Self study hours ppl

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Posthumane
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by Posthumane » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:01 am

photofly wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:16 pm
Harv's Air has had considerable difficulty getting all TC regions to accept their online ground school as meeting the CARs requirements. In their course, which I have seen, Harv's Air provides all the materials - both written and video - keeps logs what you study and has considerable online testing that you have to take before getting a letter of recommendation. The fact that even going to the lengths that Harv's Air does to provide "self-paced study" doesn't without question meet the bar that TC sets (according to TC itself) should be a flag to anyone who thinks that deciding, themselves, to sit in front of "From the Ground Up" for 40 hours entitles them to claim credit for "ground school".

What we also learn, however, is that Transport Canada doesn't put a lot of effort into verifying what schools and/or instructors will sign off as acceptable. Once you get that letter of recommendation, it's nobody's job to check to see what's behind it.

The fact that instructors or schools are soft and will sign off study that clearly and obviously doesn't meet the requirements, doesn't mean that that study now meets the requirements.

But - if you can get away with it - good for you.
Which TC regions was Harv's air having problems with? I've done a few of their ground schools and Prairie region certainly had no problems with it.

I think the fact that TC doesn't go back and verify what a person has studied and for how long is a good thing, because frankly it's irrelevant. If someone has the knowledge required to pass all the tests (the written tests, the verbal, and the practical portions of the flight tests) then how they obtained that knowledge is not that important. Results, not process. Granted, tests are not able to check every single portion of a person's knowledge, but that's always going to be a limitation. I think the reason the hour requirement is in the CARs is to keep flight schools from skimping and pawning off something like a one day class as "ground school" and calling it good.
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455tt
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by 455tt » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:15 am

photofly wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:16 pm
Harv's Air has had considerable difficulty getting all TC regions to accept their online ground school as meeting the CARs requirements. In their course, which I have seen, Harv's Air provides all the materials - both written and video - keeps logs what you study and has considerable online testing that you have to take before getting a letter of recommendation. The fact that even going to the lengths that Harv's Air does to provide "self-paced study" doesn't without question meet the bar that TC sets (according to TC itself) should be a flag to anyone who thinks that deciding, themselves, to sit in front of "From the Ground Up" for 40 hours entitles them to claim credit for "ground school".

What we also learn, however, is that Transport Canada doesn't put a lot of effort into verifying what schools and/or instructors will sign off as acceptable. Once you get that letter of recommendation, it's nobody's job to check to see what's behind it.

The fact that instructors or schools are soft and will sign off study that clearly and obviously doesn't meet the requirements, doesn't mean that that study now meets the requirements.

But - if you can get away with it - good for you.
I wonder if TC has difficulty with the fact of multiple FTU's in the case of Harv's Air. The student is supposed to be under the supervision of their FTU to complete their ground school, then the student goes off to Harv's Air for ground school only, completes the 40 hours and gets their recommend. OK so the student is utilizing 2 FTU's, one for flight training and another for ground school and this seems fine. But then how does the ground school from Harvs' Air ultimately get entered into the student's PTR under the control of the primary FTU? Does the self study from Harv's Air get transferred into the PTR at the primary FTU, or are 2 separate PTR's from 2 separate FTU's submitted at the time of licence application? Just curious if anyone knows and maybe this in part explains TC concerns with self study where multiple FTU's are used.
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photofly
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by photofly » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:32 am

The student is supposed to be under the supervision of their FTU to complete their ground school
There is no such requirement. There is no "their" FTU - you can complete your training at as many different FTUs as you like.
At the relevant stages, an instructor has to provide a letter of recommendation - for the written exam, and for a flight test - but they don't need to be "your" instructor, or at "your" FTU. They simply have to warrant the relevant criteria are met.

Transport doesn't even look at PTRs; the AP uses them (sometimes several, from different schools, for one student) to sign off the licence, then they go to TC and go straight in the garbage.
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455tt
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by 455tt » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:25 pm

While giving ground school the school is under numerous supervisory requirements for their trainees as an FTU.

They have to:

- ensure the PTR ground school entries are accurate
- attend to the appointment and qualification of ground instructors
- supervise the ground instructors of the FTU
- attend to the quality and content of the ground school provided

See CARs 426.22, 405.33.

Yes when a student for example leaves one FTU and shows up at another FTU they can provide their PTR's to show they already did the ground school at another FTU and an AP could use both PTR's to complete the application for licence certifcation.

But where I am not understanding you is why would Harv's Air have had difficulties with TC for their online ground school as you claim; since they are an FTU themselves and can adopt whatever mix of lectures and home study they want, and since a trainee can use multiple FTU's, then why would TC have had issues?
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photofly
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by photofly » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:18 pm

You’d have to ask Adam Penner, but I my guess is that it’s because not every TC region accepts (or accepted) that if you study on your own it’s possible for the FTU to validate that you actually did the studying of the provided material for the required number of hours.

Which is more or less where we came in.

So let’s hope the OP’s sign off by his FTU to take the writen test doesn’t generate an enquiry from a TC Inspector about the nature of his “self study” ground school, after all:

“an applicant for a Pilot Permit - Gyroplane, Private Pilot Licence, or Commercial Pilot Licence shall provide a letter of recommendation from the Flight Training Unit or from the flight instructor who is responsible for the training of the applicant, stating that the applicant has completed the ground school instruction...”

If an inspector does make enquiries, I would expect the “ground school” the OP is self-studying to be disallowed.
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geneticistx
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by geneticistx » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:04 pm

Strip it down.

1. You need someone to sign you off to write the ground
2. You have to pass the test
3. You need a way to log your flight training hours. Either in your own plane or an FTU. I dont think an FTU will turn you away for not doing your ground with them, they will make enough money from you in their aircraft. The FTU can work with you to sign you off to write the exam, or find an appropriate private instructor to sign you off.
4. Learn the material for the ground exam. Prove to someone authorized to sign you off that you'll pass it. They will recommend you. You write it. If you fail any or all of the sections, you'll need someone to sign you off to write again.

I do think Harv's has a good thing set-up. There are other on-line courses. I did Harv's. There was some deficiencies, but i eventually had the FTU, i was doing my flying with, sign me off for the ground.
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by rotorspeed » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:19 pm

Airframe did you have to document the times you studied
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by rotorspeed » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:53 am

Airframe did you have to document the hours and times
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by AirFrame » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:44 am

rotorspeed wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:53 am
Airframe did you have to document the hours and times
Nope. I just got a letter of recommendation from my instructor, stating that I had completed 40 hours of ground school through self-study.

Keep in mind the whole "recommendation" thing is intended to reduce the workload at TC. If they let everyone who wanted to write an exam, write an exam, they'd need more staff to supervise. They offload the screening to the flying schools to make sure the people coming in aren't wasting everyone's time.
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adampenner
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by adampenner » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:41 am

Good morning all!

We've been giving recommendations and records of ground school for the PPL and CPL remotely since 1999, for the most part without drama.

The only region that gave us drama was the Pacific region back in 2012-2013. The superintendent at the time said that according to CARs 421.13 the ground school letters has to come from the school the student is flying with. This is bull, and confirm by Transport Canada National with the email below. This superintendent might of had a friend that writes aviation books and can't be named on this forum. Since this email from TC National, and the retirement of this superintendent, we've had no issues with our letters anywhere in Canada including the Pacific region.

We take care of the hassle of letters and responsibility for the ground school. No need to ask your flight instructor to take responsibility, we handle it. Our material has been finely tuned for both a comprehensive knowledge of the material, but also pointed so that candidates can do well on the TC exams. We've receive a lot of feedback on the material and TC exams and always working to improve it. We've setup a video studio complete with green screen and professional sound system. Most recently we have added a IOS app that allows offline viewing. Check it out here:
https://itunes.apple.com/app/id1391976074

For not much more than an hour of flight training dual, you get a complete ground school including required letters (income tax deductible as well). I think it's a bargain and a lot easier than self studying on your own. Why cut a new trail, when we've paved a highway for you to complete the exams successfully.

Adam Penner
adam@harvsair.com if you have questions.
www.pilottraining.ca



From: Saulnier, Marc [mailto:marc.saulnier@tc.gc.ca]
Sent: September-26-13 9:40 AM

We have run into this situation before. The ground school training provided by online providers, community colleges, or the situation where an individual completed a ground school at a particular flight school (EG. Ottawa Flying Club) and then did the flight training at another flight school (EG. Rockcliffe Flying Club) amount to the same thing.

If we look at 421.13 (3)(a), a letter from the flight training unit or a letter from the flight instructor who is responsible… the statement ” flight instructor responsible” was written in the CARs to mean the freelance instructor responsible. The wording is not clear, however the easiest solution may be to have the flight school issue the letter of recommendation. If the online provider is also a flight school (EG. Harv’s Air) then I see no reason why a letter from the provider would not be acceptable.



DIVISION II - TESTING

421.13 Examination Prerequisites

(1) For admission to a written examination required for the issue of a permit, licence or rating an applicant shall have met the medical standards for the issue of the permit, licence or rating and shall produce proof of medical fitness in one of the following forms:

(a) a Medical Certificate in the appropriate medical category;

(b) a Medical Assessment Letter (Form 26-0417) in the appropriate medical category;

(c) in the case of a Student Pilot Permit - Aeroplane, Pilot Permit - Ultra-light Aeroplane or Pilot Licence - Glider, a Civil Aviation Medical Declaration (Form 26-0297);

(d) a temporary Medical Certificate in the appropriate medical category; or

(e) a Medical Examination Report assessed to the appropriate medical category by the Regional Aviation Medical Officer.

(2) For admission to a written examination, proof of identification shall be required in the form of a permit, licence or other official document bearing the signature and photograph of the candidate.
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(3) To be eligible to write the examination required for the issue of a permit, licence or rating, the candidate shall produce the following letter of recommendation dated within 60 days prior to the date of the written examination:
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(a) an applicant for a Pilot Permit - Gyroplane, Private Pilot Licence, or Commercial Pilot Licence shall provide a letter of recommendation from the Flight Training Unit or from the flight instructor who is responsible for the training of the applicant, stating that the applicant has completed the ground school instruction, and has reached a sufficient level of knowledge to write the examination;
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)

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rotorspeed
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by rotorspeed » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:59 am

Adam are your recommendation letters saying the person taking the course have 40hrs ground school and ready for exam or just stating ready for exam
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by 7ECA » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:14 pm

From what I remember, Harv's gives you two letters. One stating that you've met the requirements for ground school instruction (number of hours, breakdown, subjects, etc...), and the second is a recommend to sit the exam (only if you complete a certain number of Harv's online exams, with a certain % score overall).
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