in your perceived power in the situation.

Finally, Why don't a few of you, instead of focusing on one small part of what I wrote,

a) I did.

b) The heinous nature of what you wrote requires a response. If anything the message that your blacklisting method is not acceptable as a management practice will be some of the best advice a new pilot will get on furthering his career. An unintended consequence of the nature of forum discussions, but in the end a positive and useful one.

[rookiepilot]

Shiny,

I've read your comments and disagree.

Dangerous pilots, don't just kill themselves. They kill other innocent victims, like the pilot after them in the aircraft they (hidden) damaged, or passengers. (Remember them?) People on the ground.

What about dangerous AME's? Do you renounce responsibility for warning other organizations about an AME that would knowingly sign off an non- airworthy aircraft? How would you feel if that led to a fatal accident?

Not telling others about (dangerous) behaviour, I strongly disagree with.

I stand by my comments, which are theoretical. I do not run an aviation business. But I believe integrity, is integrity.

[photofly]

We don't teach class IV instructors that good employers blacklist "troublemakers". It's not a tricky or ethically ambiguous concept.