PPL training on floats?

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marakii
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PPL training on floats?

Post by marakii » Fri May 18, 2018 5:36 pm

Can someone train for their PPL on floats straight from the get go and is it wise to do so?
Thanks, people say it’s harder just getting feedback.
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Bede
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by Bede » Fri May 18, 2018 5:42 pm

Yes.

I'm just finishing off a student now. He'll have to get his Landplane rating once we're done.

The tricky thing is finding an instructor to do it. It's a lot of fun for both student and instructor IMO.
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by 20DMEYYZ » Sat May 19, 2018 2:43 pm

i think it's dependent on the trainee as glassy water conditions could inhibit some student's progress.
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by C.W.E. » Sat May 19, 2018 4:05 pm

i think it's dependent on the trainee as glassy water conditions could inhibit some student's progress.
In what way could glassy water inhibit training?
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by C.W.E. » Sat May 19, 2018 6:19 pm

Marakii.

If you want to fly floats for a living buy a relatively cheap float plane and do all your flying on it up to your commercial pilots license and you will have no problem getting a job.

Then if you want to sell the airplane and get your money back.
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20DMEYYZ
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by 20DMEYYZ » Sat May 19, 2018 6:23 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:05 pm
i think it's dependent on the trainee as glassy water conditions could inhibit some student's progress.
In what way could glassy water inhibit training?
students with less ability could be more challenged and/or discouraged possibly decreasing their lesson(s) results. at the ppl stage some students would do better on 6000' tarmac than eating up lake continuously pitching up all while their instructor is giving commands to maintain the proper descent. i have seen much simpler flying mistakes from ppl pilot's that required less skill than glassy water, so ultimately this training would be recommended at the discretion of the flight instructor in my opinion.
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by PilotDAR » Sat May 19, 2018 6:43 pm

at the ppl stage some students would do better on 6000' tarmac than eating up lake continuously pitching up all while their instructor is giving commands to maintain the proper descent.
:?

If a PPL student needs 6000' of pavement, something's wrong. Most lakes used for float training are probably longer than this anyway. Glassy water training is about maintaining the control and profile which you intend (not continuously pitching up. I hope). It is a required skill for float flying, and a wise skill to have for some off airport wheel/ski landings (like a snow covered surface with poor texture). The wheel equivalent would be that the PPL float student will have to refine their skills of maintaining on the runway centerline in a crosswind, which is not so much required on the water. Each environment has its own demands of skill. That said, I find that float trained pilots seem to have better natural skills when transitioning to wheels than the other way around. Do your PPL on floats if there is an opportunity, there'll be many opportunities to fly wheels later.
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by C.W.E. » Sat May 19, 2018 7:13 pm

students with less ability could be more challenged and/or discouraged possibly decreasing their lesson(s) results. at the ppl stage some students would do better on 6000' tarmac than eating up lake continuously pitching up all while their instructor is giving commands to maintain the proper descent
.


I am having some difficulty understanding what you are saying.

Glassy water landings are really quite simple, set and maintain the proper attitude and power setting for the desired rate of descent and wait for the airplane to contact the water, done correctly it may be difficult to know when water contact is made.

It is simple basic flying skills that should have been taught in the first few hours of training for the PPL.

One of the most frequent lack of basic flying skills I found when I was doing advanced flying training was the number of licensed pilots who took off and climbed like a roller coaster chasing the airspeed indicator.

How in hell these pilots ever passed their flight test is beyond me, unless the flight test examiners did not have a clue about attitudes and movements and how to produce and control same.

In fact there can only be one reason these poor flying skills exist, the instructors and examiners are at fault.
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by PilotDAR » Sat May 19, 2018 7:29 pm

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW7mB6sLLqg[/youtube]

This video shows a presentable glassy water landing. Note that the power reduction and stall warning peep which can be heard both occur after contact with the water. The power and rate of descent once established, were unchanged until after water contact.
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by C.W.E. » Sat May 19, 2018 7:47 pm

I remember on of my more interesting sea plane training sessions in Holland I had to do several pilots for recurrent training for insurance purposes in their PBY and the Zuider Zee was like a mirror for two days.

The circuits were three minutes from touch and go to touch and go and the downwind portion of the circuits was at three hundred feet.

I did them three at a time in the airplane and they took turns every thirty minutes or ten circuits each.

They got real good at glassy water landings doing it that way. fly and observe, works like a charm.
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by youhavecontrol » Sun May 20, 2018 10:10 am

I don't fly floats, but I'm curious how the upper airwork would be carried out while using floats. Spins, spiral dives, unusual attitudes... I can't imagine they would be possible on floats. Which would mean you'd have to do some training on a land-based aircraft.
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by C.W.E. » Sun May 20, 2018 10:53 am

I don't fly floats, but I'm curious how the upper airwork would be carried out while using floats. Spins, spiral dives, unusual attitudes... I can't imagine they would be possible on floats. Which would mean you'd have to do some training on a land-based aircraft.
The only flight manoeuvre that can not be legally demonstrated in a float plane is the spin.

The only requirement for the PPL is a spin recovery be demonstrated by the instructor which can be done in a land plane that is certified for spins.

There seems to be a shortage of sea plane pilots and therefore there must be a very good opportunity for flight instructors to start a business teaching the PPL on sea planes.

Another plus for such a business is there is no need for a FTU-OC if you are teaching the student on their own sea plane.

A win , win for everyone except TCCA being able to gouge your pockets for money.
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by FishermanIvan » Tue May 22, 2018 5:18 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 10:53 am

There seems to be a shortage of sea plane pilots and therefore there must be a very good opportunity for flight instructors to start a business teaching the PPL on sea planes.

Another plus for such a business is there is no need for a FTU-OC if you are teaching the student on their own sea plane.

A win , win for everyone except TCCA being able to gouge your pockets for money.
I think there's a shortage of seaplane pilots because of the WORK, not because seaplanes aren't fun.

I mean, I loaded three outboards and helped tie a boat to the outside of an Otter that I don't even get to fly. At 4:45 in the morning. And that's pretty goddamned easy work considering what else we haul around. There's a lot more to seaplane flying than just the flying, and I think that's why there's a shortage of seaplane pilots. I always joke when we're loading a shitload onto the plane that "I should've been a flight instructor" because they certainly don't work like we do. The magic path to 1000 hours or so is much more easily obtained as a FI than a bush pilot.

And the flying out here is much more challenging. Yes, students will probably try and kill you, but we land on lakes, rivers, and tie up at beaches, shitty docks, rocks, pickup canoes out of marshes, land in rice covered water, etc... I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all, because I know jack shit about this kind of flying (it's my second season) but the flying can be challenging. Rivers and lakes aren't straight, and when it's 30 degrees and the plane is loaded, it's challenging work.

That said, I'm lucky to work for a great company, and I wouldn't change a damn thing about my career. I love it. I imagine I'll love it too when I can look back and say "I'm happy I did that, because my current job is WAY easier!"
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by matt17 » Fri May 25, 2018 4:33 am

I am planning on finishing up my RPP on floats this summer at Sudbury Aviation. Ran out of time last summer after several small delays outside the control of both myself and the instructors. Did all work except for one flight for spin training in their float planes. Glassy did present some delays when it came to soloing as it was their company policy (related to insurance conditions I believe) not to rent/allow solo flights when the water was glassy. Because I had to travel there for the weekends I had several trips where I was able to get really good at glassy water landings (great training for the long term) but was unable to solo.

Overall I am very happy with my decision to pursue my license on floats as that is my longterm goal (own a small float plane for recreational flying) and I am building float hours and experience throughout.
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by MattW » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:48 pm

I think the only issue is either finding a flight school that has a float plane and will do your PPL on it (we have one in Pitt Meadows) or finding an insurance company that will cover your own plane while you train on it (if you want hull insurance).
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by marakii » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:37 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 6:19 pm
Marakii.

If you want to fly floats for a living buy a relatively cheap float plane and do all your flying on it up to your commercial pilots license and you will have no problem getting a job.

Then if you want to sell the airplane and get your money back.
Sounds good, but don’t operators want “commercial “ experience? I’d love to buy a cheap floatplane even an advanced ultralight floatplane and put in the time it would this help me get a floatjob simply flying around?

Thanks
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by PilotDAR » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:44 am

For your first float flying job, float experience is much more valuable to you than "commercial" experience. It's easy to teach a good float pilot the nuances of flying commercial floats, it's much more difficult to teach a commercial pilot lots of float experience. If you have the freedom of use of a modest floatplane, you'll find that there are fishing trips and such that you may be able to tag along, and build experience while being mentored by other experienced pilots on the trip - that's how I learned. When a potential employer sees you have hundreds of hours in a modest floatplane, particularly further north, that will mean that you found you way around with charts and a modest hand held GPS, rather than spent time tight seat, not really flying anyway, and looking at glass cockpit. The bush operators want to hire the pilot who has demonstrated already that they can take care of things on their own.

The sharpest pilots I know became that way flying their own plane at some point in their flying career - the earlier the better.
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Re: PPL training on floats?

Post by Beefitarian » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:29 am

PilotDAR wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 7:29 pm
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW7mB6sLLqg[/youtube]

This video shows a presentable glassy water landing. Note that the power reduction and stall warning peep which can be heard both occur after contact with the water. The power and rate of descent once established, were unchanged until after water contact.
You have to take the S off https to allow an unsecured site to recognize the youtube.

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