Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

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frye189
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Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#1 Post by frye189 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:26 am

Hello, guys!

So at that moment, I don't exactly know where to go. I have an opportunity to study in Europe and fly after training on A320. It will cost nearly 85K euros (ATPL integrated and TR). However, I'm thinking all the time about Canada. I'm not Canadian currently that's why I worry. What do you think about that? I 100% understand that in Canada as well as in the US you have to build 1500 hours to join a regional airline and get a job on a turboprop. Q400 isn't really bad, I'd say great aeroplane. And yup lots of dreams about WJ Encore and joining mainline. Because it's gonna be in 2018-2020 when WJ and AC will make their fleet bigger and route map larger maybe Canada right now actually a great choice? I know that it sounds like stupid because it more looks like choosing between big jet or turboprop and it depends on me what I really want, fly as a captain after 5-8 years on A320 or get an experience in regional aviation. I'd say the greatest thing in Canada, I can fly on the North or somewhere in Nova Scotia which is awesome, rather boring flights in Europe.

I'll appreciate to everyone!
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#2 Post by PreparBetterThnXpln » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:58 am

Well if you have 85k in euros to spend I would say try the Canadian route as you'll gain much more experience and work your way up to the larger aircraft. There seems to be allot of concern right now about people going straight to large jets without more than 1000 total time experience.
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#3 Post by atphat » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:38 am

PreparBetterThnXpln wrote:Well if you have 85k in euros to spend I would say try the Canadian route as you'll gain much more experience and work your way up to the larger aircraft. There seems to be allot of concern right now about people going straight to large jets without more than 1000 total time experience.
Concern from who? Jealous Canadians?
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#4 Post by PreparBetterThnXpln » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:42 pm

Concern from anyone who knows the experience and knowledge that is lost by jumping straight into a jet instead of working their way up.
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#5 Post by frye189 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:56 am

PreparBetterThnXpln wrote:Well if you have 85k in euros to spend I would say try the Canadian route as you'll gain much more experience and work your way up to the larger aircraft. There seems to be allot of concern right now about people going straight to large jets without more than 1000 total time experience.
Thank you very much! As less money I spend as better it'd be. At least I'm not from the Middle East! :D I think training in Canada in the not expensive province costs nearly 50-60K CAD, doesn't it? I'm looking for other answers!
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#6 Post by TG » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:02 am

Hi,

You seems to have a pretty glamorous views of Canada.
As you know, you will need a work permit or an immigration status. Without that, nothing will happen beyond obtaining your licence (even for that you need some kind of a student visa)

You talk about having to get 1500hrs before being able to reach “The” Q400 like if it was nothing to accomplish or the only turboprop type to fly. Believe me, it is not on both counts.
And 1500 is more a FAA requirement.
In Canada it will depend on offer, demand, past experience, etc... There is some kind of a natural selection. The one about simply having deep pockets (or debts) to make it did not reach our shores..... yet.
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#7 Post by skybluetrek » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:47 am

Where do you have the right to work? Europe? The best route depends pretty much on that.
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#8 Post by digits_ » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:58 am

If you can work here, Canada is definitely much better to get into aviation.
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#9 Post by HansDietrich » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:23 am

Another kid that plays too much Flight Simulator... I don't even know why I'm answering this.

Son, you should aim for the Emirates Cadet Program. They'll hire you as a direct entry F/O on the A380. Why bother with shitty Q400s and A320s?... They pay well and give you a hat!
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#10 Post by frye189 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:37 am

HansDietrich wrote:Another kid that plays too much Flight Simulator... I don't even know why I'm answering this.

Son, you should aim for the Emirates Cadet Program. They'll hire you as a direct entry F/O on the A380. Why bother with shitty Q400s and A320s?... They pay well and give you a hat!
Thanks a lot for your answers! I respect all the opinions! I'm talking about dreams because I just want to be honest with you. I know that world doesn't work like this or even vice versa. And perhaps I created a topic here for take off my pink sunglasses from my mind!

You know Yellowknife isn't a really big problem or even somewhere in Nunavut on something like Cessna Caravan or even DC-3(sorry if I wrote something bad, any type). I won't be ashamed. I know how -40C or even -50 looks like, that's why Canada. Nobody isn't talking about Vancouver or Toronto with 300K/year.

So in Europe, I have an opportunity to join some kind of holiday company, documents will be alright. But don't think something special about it. I respect Canada and Canadian aviation!

One more time, thanks for your time and your opinion! I appreciate it!
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#11 Post by HansDietrich » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:01 pm

frye189 wrote:You know Yellowknife isn't a really big problem or even somewhere in Nunavut on something like Cessna Caravan or even DC-3(sorry if I wrote something bad, any type). I won't be ashamed. I know how -40C or even -50 looks like, that's why Canada. Nobody ain't talking about Vancouver or Toronto with 300K/year.
Okay, the problem I had with your post and the reason I was very sarcastic and dismissive is that it seems that you have a very distorted image of Canada and Canadian aviation. Just so you know: You do not need 1500 hrs "to join a regional airline on the Q400". There are kids, straight out of flight colleges, that are hired by regional carriers, though it's not that common. The majority of new hires have some prior experience.

So I have a few questions for you:
1. Where are you from? What type of training / flying opportunities do you have in your own country?
2. Why do you want to come to Canada? Do you want to fly here until you get your hours "up" and then go back to your homeland, or do you want to move here permanently?
3. What flight experience do you have? Have you started training yet? What makes you think this is the job for you and that you're cut out to be a pilot?

Your attitude is very condescending. You're speaking as if you have thousands of hours flying heavy jets and you're just "not sure where to go". A lot of us, Canadian pilots or immigrants to Canada (such as myself), worked and keep working very hard to get to fly an A320. Canada is not like Europe, where every moron with 85K and bit of skill can buy a type rating and fly for Ryanair, Easyjet or god knows what low cost piece of crap they can find.

If you come to Canada and assuming you have the resources and capability to get your licenses, you will start at the bottom, most likely a ramp job somewhere, proving yourself to an employer, that you're worth of a right seat on a Navajo or King Air. Only then will you start building hours. If I were you I wouldn't even dare dream of a Q400 or A320 job in Canada. That's something WAY down the road.

My honest advice is: Stay in Europe if you're from there. If not, stay where you are and get on that A320. You won't fly one here for many many many years... if even at all.
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#12 Post by frye189 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:21 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
frye189 wrote:You know Yellowknife isn't a really big problem or even somewhere in Nunavut on something like Cessna Caravan or even DC-3(sorry if I wrote something bad, any type). I won't be ashamed. I know how -40C or even -50 looks like, that's why Canada. Nobody ain't talking about Vancouver or Toronto with 300K/year.
My honest advice is: Stay in Europe if you're from there. If not, stay where you are and get on that A320. You won't fly one here for many many many years... if even at all.
So I'm not the EU citizen but I live in Europe. And what I can say to you that as everybody who wanted to become pilots and at that moment they are, that's childhood dream or you can say baby dream. Surely, I didn't exactly understand Canadian system and how everything works in Canada and I don't even understand right now because I'm not there actually. Sorry if I sad something wrong about money and everything, it's just misunderstanding. Because of many points, I can't be a pilot in my country. Let's just stop at that point. So the answer to your questions - I respect everything that you have but I gonna decline your advice about staying somewhere out of Canada.

You sound like big patriot maybe actually you are or maybe you're so much angry at European pilots. I don't know. But everything that I can say to you that sky is big enough for everybody.

And yes, I respect your opinion!
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#13 Post by HansDietrich » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:32 pm

Well, dream away...

As far as actual advice is concerned, if you do come here to study, you'll need:

1. Student visas
2. Tuition & Flight training money
3. Cost of living money (rent, food, phone, transportation, spending money, etc)
4. Health Insurance

Also:
5. Be humble and friendly
6. Make friends in aviation (connections will get you that first job)
7. Work hard
8. Don't ever be afraid to do work that you may consider "beneath you"
9. Dress warm
10. ________ I'm sure I may have missed something important. Someone else can fill in
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#14 Post by frye189 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:38 pm

HansDietrich wrote:Well, dream away...

As far as actual advice is concerned, if you do come here to study, you'll need:...
Thank you! I think everything will be great! Thank you for your Canadian politeness!
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#15 Post by skybluetrek » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:15 pm

Your attitude is very condescending. You're speaking as if you have thousands of hours flying heavy jets and you're just "not sure where to go". A lot of us, Canadian pilots or immigrants to Canada (such as myself), worked and keep working very hard to get to fly an A320. Canada is not like Europe, where every moron with 85K and bit of skill can buy a type rating and fly for Ryanair, Easyjet or god knows what low cost piece of crap they can find.
Ouch! Zee German is out! I wonder what airlines have you choosen to fly when visiting the old continent... :P I can picture you getting off the plane after one of those 1 Euro bargains and snapping at the F/O standing outside the cockpit... ''You worthless piece of scheisse! How dare you seating behind the controls of this exceedingly superb Scarebus a320!'' :lol:

Yeah the kid's clueless, but I belive he's far away from being ''very condescending'' and ''speaking as if he had thousands of hours flying heavy jets'' He started by asking where to do his training.
Anyway, frye189, you might get better advice if you say where you're from, sometimes there're better oportunities for nationals of certain countries or regions.
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#16 Post by frye189 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:03 pm

skybluetrek wrote:
Your attitude is very condescending. You're speaking as if you have thousands of hours flying heavy jets and you're just "not sure where to go". A lot of us, Canadian pilots or immigrants to Canada (such as myself), worked and keep working very hard to get to fly an A320. Canada is not like Europe, where every moron with 85K and bit of skill can buy a type rating and fly for Ryanair, Easyjet or god knows what low cost piece of crap they can find.
Ouch! Zee German is out! I wonder what airlines have you choosen to fly when visiting the old continent... :P I can picture you getting off the plane after one of those 1 Euro bargains and snapping at the F/O standing outside the cockpit... ''You worthless piece of scheisse! How dare you seating behind the controls of this exceedingly superb Scarebus a320!'' :lol:

Yeah the kid's clueless, but I belive he's far away from being ''very condescending'' and ''speaking as if he had thousands of hours flying heavy jets'' He started by asking where to do his training.
Anyway, frye189, you might get better advice if you say where you're from, sometimes there're better oportunities for nationals of certain countries or regions.
Let me say it's one of Eastern Slavonic countries.
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#17 Post by TG » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:14 am

If your country of citizenship is not part of the European Union, you will run into the same issue about work permits. Unless you were initially talking (in your first post) about a local carrier in your area.
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#18 Post by jg24 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:38 am

Off topic, sorry...
TG wrote:Hi,


In Canada it will depend on offer, demand, past experience, etc... There is some kind of a natural selection. The one about simply having deep pockets (or debts) to make it did not reach our shores..... yet.
A lot of people are blinded or trying to hide from the fact that YES, Canada is following the footsteps of the European 'trend'. Many big regionals are now hiring fresh college graduates with ink still wet in their booklet to right seat on their Dash 8 or RJ. The days of ramp - flight line are still there, but compared to 10 years ago, we would have never seen a 200-250 hr flight college graduate jump straight onto a regional
HansDietrich wrote:
frye189 wrote:You know Yellowknife isn't a really big problem or even somewhere in Nunavut on something like Cessna Caravan or even DC-3(sorry if I wrote something bad, any type). I won't be ashamed. I know how -40C or even -50 looks like, that's why Canada. Nobody ain't talking about Vancouver or Toronto with 300K/year.
Okay, the problem I had with your post and the reason I was very sarcastic and dismissive is that it seems that you have a very distorted image of Canada and Canadian aviation. Just so you know: You do not need 1500 hrs "to join a regional airline on the Q400". There are kids, straight out of flight colleges, that are hired by regional carriers, though it's not that common. The majority of new hires have some prior experience.
I'd say it IS becoming more and more common now. For example, some of the last Jazz ground schools, there were quite a handful in each GS that were fresh college graduates having flown nothing outside a cessna and light twin. If not, they're at least skipping the 703 stage, instructors going straight to regionals. A lot of people still believe that this is not happening, or will never happen here in Canada, but I'm afraid to say (or don't really care to) that it in fact IS happening in full force, whether we like it or not.

Things are moving really fast nowadays, buckle in!
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#19 Post by frye189 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:30 am

jg24 wrote:Off topic, sorry...

I'd say it IS becoming more and more common now. For example, some of the last Jazz ground schools, there were quite a handful in each GS that were fresh college graduates having flown nothing outside a cessna and light twin. If not, they're at least skipping the 703 stage, instructors going straight to regionals. A lot of people still believe that this is not happening, or will never happen here in Canada, but I'm afraid to say (or don't really care to) that it in fact IS happening in full force, whether we like it or not.

Things are moving really fast nowadays, buckle in!
I wouldn't say that it's off topic. Thanks for the information!
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#20 Post by TG » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:16 am

jg24 wrote:Off topic, sorry...
TG wrote:Hi,


In Canada it will depend on offer, demand, past experience, etc... There is some kind of a natural selection. The one about simply having deep pockets (or debts) to make it did not reach our shores..... yet.
A lot of people are blinded or trying to hide from the fact that YES, Canada is following the footsteps of the European 'trend'. Many big regionals are now hiring fresh college graduates with ink still wet in their booklet to right seat on their Dash 8 or RJ. The days of ramp - flight line are still there, but compared to 10 years ago, we would have never seen a 200-250 hr flight college graduate jump straight onto a regional
On a side note, I'm interested to see how hiring straight from flying school will pan out in Canada.
For example the ATPL's theory over there is quite extensive. Nothing to compare with here.
I guess that's their way to "Compensate" for the lack of flying experience you can get before reaching the Airlines as they don't have much of a small and medium aviation like we do in here.


It's the other way around in North America. Not much theory but a lot of practice.
So when you don't have much practice and theory..
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#21 Post by Beefitarian » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:05 am

You should come here soon. "My car won't start because I forgot to plug it in. I tore some skin off my hand touching bare metal without a glove and my balls are sucked deep into my abdomen." Season is just getting started.

Some call it winter but I like to be more precise.

Canada is the best place in the world! Make sure you buy a touque!
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#22 Post by jg24 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:20 pm

Beefitarian wrote:You should come here soon. "My car won't start because I forgot to plug it in. I tore some skin off my hand touching bare metal without a glove and my balls are sucked deep into my abdomen." Season is just getting started.

Some call it winter but I like to be more precise.

Canada is the best place in the world! Make sure you buy a touque!
:lol:

Don't forget: "Don't worry, no one will see you cry because your tears will freeze instantly"
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#23 Post by frye189 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:49 am

TG wrote:
On a side note, I'm interested to see how hiring straight from flying school will pan out in Canada.
For example the ATPL's theory over there is quite extensive. Nothing to compare with here.
I guess that's their way to "Compensate" for the lack of flying experience you can get before reaching the Airlines as they don't have much of a small and medium aviation like we do in here.


It's the other way around in North America. Not much theory but a lot of practice.
So when you don't have much practice and theory..
Thanks guys for your positive replies! Hopefully, everything will happen well!

I understood your point, TG. So EASA theory or 703... Food for thought.

So after training(12 months maybe a little bit more), I gonna apply for post-graduate work permit and later for Express entry as Canadian experienced class(maybe it'll be instructor job, or working on the ramp). Any thoughts?
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#24 Post by HansDietrich » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:06 am

skybluetrek wrote:Ouch! Zee German is out! I wonder what airlines have you choosen to fly when visiting the old continent... :P I can picture you getting off the plane after one of those 1 Euro bargains and snapping at the F/O standing outside the cockpit... ''You worthless piece of scheisse! How dare you seating behind the controls of this exceedingly superb Scarebus a320!'' :lol:

Yeah the kid's clueless, but I belive he's far away from being ''very condescending'' and ''speaking as if he had thousands of hours flying heavy jets'' He started by asking where to do his training.
Anyway, frye189, you might get better advice if you say where you're from, sometimes there're better oportunities for nationals of certain countries or regions.
Thanks for that reply. It made me chuckle a bit.

Before I was employed by an airline, and had to pay full fare, I only flew a "low cost" carrier once: Air Transat from Vancouver to Munich (via Calgary). I always flew Air Canada / Lufthansa / SAS. You will never see me fly Ryanair, Germanwings, Easyjet or any other low cost European carrier. It's a principle that I intend to uphold with pure fanaticism; worse than vegans that do yoga! I rather not go on a trip if I have to fly a low cost carrier. I truly believe the "cheapo-air" business model ruined aviation as it should be, and allowed every low life scumbag and Chav to fly to Spain for less money than it costs for a pint, at his local pub, in his subsidized welfare neighborhood.

So, getting back on topic. The kid is probably better off in his own country, because he'll have more opportunities there, not to mention the fact that he'll understand the culture better. I had a hell of a time fitting in here and I've seen a lot the world before moving to Canada. I'm not sure where he's from. If I did, I could give him better advice.
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Re: Where to go? To Europe or to Canada

#25 Post by frye189 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:16 am

HansDietrich wrote:
So, getting back on topic. The kid is probably better off in his own country, because he'll have more opportunities there, not to mention the fact that he'll understand the culture better. I had a hell of a time fitting in here and I've seen a lot the world before moving to Canada. I'm not sure where he's from. If I did, I could give him better advice.
I would say that low-cost airlines are the future of aviation. Just look at them. Anyway, you better know it. I didn't know that you're from Germany.

I said about East Slavonic countries, if you really care about it(thanks), Russia.
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