Wheel landing or three point?

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digits_
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by digits_ »

Attempted 3 points in the pitts every time soo far. It eats up quite a bit of runway in 3 point attitude, so I haven't tried a long enough runway yet for wheel landing practice.
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by Cat Driver »

The Pitts needs a HUD so you can see the runway ahead of you, that would make wheel landings easier to do. :smt040
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by AirFrame »

cgzro wrote:Another reason for a 2 point is if you are on a long busy runway and have to taxi down the runway to a turn off. For example last week we were at Trenton with the little Yellow Wings trainers giving cadet rides. Taking 5 minutes to taxi to the taxiway after landing on a 10,000 ft runway is not convenient for all the other traffic so a two pointer and taxi on the mains till just before the taxiway is less of a disturbance to the faster, more runway burning a/c. The following week we were on a 2500ft, uncut longish grass runway so a nice slower 2 point made more sense. Same airplane, different circumstances, different techniques.
At YYJ we ask for a long landing instead, and just fly down 2/3 of the runway before touching down. Much less risk than high-speed taxiing with the tail up.

To the original question, it's highly dependent on the aircraft.

My RV likes the tail-low-wheel-landing method that someone else mentioned. You can easily pin the mains from that position by raising the tail once the mains are on.

If you ever see Delmar Benjamin's Gee Bee racer, look for a scuff on the bottom of the outboard tip of one aileron (I forget if it's right or left). He says that's what happened when he tried to three-point the Gee Bee, after being advised that the Gee Bee is not to be three-pointed. He didn't try it again.
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Hvd2Pilot
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by Hvd2Pilot »

90% of my tailwheel is in a Harvard so I can only really comment on this airplane. Formation landings, stream, are always wheel landing to maintain visual as long as possible. Leader wheels so he doesn't land short, cramming others behind.

I run out of elevator before the 3 point if I don't have a passenger....so I 2.5 it. I've tried faster, slower, adding a quick burst of power, and speeding the flare rotation...alas I give, I 2.5 them.

Wheel landing, imho, are more difficult than 3-point. If the tail comes down too early, the upwind wing can start flying again which creates havoc. Land on one wheel and stay on that wheel until full deflection into wind and the downwind wing comes down; maintain into wind deflection; keep the tail in the air as long as possible then let it fly itself down by easing the stick back, jam the stick into your gut when the tail wheels makes contact with then ground. Now you are safe, but not done, finish then landing, 2 critical moments: letting the tail down too early changes the angle of attack creating lift; rushing the tail down creates a gyroscopic procession which exceeds full rudder deflection...it WILL f$&@ off in any direction.

3-point is more art than science. Wing into wind as required, rudder to keep the airplane straight down the runway, is flare at the right moment, 2-point the airplane, stick into belly, and slowly apply into wind deflection.

I get more satisfaction 3-pointing, but rarely get the opportunity. I would much rather 3-point than wheel.

Dang, now I want to go flying.
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TG
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by TG »

I'd rather 2 points than 3 given the choice.
It seems that I would be in a world of hurt (slow speed/hight attitude) slightly misjudging a flare in a 3 points versus 2.
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Schooner69A
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by Schooner69A »

Further to what Hvd2Pilot noted: I trained on the Harvard (Mk 2 and Mk 4) in the last century and all landings were 3-point. Not that 150 hours on type makes me an expert, but if 19-year old kids can consistently 3-point that beast in prairie winds... (;>0)
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by ZBBYLW »

Every situation is different. I like to be proficient in both and use what fits the situation better.

In strong (15-20kt+ gusty x winds in a light tail dragged) I almost always wheel landed, on short fields with no real obstacles I almost always 3 pointed, short field with an obstacle I'd always clear it and land with minimal flare which unless I was carrying to much speed would be a 3 or as I was already on the slow speed side of the drag curve (only in calmish winds). When there is no special situation I normally prefer a wheel landing as you can have more satisfaction putting it on one wheel then the otger.

As an instructor I'd normally have my students land on one wheel as asked, then put it on both, then the other and maybe drive it down on one for a while so they could get comfortable with everything. Almost always in a 2 pt attitude as there was always enough speed to use the rudder.
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by Cat Driver »

And therein lies the advantage of the wheel landing, you have more speed for control effectiveness ( control authority for the new agers. )
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by crazyaviator »

Sometimes, a 3 pointer is like rolling the dice, you may make a perfect one or not, but when conditions permit, a 2 pointer always looks good and you can ease the little back end munchkin down at will!
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by youhavecontrol »

I can't say I have a lot of experience in a tailwheel at all. I did about 35 hours or so in a Citabria during my flight training. I remember we were encouraged to do 3 point landings in the Citabria, mainly to avoid the potential risk of porpoising. It's so easy to 'pin the tail' when it's already down. I remember doing a few tailwheel landings for 'demonstration/practice' with my instructor, but being told that there were few occasions where the wheel landing was beneficial in the Citabria. Our solo max crosswind in the Citabria was 10kts for solo flights authorizations.

Well, one day I took off for a cross-country and on the way back home I had to unexpectedly land in about 17kts of crosswind, which at my level was 7kts out of my limits, and 2kts over the max demonstrated, if I recall correctly. I most definitely did my first wheel landing solo and it was most excellent. In retrospect, I should have diverted to one of the nearby fields more suitable to the wind conditions, but Post-PPL Me had a bit too much confidence.

A type, time and place for each technique.
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by Cat Driver »

I remember we were encouraged to do 3 point landings in the Citabria, mainly to avoid the potential risk of porpoising.
How do these idiots get to instruct?
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by lownslow »

My very high time aerobatic instructor who I did my tailwheel checkout with once said, "If you're worried about control or visibility remember every landing is on three points eventually." As such, I have very little experience with wheel landings and it has never really made a difference to me.
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by Cat Driver »

This subject is really quite simple.

If you were not trained to be equally proficient in both Wheel landings and in three point landings you are not properly trained to safely fly tail wheel airplanes.
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by NunavutPA-12 »

What's the preference when on skis?
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by Cat Driver »

What's the preference when on skis?
Once again it depends on the conditions at the time.

Landing on skis does sometimes have the problem of difficulty in judging your height because of whiteout conditions much like glassy water.

However if there is a strong cross wind the surface will usually be easy to see and the wheel landing would be my preference.

Austin Airways put the DC3's on wheel skis in the winter, they gave one a real wide choice of where to land and how much ski to use.
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by youhavecontrol »

Cat Driver wrote: How do these idiots get to instruct?
Well, for starters he has over 20,000 hours in small aircraft from the Beaver, to the Twin Otter, and even amphib Caravans, and served for around 20 years in Indonesia and Eastern Asia as a humanitarian bush pilot. Also he's been an instructor for about 8 years and does technical evaluations for mission pilots. So yeah... I trust his judgement when he said to me that three point landings, in a Citabria, which I was flying, usually gave the best outcome. ...and it's not like I said I was NEVER taught wheel landings, I just didn't do them solo because our cross-wind limits were low enough I never felt the need to. I just said 3 points were encouraged...

Don't throw my aviation roll model under a bus please.
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by 5x5 »

youhavecontrol - don't sweat it. After you've been here awhile you'll see there are a number of high-time posters who think that anyone who doesn't agree with them is an idiot, especially if that someone is an instructor. It makes discussion difficult but don't get your hackles up and take what value you can from all the posts.

Continue contributing in a rational and composed manner and enjoy the show.
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by cgzro »

The simple trick to avoiding PIO in a two point landing is simply to put one main down slightly before the other. This ensures that you have a bit more time to check the bounce. Works beautifully in all the tail draggers Ive flown so far. From j3s, Citabrias, Decathlon, Extra, all the Pitts line, Harvard, Moth, FoxMoth, champ, Chipmunk, Finch...

Unfortunately most instructors either dont know this or dont teach it. This now obvious trick transformed tail wheel flying for me especially cross winds and narrow runways and I am extremely grateful to the one instructor who quite simply explained it while all the others did not. While im sure many instructors do know it and do teach it my experience was about 1 out of 20.
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by Cat Driver »

Unfortunately most instructors either don't know this or don't teach it.
Generally they don't know it because their instructors before them did not know it.

Much of the problem is due to not being able to maintain an approach attitude and judging when to flare for a wheel landing.

They are taught to use a nose high attitude and some power and wait for an arrival.

Some instructors here get bent out of shape because of how and what I post, for instance my comments about PIO in a Citabria one of the most benign tail wheel airplanes ever made.

If you can't wheel land a Citabria you should not be teaching on a tail wheel airplane I don't care if the pilot has two million hours, in my opinion of course.
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Re: Wheel landing or three point?

Post by gwagen »

I was taught wheel landings right from the very first landing I made. I expected to be told to do a three point, but nope right into the deep end! I enjoyed it and survived, somehow...
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