Exce$$ive ground briefings

[JohnnyHotRocks]

20+ years ago when I was an instructor, if a student came prepared for his lesson and made a real effort to study up on the theory and procedures, his ground briefing would be quite short and consequently I would only charge something minimal (.2 or something to that effect).
Have things changed in the FTU world or are instructors still doing this?
I have a friend who has started working on his private who studies for each flight diligently but gets charged an hour of ground brief for every hour in the air. 20 years ago this was known as “milking a student”. Is this the new standard?
I am not pointing fingers or trying to troll anyone, I am just trying to honestly figure out if this is the new normal or should he switch instructors.
Thanks
John

[lownslow]

Could be a sign of a weak instructor, an unprepared student, or a greedy school.

[digits_]

20+ years ago when I was an instructor, if a student came prepared for his lesson and made a real effort to study up on the theory and procedures, his ground briefing would be quite short and consequently I would only charge something minimal (.2 or something to that effect).
Have things changed in the FTU world or are instructors still doing this?
I have a friend who has started working on his private who studies for each flight diligently but gets charged an hour of ground brief for every hour in the air. 20 years ago this was known as “milking a student”. Is this the new standard?
I am not pointing fingers or trying to troll anyone, I am just trying to honestly figure out if this is the new normal or should he switch instructors.
Thanks
John

Maybe the first 5 lessons if the student is either weak (doesn't get it) or extremely curious (keeps asking a lot of questions), after that it shouldn't happen anymore and something fishy might be going on.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Student is not weak and knows the flight training manual. He just got perfect on the PSTAR. The lesson is straight and level flight. An hour sounds excessive to me.

[digits_]

Student is not weak and knows the flight training manual. He just got perfect on the PSTAR. The lesson is straight and level flight. An hour sounds excessive to me.

Is it an hour spent in the class room, or an hour from entering the room till firing up the airplane?

[JohnnyHotRocks]

An hour spent talking about the lesson on the ground before the flight was cancelled due to wx

[altiplano]

When I trained, I dictated what I would pay.

I don't want to talk about it with your clock running, thanks... I'm good.

Ground briefing is not a licensing requirement.

[digits_]

When I trained, I dictated what I would pay.

I don't want to talk about it with your clock running, thanks... I'm good.

Ground briefing is not a licensing requirement.

Actually, it is mandatory. No time is specified though.

It might actually be the most obvious and easiest way to pay flight instructors more nowadays actually: keep the rate the same but start billing as soon as you start working with a student until he leaves after the flight. After all, that's how you pay most self employed people when you hire them.

[Conflicting Traffic]

Ground briefing is not a licensing requirement.

In accordance with Part IV of the CAR's, Preparatory Ground Instruction is required any time new material is covered in flight, and a Pre-Flight Briefing is required for every training flight (including solos). So yes, briefings are in fact a licensing requirement.

The question isn't "should ground work be done?", it's "how much ground work is reasonable?". For a well prepared student on a lesson that covers only straight and level (which itself is questionable), the PGI should be maybe 10 minutes and the Pre-Flight Briefing should be maybe another 5 minutes. But these numbers can increase pretty fast if the student is unprepared or only participates passively in the lesson.

An hour spent talking about the lesson on the ground before the flight was cancelled due to wx

If the student was well prepared and only S&L was covered, this is off-the-charts excessive.

[trey kule]

“It might actually be the most obvious and easiest way to pay flight instructors more nowadays actually: keep the rate the same but start billing as soon as you start working with a student until he leaves after the flight. After all, that's how you pay most self employed people when you hire them.”

This is done by a few of the 142 schools in the US. 4 years ago, as part of an audit we monitored some of the briefings.
The briefing times reduced by almost 50% when they were monitored...and in the student surveys later it seemed that more aids were employed during the monitored briefings.
No more billing for idle chit chat, or just a “quick” call or check your messages.

A more preferable way, in my opinion, is a flat rate per lesson, based on 1.3 flight hours, .6 pre and post briefings, and .2 for instructor lesson prep and paperwork. Instructor paid for 2.5 hours if a “contract by the hour instructor”. To compensate for unbillable time.
And a limit of 7.5 hours instructing a day...

As an aside to the original quote. How many flight schools pay an instructor from the time they start in their shift, until they finish? (Colleges excluded)
No 6 lessons a day....I read poster instructors here bragging about falling asleep during a lesson. Apparently more than a few of them think that is perfectly OK.
A simple briefing note signed by the instructor and student if it goes over...
( except for longer exercises like cross country, of course).
No more “student unprepared” talk. Has to be put on paper and signed.

[Schooner69A]

It was a lot easier in the military: student didn't know the stuff, you didn't go flying in.

And given that it is a lot easier to critique than the lecture, after the usual aim, motivation, outline, and link (or whatever the preamble is called now) you'd throw the chalk at the student, sit down, and say: "tell me how to fly a circuit, execute a stall, do a spin" or whatever. If he could tell you all he needed to know in a few minutes, you went for the parachutes.

It was sometime hard to instill in fledgling instructors that a "briefing" was exactly that...

[altiplano]

When I trained, I dictated what I would pay.

I don't want to talk about it with your clock running, thanks... I'm good.

Ground briefing is not a licensing requirement.

Actually, it is mandatory. No time is specified though.

It might actually be the most obvious and easiest way to pay flight instructors more nowadays actually: keep the rate the same but start billing as soon as you start working with a student until he leaves after the flight. After all, that's how you pay most self employed people when you hire them.

So don't let the instructor start working with you, make it clear you're paying for flight instruction only... if you're ready tell them to put the pictures and models away. I realize people get intimidated by the experience... but you're the one paying... don't let them run you up, unless you want/need to review something...

Please point out where ground briefing is a "mandatory" in the LICENSING REQUIREMENT. I've pasted the requirements below for your ease of reference... in fact not only is no time specified, pre-flight briefings are not specified at all... instructors might want to do it, but it isn't a requirement.

DIVISION VI - PRIVATE PILOT LICENCE
421.26 Aeroplanes - Requirements
(1) Age
An applicant shall be a minimum of seventeen years of age.

(2) Medical Fitness
(amended 2007/12/30; previous version)

(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 3 Medical Certificate valid for a Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplanes:
(i) where an applicant holds a Category 4 Medical Certificate for the purpose of a Student Pilot Permit, the applicant shall upgrade to a Category 3 Medical Certificate prior to making application for the Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.
(b) The licence is maintained by a valid Category 1 or 3 Medical Certificate.
(amended 2007/12/30; previous version)
(3) Knowledge
An applicant shall have:

(a) completed a minimum of 40 hours private pilot aeroplane ground school instruction on the following subjects:
(i) Canadian Aviation Regulations,
(ii) Aerodynamics and Theory of Flight,
(iii) Meteorology,
(iv) Airframes, Engines and Systems,
(v) Flight Instruments,
(vi) Radio and Electronic Theory,
(vii) Navigation,
(viii) Flight Operations,
(ix) Licensing Requirements, and
(x) Human Factors, including pilot decision-making; and
(b) obtained a minimum of 60% in each of the following four mandatory subject areas as well as in the overall written examination Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane (PPAER):
(i) Air Law - regulations, rules and orders, air traffic services, practices and procedures, and licensing requirements relevant to the licence;
(ii) Navigation - navigation, radio aids and electronic theory;
(iii) Meteorology;
(iv) Aeronautics - General Knowledge - airframes, engines and systems, theory of flight, flight instruments and flight operations.
(4) Experience
(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 45 hours private pilot flight training in aeroplanes under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane. A maximum 5 of the 45 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or flight training device.
(amended 1998/09/01; previous version)
(b) The flight training shall include a minimum of:
(i) 17 hours dual instruction flight time, including a minimum of 3 hours cross-country flight time and 5 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 3 hours may be instrument ground time; and
(amended 1998/09/01; previous version)
(ii) 12 hours solo flight time, including 5 hours cross-country flight time with a flight of a minimum of 150 nautical miles which shall include 2 full stop landings at points other than the point of departure.
(5) Skill
Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall successfully complete a flight test as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane in accordance with Schedule 3 “Flight Test for the Issuance of a Private Pilot Licence – Aeroplane” of Standard 428 - Conduct of Flight Tests.
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)

(6) Credits
(a) Knowledge
(i) An applicant who holds a Pilot Permit - Gyroplane or a private or higher type pilot licence for helicopters may, when applying for the issue of Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane have the 40 hour ground instruction requirement reduced to 20 hours.
(ii) An applicant who holds a Pilot Permit - Gyroplane or a private or higher type pilot licence for helicopters shall in lieu of completing the written examination PPAER obtain a minimum of 60% in the written examination Private Pilot Aeroplane Rating - Alternate Category (PARAC).
(b) Experience
(i) The total flight time must include a minimum of 30 hours in aeroplanes.
(ii) Where an applicant holds a pilot permit or licence in another aircraft category flight time credits shall be claimed as follows:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)
(A) Helicopter and Gyroplane
(I) a maximum of 15 hours towards the total flight time; and
(II) a maximum of 4 hours solo flight time, 2 hours of which shall be credited to solo cross-country flight time.
(B) Glider
A maximum of 5 hours pilot-in-command flight time towards the total flight time.

(C) Three Axis Ultra-light Aeroplane
A maximum of 10 hours pilot-in-command flight time towards the total flight time.

(D) Instrument Flight Time
An applicant who holds a private or higher type licence in another category shall be credited with instrument flight time acquired in the other category towards meeting the instrument experience requirements provided that the instrument flight time acquired in the other category is not credited towards the 17 hours of dual instruction flight time or the 12 hours solo flight time.

(7) Credits for DND Applicants
(a) Active and retired Canadian Forces personnel who have qualified to pilot aeroplane wings standard or who have successfully completed the Basic Flying Training course of approximately 120 hours shall be considered to have met the ground school instruction requirement, the written examination requirement, the course requirement and the skill requirement provided that:
(amended 2003/03/01; previous version)
(i) the applicant has met the flight time requirements specified in subsection (4) of which a minimum of 10 hours flight time in aeroplanes has been acquired in the 12 months preceding the date of application, and
(amended 2003/03/01; previous version)
(ii) the applicant obtains a minimum of 90% in the written examination Student Pilot Permit or Private Pilot Licence for Foreign and Military Applicants, Air Regulations (PSTAR).
(amended 2003/03/01; previous version)
(b) A person who has undergone aeroplane pilot flight training in the Canadian Forces may be credited military dual and solo aeroplane flight time and aeroplane ground school time towards the knowledge and experience requirements for the issue of a Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.
(amended 2003/03/01; no previous version)
(8) Licence Issued On the Basis of Foreign Licence
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(a) An applicant who is the holder of a Private or higher pilot licence -aeroplane issued by a Contracting State shall be considered:
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)
(i) to have met the ground school instruction requirement; and
(amended 1999/03/01;previous version)
(ii) to have met the written examination requirement and the flight test requirement, provided that the foreign licence was not issued on the basis of a licence from another State, and that the applicant:
(amended 1999/03/01; no previous version)
(A) has met the flight time requirements specified in subsection (4);
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)
(B) has obtained a minimum of 90% in the written examination Student Pilot Permit or Private Pilot Licence for Foreign and Military Applicants, Aviation Regulations (PSTAR); and
(amended 2000/09/01); previous version)
(C) has completed, as pilot in command or co-pilot in aeroplanes, a minimum of 5 take-offs and 5 landings within the 6 months preceding the date of application for the Canadian licence.
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)
(b) The licence shall be annotated by the Minister to indicate that it was issued on the basis of the foreign licence.
(amended 1999/03/01; no previous version)
(c) The Minister shall remove the annotation from the licence, provided that the applicant has successfully completed:
(amended 1999/03/01; no previous version)
(i) the written examination requirements (PPAER); and
(amended 1999/03/01; no previous version)
(ii) the skill requirement.
(amended 1999/03/01; no previous version)
(9) Credits for Foreign Applicants
(amended 1999/03/01; no previous version)

(a) An applicant who holds a Private or higher pilot licence - Aeroplane issued by a contracting state and who does not wish to obtain a licence issued on the basis of the foreign licence, may be considered by the Minister to have met the ground school instruction requirement.
(amended 1999/03/01; no previous version)
(b) An applicant who holds a Private or higher pilot licence - Aeroplane issued by a contracting state other than Canada and who meets the flight time requirements specified in subsection (4) is considered to have met the experience requirements.
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)
(c) An applicant who does not hold a Private or higher pilot licence - Aeroplane issued by a contracting state may be credited foreign dual and solo aeroplane flight training time and aeroplane ground school time towards the knowledge and experience requirements for the issue of a Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane, if the applicant provides certification from the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane that all ground and flight training exercises have been satisfactorily reviewed.
(amended 2003/03/01; previous version)

[Conflicting Traffic]

Please point out where ground briefing is a "mandatory" in the LICENSING REQUIREMENT. I've pasted the requirements below for your ease of reference... in fact not only is no time specified, pre-flight briefings are not specified at all... instructors might want to do it, but it isn't a requirement.

Here you go:

405.31 No person shall commence a training flight unless the trainee has received from the flight instructor

(a) a pre-flight briefing; and

(b) where new flight exercises are to be conducted during the flight, preparatory ground instruction.

If you're trying to say that this isn't a part of the "LICENSING REQUIREMENT" because it isn't spelled out in CAR 421.26, that argument doesn't hold water. CAR 421.26(4), which you've quoted, requires the conduct of Flight Training. Flight Training is governed by CAR 405, which, of course, includes 405.31. In other words, PGI and pre-flight briefings are definitely a LICENSING REQUIREMENT (i.e. - if they aren't done and TC finds out, it is within their authority to refuse issuance of a license, and further to take enforcement action against the instructor(s) and the FTU).

[photofly]

20+ years ago when I was an instructor, if a student came prepared for his lesson and made a real effort to study up on the theory and procedures, his ground briefing would be quite short and consequently I would only charge something minimal (.2 or something to that effect).
Have things changed in the FTU world or are instructors still doing this?
I have a friend who has started working on his private who studies for each flight diligently but gets charged an hour of ground brief for every hour in the air. 20 years ago this was known as “milking a student”. Is this the new standard?
I am not pointing fingers or trying to troll anyone, I am just trying to honestly figure out if this is the new normal or should he switch instructors.
Thanks
John

Instructors deserve to be paid for the time they spend teaching students. Both the time spent teaching preparatory ground instruction, and pre- and post- flight briefing and debriefing.

Instructors deserve to be paid for the time they spend inspecting - and teaching the student to inspect - the airplane. They deserve to be paid for the time spent going through the weather with the student. They deserve to be paid for the time they spend filling out the pre-flight paperwork, daily flight record, examining the journey log, calling for fuel, reading and explaining NOTAMs, and the time they spend teaching and supervising the student to do all these things. They deserve to be paid for the time they spend filling out student paperwork including PTRs, competing test recommends, marking practice exams and everything else they do with and on behalf of a student.

Instructors are not slaves, and should not be expected or required to do all these compulsory and time-consuming activities for free.

It is not possible to complete all these activities and effectively teach the material required by TC, as described in the Flight Training Manual and Flight Instructor Guide in 12 minutes per lesson. If the FTU records show that you consistently claim to do all these mandatory activities in 12 minutes, Transport Canada will take you to task for inadequate teaching, and/or inadequate pre- and post-flight briefings.

If you want good instruction, be prepared to pay for it. If you have a genuine concern in this instance that your friend's instruction is inadequate, you should encourage your friend to bring it to the attention of the CFI at his FTU. Maybe you should even renew your instructor rating and teach your friend yourself. Perhaps you could start an FTU, and show the world how it should be done. On the other hand, If you just like having a moan and a bitch, and want to crow with your buddies about how things were better "back in the day", then this is the right place and you should carry on.

[photofly]

When I trained, I dictated what I would pay.

I soooo want to be a fly on the wall when you try that, at an FTU.

[photofly]

For a well prepared student on a lesson that covers only straight and level (which itself is questionable)

What do you find questionable about it?

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Photofly....Your message gets lost in you hostile delivery.

[Cessna 180]

I don't know, I went to a larger FTU in Canada and I don't think I ever paid a flight instructor more than .1 or .2 and usually it was nothing. Maybe I paid a bit more when I was in the early stages of my Private, but only once or twice. My instructor didn't try to rake me though.

I had some friends who had instructors that took them to the bank each time they went flying, solo or dual.

[altiplano]

Fair enough JHR, I'm not an instructor. But you don't need to spend equal times ground briefing and it can be a pretty informal, quick thing...

and to be clear, I do think instructors should be paid, but a newb leading a newb isn't leading any profound lessons in these extended briefings... and much of the ground instruction can be detailed in the training manuals and groundschool.

When I trained, I dictated what I would pay.

I soooo want to be a fly on the wall when you try that, at an FTU.

It was pretty straight straight forward really. I saved and worked hard to pay for my training, I didn't have unlimited funds to get eaten up by incidentals with minimal benefit getting ran up - briefings, "simulators", etc... I remember I called Transport when the head flight instructor at the first FTU I was at wouldn't sign off my night rating... thought I should do a "little more dual" even though it was black and white what was signed off... he signed it... then I found a different place to complete the rest of my CPL.

I mean it's your money. They are providing a service. You aren't obligated to buy more than you need, just because that's how want to do it.

[Aviatard]

I don't know, I went to a larger FTU in Canada and I don't think I ever paid a flight instructor more than .1 or .2 and usually it was nothing. Maybe I paid a bit more when I was in the early stages of my Private, but only once or twice. My instructor didn't try to rake me though.

That's great you found someone who was willing to work for free. Do you expect to work the first 10 minutes of every hour for nothing? No? Then why should flight instructors not bill for the time they spend delivering you a service? Briefings are not optional, they're mandated by the CARs.