Is the trainer you fly and start with important to an career in aviation?

This forum has been developed to discuss flight instruction/University and College programs.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore

lastcallforkay
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:25 am

Is the trainer you fly and start with important to an career in aviation?

Post by lastcallforkay »

Hi guys.

I am currently looking to get my PPL and CPL with one of the flight schools located in Boundary Bay Airport (closest location to me from East Vancouver area via Knight Bridge).

My goal is to work for one of the major airlines. I have 0 flight experience but am very eager to learn.

My question is : does the type of trainer you learn in affect your flying experience? I know this seems vague, but the one flight school I visited and liked was Sea Land Air Flight School. They have a fleet of Diamonds and diamonds only. No Cessnas or Pipers. This planes are only 15 yrs old and from what i know have glass cockpits. What I have researched so far is that if i plan to work for the majors, learning in a glass cockpit will help me as the future planes I'd be in would be glass cockpit (vs steam guage).

Professional Flying Centre (PROIFC) would start me off on Cessnas (not in good condition from what I saw when I visited). Thesee planes seem to be way more dated (I think the dispatcher said 70 years old).

Can you give me some answers as to if this really matters? Will attending Sea Land Air and flying ONLY diamonds affect my training to work for an airline?

Thanks!! I really appreciate all your answers.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by lastcallforkay on Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by photofly »

Probably the best aircraft in which to do your first 10 hours of flight training is a basic taildragger with steam gauge airspeed, altimeter, inclinometer, magnetic compass and tach. No gyro instruments.

At least in the Cessna your instructor can cover the instruments at which you shouldn’t be looking.

You’re off on the wrong track if you think glass panel displays are going to make you a better pilot.

Also - Stop using that wretched MS flight sim - NOW.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
lhalliday
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:30 pm

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by lhalliday »

Steam gauges to glass cockpit is a much easier transition than the other way around. You're not going to be flying a 787 or a Q400 in your first job.

You're learning to fly, not play computer games. I've heard of people doing their PPL in CFC's Citabria, and heartily approve. That thing's fun!

...laura
---------- ADS -----------
 
lastcallforkay
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by lastcallforkay »

photofly wrote: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:53 am Probably the best aircraft in which to do your first 10 hours of flight training is a basic taildragger with steam gauge airspeed, altimeter, inclinometer, magnetic compass and tach. No gyro instruments.

At least in the Cessna your instructor can cover the instruments at which you shouldn’t be looking.

You’re off on the wrong track if you think glass panel displays are going to make you a better pilot.

Also - Stop using that wretched MS flight sim - NOW.
Thank you for your reply photofly.

To clarify, is a Cessna a basic taildragger with those steam gauge indicators?

I have read on this forum that it is better to have start and finish your PPL/CPL with one school. So i want to make sure I am on the right track. If Sea Land Air flight school only provides Diamond fleets (with glass panel displays) then I think it would be a better decision for my training to choose a school who can let me fly a Cessna then, correct?

I would love your opinion.
---------- ADS -----------
 
CpnCrunch
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4011
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by CpnCrunch »

According to their website, all their DA20s have steam gauges:

https://www.sealandair.ca/our_fleet.php
---------- ADS -----------
 
ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 6309
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by ahramin »

The aircraft you learn to fly on has absolutely no effect on your capability as a pilot. Over the course of your career, the more aircraft you learn to fly the better a pilot you will be. The order you learn to fly in is meaningless compared to the number and variety of aircraft you become proficient on.

Round gauges or glass panel makes no difference when learning to fly VFR. It's simply not important enough to worry about compared to study habits, quality of instruction, and rate of training.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DanWEC
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by DanWEC »

A DA20 is, in my opinion, a far better initial trainer than a 172.
Tight, responsive controls, a stick, a rudder that you can actually feel and need to use, great visibility, and a variable speed prop.
You'll have slightly better hands and feet at 200 hrs coming from the Katana, but that being said there is plenty more you will do over a few thousand hours that will make far more difference in your career.
Cheers
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4053
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by PilotDAR »

I'm not quite sure I understand the English in the title, but I'll take it to ask is the type of aircraft chosen for training important. You can train on most types, though the skills you will develop will be stronger or weaker in different areas based upon the type you've been flying. If the training environment would enable it, I'd like to see all new pilots learn their initial flying skills while flying Tiger Moth era aircraft. Taildragger, airpseed indicator out on the wing strut so it's not distracting you when you should be focused on learning to feel the aircraft, and mushy handling (sort of like a 172) so you learn that not all aircraft are crisp and responsive, some types have to be flown more "cause and effect". Between PPL and CPL, fly as many different types as you can find. That will build your skills of being adaptable.

Avoid glass cockpit as long as you can, it's a distraction in VFR light aircraft flying, and avoid computer game flying, hang around the airport instead, you might learn more about real planes there!
---------- ADS -----------
 
ZBBYLW
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 571
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:28 am

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by ZBBYLW »

Like others have said if you want to become the best pilot you can:

Find a good experienced instructor.
Fly as frequently as possible.
Do your PPL on a tailwheel if possible.
Once you're done your PPL fly all the types you can get your hands on.
Avoid glass as long as possible.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DanWEC
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by DanWEC »

PilotDAR wrote: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:25 am mushy handling (sort of like a 172) so you learn that not all aircraft are crisp and responsive, some types have to be flown more "cause and effect".
That's actually a good point. I've always thought that's it's better for a primary student to actually feel and learn exactly what the plane is doing though crisp feedback, improving motor skills, but there is definitely something to be said for the opposite, and also experiencing having to fly by attitudes and speeds.
+1 on trying to fly every type of plane you can! If nothing else it'll make for better cockpit convo at 3am.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by photofly »

ahramin wrote: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:44 am
Round gauges or glass panel makes no difference when learning to fly VFR. It's simply not important enough to worry about compared to study habits, quality of instruction, and rate of training.
Beautifully presented slickly animated glass panel displays are an impediment to getting your eyes outside to look at the horizon and judge the aircraft attitude, see where you're going, and avoid other aircraft.


Secondly, it's very difficult to cover up the attitude indicator on a glass panel without covering up the airspeed. And/or altitude. And, away goes your (frankly, ridiculous) slip/skid trapezium.

If glass panel displays had some kind of "instruction mode" where you could disable some parts of the display for teaching purposes, I might agree with you. Until then steam gauges and a pack of post-it notes will do the job better.

(I guess you could turn the display off entirely and use the backup steam gauges, but ... that just proves the point that steam gauges are better.)
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4053
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by PilotDAR »

My glass panel experience is limited to DA-42, Cessna Caravan, C 182, and a highly modified older 182, in which the Garmin G500 glass panel was STC installed. In the former aircraft, though they did each have a round ASI, it seemed natural to force myself to look at the glass. However, after 60 or so hours flying the STC'd older 182, I realized that I hardly ever referred to the glass. I had built that panel up to be a full set of redundant round instruments to the glass. As I would for any other legacy aircraft I flew, my eye automatically went to the round ASI. I had to remind myself that the bar graph and digital were there, but they did not catch on in my subconscious.

The Tiger Moth I flew a few times had a round ASI in the front and rear cockpits, and the vane type on the wing struct. They were all about 10 MPH apart from each other, I think the wing strut mounted one was the accurate one - so I pretty well ignored them all, and flew by feel.

Though I know that we must not knowingly fly and aircraft with a U/S ASI, I like the idea that the student pilot finds that there is no ASI reading once airborne, once or twice in their training, and has to just deal with it. 'Happened to me again earlier this week, despite my having had a pitot cover installed - they still got in there, and plugged it up! It's easy to check and deal with with most GA wheel planes, but try unplugging the pitot tube of a C180/185 on floats, when you have no dock to stand on! You really can't reach it from standing on the float, nor standing on the bottom with it beached - and you didn't think to take a ladder along! Learn to feel the plane.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
JasonE
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 837
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:26 pm

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by JasonE »

I've been flying an aircraft with an Aspen unit lately. Beside it resides a regular altimeter. I don't think I've read altitude off the Aspen once! On the other had, it replaces the DG and AI. I do look at it for those features but still find my eyes hunting for the round dials.
---------- ADS -----------
 
"Carelessness and overconfidence are more dangerous than deliberately accepted risk." -Wilbur Wright
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by photofly »

>>Though I know that we must not knowingly fly and aircraft with a U/S ASI, I like the idea that the student pilot finds that there is no ASI reading once airborne, once or twice in their training, and has to just deal with it

It's a great exercise to go and fly a few circuits with no airspeed information. But some people need to spend several hours flying with no attitude indicator as a matter of urgency, just to get them to look out of the big window in front of them. Having airspeed information all the time, but no artificial attitude reference, is a good thing.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by C.W.E. »

Why is there no AOA indicator in training airplanes?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chris M
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:41 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by Chris M »

C.W.E. wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:58 am Why is there no AOA indicator in training airplanes?
Because they cost money to install.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 6309
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by ahramin »

photofly wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:20 pm
ahramin wrote: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:44 am
Round gauges or glass panel makes no difference when learning to fly VFR. It's simply not important enough to worry about compared to study habits, quality of instruction, and rate of training.
Beautifully presented slickly animated glass panel displays are an impediment to getting your eyes outside to look at the horizon and judge the aircraft attitude, see where you're going, and avoid other aircraft.


Secondly, it's very difficult to cover up the attitude indicator on a glass panel without covering up the airspeed. And/or altitude. And, away goes your (frankly, ridiculous) slip/skid trapezium.

If glass panel displays had some kind of "instruction mode" where you could disable some parts of the display for teaching purposes, I might agree with you. Until then steam gauges and a pack of post-it notes will do the job better.

(I guess you could turn the display off entirely and use the backup steam gauges, but ... that just proves the point that steam gauges are better.)
Admittedly I'm not an ab initio instructor for airplanes but I don't think it matters what shape or colour the displays inside the aircraft are. The way to get a student to look outside is ... to make them look outside. When I was learning to fly, my instructor instructed me and I followed those instructions in the hope of learning to fly properly. No one ever covered any instruments at any stage of my training except under the hood learning partial panel. If training modern students really requires blanking out certain sources of information, I can't imagine it's really that much harder on a PFD rather than a series of round gauges.

I have noticed that once someone gets USED to a certain style of gauge, it can be difficult to make them change to the other style if the old style is still present. The eyes have a muscle memory and go to the familiar display. In this case I have found it handy to cover over the old source for a short period of time in order to help the transition.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by photofly »

So the ab-initio training that you've never done, you don't have a preference for never having done it in a steam gauge aircraft, nor in a glass panel display?
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
User avatar
5x5
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:30 pm

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by 5x5 »

C.W.E. wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:58 am Why is there no AOA indicator in training airplanes?
Why do you think there should be?
photofly wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:54 pm So the ab-initio training that you've never done, you don't have a preference for never having done it in a steam gauge aircraft, nor in a glass panel display?
Priceless!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Does the trainer you start with important?

Post by C.W.E. »

Why do you think there should be?
Personally I think it would be a valuable addition for training to give the student a better understanding of the realm of flight you are in at a given time.

I bought this one for my Cub, I chose the Falcon display.

http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Flight Training”