Providing advanced/type training

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PilotDAR
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Providing advanced/type training

#1 Post by PilotDAR » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:50 pm

I am not an instructor. As such, when I mentor, I fly with other pilots who are already within the privileges of their license for what we're flying. That said, those "newer" pilots may still be out of their element, and often, the insurer requires them to have type familiarization training. An example of this has been various amphibian training I have provided over the decades.

Here comes the one exception; when I train water flying, as a CPL I'm allowed to recommend my charge for a sea rating. A learned colleague tells me that when I fly in this capacity, I am in fact an "instructor", and my charge can log "dual" while I must log the PIC for the two pilots part of the flying. And so begins the shortcoming...

I have a lot of experience on many types, and some weird ones at that, but I have never received training as a flying instructor. I can fly fine, but how good a teacher am I? I have little measure of this. The challenge can be that there are fewer real instructors who can provide properly qualified training on some odd types, as those types are hard to get experience in, in the traditional flying school environment.

My mentor and peers have assured me that the training accident I experienced last summer would not have been prevented by my having faster reflexes, it just happens too quickly, once begun. In the mean time, I'm appreciating more the value of instructor training, as it could apply to advanced type training, beyond mainstream "xPL" training.
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#2 Post by Cat Driver » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:00 pm

The subject is subjective. :D

There are many pilots who give training in airplanes who have never held an instructors rating.

Some are gifted at teaching and some are mechanical at teaching and some are just plain hopeless at teaching.

I got an instructors rating early in my career as a stepping stone so to speak for employment and there were times holding the rating came in handy at a few companies I worked for.

However early in my flying career I let the rating lapse because it did not make any financial sense to keep it valid.

Now back to teaching.

All during my flying career I did training in different kinds of flying for companies I was employed with such as agricultural flying ( Seven years ) Fire suppression ( Fifteen years ) and Airdisplay flying ( Eight years )

And of course the usual flight training for sea plane ratings. multi engine ratings and type ratings.

At the end of my career I did a lot of advanced flying skills training because it payed good money and I am a real whore when it comes to money. :)

The longer I taught flying the less I related to what I was taught in the flight instructors rating, partly due to my wife telling me that a lot of the rules of teaching that are so much a part of the T.C. mindset was nonsense.

She was very well qualified as a teacher and had done part of her doctorate in education at Berkley in California so I got to thinking about her advice and agreed with her conclusion and never ever gave the rules of teaching another thought for the rest of my career.

So on the subjective side of this subject for me it worked out just fine and I did very well in the teaching business by referral from customer to customer which included some of the biggest business in the world.

Also getting out of the T.C. mindset allowed me to develop teaching methods that worked like a charm.

Maybe teaching flying is a skill one is just borne with? Some people can play musical instruments without any training and some people can teach flying without any training in the subject????
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#3 Post by ahramin » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:06 pm

I'm in exactly the same boat you are in PilotDAR. I give type checkouts, currency checkouts, IFR instruction, tailwheel instruction, all without having any training as a teacher or flight instructor. Legally, for what I am doing, as a CPL with the requisite qualifications listed in the CARs I am an "instructor" with the same privileges as someone with a flight instructor rating. While I don't think there are many instructors out there as qualified to teach what I teach, I certainly don't feel that I bring the same level of pedagogical skill that even a bare bones class IV flight instructor would bring.

I am much better and the teaching part than I was when I started, and that has been through:

1. Organizing my lessons rather than jumping in the airplane and teaching whatever made sense that day,
2. Doing some self study about instructional methods, and
3. Being critical of my performance and making the most of the experience gained from teaching previous clients.

I have always regretted not getting a flight instructor rating, and I think you are correct that it would not be a waste of time for instructors in our position.
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#4 Post by photofly » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:14 pm

I wouldn’t overestimate the level of pedagogical skills taught to a class IV instructor; it’s just enough to stop a 200 hour 20-year-old sinking like a brick when put in a room with their first student.

Which is not to say that training in training methods is useless or uninteresting, or that the privileges of a Class IV instructor wouldn’t be useful to you. I just think if you’ve done a lot of teaching, and especially if you’ve done a lot of teaching in airplanes, you might find the pedagogical parts of the instructor rating a little bit “noddy”.
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Last edited by photofly on Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#5 Post by telex » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:15 pm

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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#6 Post by Cat Driver » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:22 pm

pedagogical
I should have stayed in school.

But at least I can read so I looked up the meaning of the word and now I am more educated.

Thanks photofly! :mrgreen:
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#7 Post by photofly » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:57 pm

I figure if I once had to go to the trouble of looking it up, everyone else can, too.

You’re welcome :)
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#8 Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:48 pm

PilotDAR wrote:I .



I have a lot of experience on many types, and some weird ones at that, but I have never received training as a flying instructor. I can fly fine, but how good a teacher am I? I have little measure of this. The challenge can be that there are fewer real instructors who can provide properly qualified training on some odd types, as those types are hard to get experience in, in the traditional flying school environment.
Well I can say from personal experience as a student being exposed to the Lake Amphibian, that PilotDAR is a very good instructor

However I was an experienced and current pilot, with float time. The challenge is when a very experienced pilot, without an instructor background is teaching an inexperienced or poorly skilled student.

This challenge has two aspects

1) The instructor mostly operates with unconscious competence, so it can be difficult to describe what they just did when demonstrating a manever because they can do the maneuver without thinking about the individual actions they preformed to make it work

2) They have difficulty identifying and describing faults in the foundation maneuvers

An instructor rating taught by a good instructor, sadly often more the exception than the rule, will make you very good at de-constructing the foundation maneuvers. This allows you to identify where and more importantly why there is a skill deficit.

Personally when I do a type check or recurrent training I pay a lot of attention to how the pilot gets in,starts up , taxis out, does the runup and takes off. This will tell you a lot about the general skill level of your student.

When we are clear of the airport environment, I do a threshold skill test, I ask them to climb 1500 feet at VY, level off establish cruise, fly level for 2 minutes and then descent at 500 feet/min maintaining cruise airspeed to the original altitude and then level off.

If you see the nose hunting up and down as they chase the ASI, the airplane never gets trimmed in cruise so there are constant altitude excursions and the descent is never stabilized, sadly a fairly common occurrence, then what is needed is not a type check it is a refresher in the foundation flying skills. If you don't feel up to it send them to QFI and get them to learn to fly properly

Finally I do think if you are the non instructor rated very experienced pilot then I think 5 hours of instructor training with a good instructor will be of value and make your instructing better and less frustrating
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#9 Post by l_reason » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:14 am

PilotDAR, because you are off your feet for a while why not just do the instructor rating? I'm sure with a little effort you'll find a class 1 that will help you get qualified. You know a guy with an Ercoupe so using your feet shouldn't hold you back. Once you get a class 4 you'll have to work under a class 1 for a while.

Now more then ever the industry needs good experienced instructors, I would like to see some regulatory changes that would allow high time pilots to become flight instructors more easily. TC should understand that a 200 hour CPL needs more class 1 supervision when they start instructing then a ATPL holder will. I think more of the 5000+ hour pilots would be happy to do a little instruction if it wasn't such a pain in the ass to freelance.
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#10 Post by fish4life » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:42 am

I'd imagine many instructors as airlines in Canada teaching type ratings and doing line in doc don't have instructor ratings either, in many cases they are teaching people with just Navajo time how to fly an RJ or Q400 and doing so with a plane full of pax.
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#11 Post by PilotDAR » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:12 am

many instructors as airlines in Canada teaching type ratings and doing line in doc don't have instructor ratings either,
Probably true, however, the training environment at airlines is more regulated, and supported by more guidance material. A well meaning, experienced CPL in an entirely "private" environment is much more on their own, and the outcome of their efforts not measured against any standard.
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#12 Post by airway » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:58 am

PilotDAR

One thing you could start with is some self study on how to be a flight instructor (if you haven't done this already). Then do some training with a Class 1 Instructor.
I think a good start is Transport Canada's Flight Instructor Guide (as telex suggests). Particularly these 2 sections:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... conversion

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... #seaplanes

I was a full time Flight Instructor for 8 years, and I can tell you that the Flight Instructor Guide has generally served me well. There are many different instructional techniques though, some work better than others depending on your student.

I think even Cat Driver would agree that there are at lest a few good points in there. Maybe he has another publication he could suggest.
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#13 Post by airway » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:03 am

This is a better link for the Seaplane Rating

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... nu-188.htm
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#14 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:44 am

I think even Cat Driver would agree that there are at lest a few good points in there. Maybe he has another publication he could suggest.
Of course there a few good points in it.

However for the purpose of this discussion we can assume that by the time a client is ready for training for a type rating they already have been taught how to fly and hold a license.

The Canadain FTU's seem to license a lot of pilots that have not been properly trained in attitudes and movements judging by the way a lot of pilots I flew with operated the airplane.

The most annoying ham handed habits I observed was they had no clue how to taxi properly and their climb profile looked like a roller coaster as they chased the airspeed needle during the climb.

My question is who approves these pilots for the license if they do not understand the basics?

The only answer I can come up with is flight test examiners who do not understand the basics.

Some of the methods I use are first explaining exactly what we are going to do on a given flight and making sure they understand it before moving on to something else.

And I never change my tone of voice when demonstrating a maneuver or verbally asking for a control input or correcting the student when they make a mistake.

Tone of voice is very important in maintaining as little stress in the student as possible.
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#15 Post by airway » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:53 am

I didn't finish my float rating because the Clapped out C180 broke down when I went out for my solo flight. A guy who happened to be out in the water swimming basically pushed me back to the dock. :lol:

Anyway here is what I would generally do if I was training a Private Pilot for the float rating, or just a check out on a different float plane.

1. Before the training starts, get him to read the section on Seaplanes in the Flight Training Manual, and become very familiar with the Pilot Operating Handbook.
http://publications.gc.ca/site/eng/4378 ... ation.html

2. On the first day, do a detailed walk around of the aircraft. Including the interior, the instruments and controls. It may take a hour or 2. I have found that it is better to do the walk around first before doing any briefing, then the student can visualize what you are talking about in the briefing better.

3. Go to a quiet place and do a detailed brief of the training schedule, the POH, and the exercises you are going to do on the first flight. If you are doing something different than what is described in the POH, explain why. You must follow the Limitations section though.

4. During the training flights, demonstrate the more difficult maneuvers if you have dual controls. You might have to break them down into steps. You may have to refresh them on some basic flying skills.

5. After the training flights, give a good debrief, and assign some reading for the next flight.
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Re: Providing advanced/type training

#16 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:47 pm

:smt023 :smt023 :smt023
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