Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

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pelmet
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Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by pelmet »

I am fortunate that my job takes me to a wide variety of cities and gives me time to fly quite a few different aircraft types. Therefore I have had the opportunity to see a variety of flight school policies.

A few weeks ago, I had a flight cancelled because the temperature reached their cutoff point of 30 degrees Celsius for the entire fleet, much of which(but not all) are old C172 aircraft. 30 degrees is frequently reached in this particular near sea level city and I wasn't particularly pleased. Meanwhile, I just did a flight out in BC where the flight school(they also have old 172's along with other types) was booked solid and happily flying away with the temperature at 35 degrees Celsius(I was happily flying as well). Another school stops operations at 30 C as well, although their 172's are fuel injected and at higher field elevation. Does anyone have an opinion on what is a reasonable temperature cutoff. Meanwhile, the schools I see in the southern US just seem to carry on during the long hot(sometimes very hot) summer.

One could say performance issues are the problem but the ironic thing is that the school using a 2100 foot runway with trees beyond(not particularly close-in but definitely visible) is the school with no temp cutoff and in reality, no aircraft had any issues with performance although I doubt any were at max takeoff weight.

I suppose I can see 35 degrees being some sort of temperature cutoff for operations but 30 seems overly conservative to me. Is there some sort of unreasonable warm temperature fear here in much of Canada or is it reasonable to stop ops when it gets kind of hot.
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digits_
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by digits_ »

Never heard of a cut off for hot temperatures. Low temperature cut offs are more common though.
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DanWEC
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by DanWEC »

DA20's are very sensitive to overheating, and the plastics can break easily in cold, so they have some limiting temps, but C172's?
Unless they're simply having high temp issues with their particular airplanes.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by C-GGGQ »

With DA20 yes, but never heard of a 172 cutoff other than student/ instructor comfort. Definitely said no after a certain temp cause I wasn't gonna boil for an hrs pay.
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lownslow
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by lownslow »

Could they have had temp limits on some recently-installed avionics? How about strict oil temp limits on an on-condition engine program?
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photofly
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by photofly »

Somebody wrote it into their TC approved Flight Training Operations Manual, without thinking too hard about it, and now they're stuck with it.
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5x5
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by 5x5 »

Operational limits are set by the operator as they see fit. It doesn't really matter what anyone else feels is reasonable or not. In the marketplace when you find something not to your liking, simply go to another vendor/supplier that doesn't have that same annoyance and give them your business. If your curiousity really has to be satisfied, I'd suggest asking the particular operator rather than look for guesses and speculation from an anonymous internet forum.
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NotDirty!
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by NotDirty! »

I seem to recall this being a policy at the only non-college school at a busy (but now slated to close) airport in a major southern Ontario metropolitan area. As soon as the mercury hit 30, all flight ops stopped. There were times on those hot summer days that I might have enjoyed a break from sweating to the oldies in a vintage C150 or 172, but I only got paid when the Hobbs was turning, so I tried to get a good 10.0 per day!

No, LowNslow, it was nothing to do with new avionics, it was just policy. They also had a “good neighbour” policy that banned circuits on weekends, and probably more that I don’t know of.

I did have some friends who would prank call that school every time the temp hit 30, trying to book a discovery flight for that afternoon...
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lownslow
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by lownslow »

NotDirty! wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:17 pm I did have some friends who would prank call that school every time the temp hit 30, trying to book a discovery flight for that afternoon...
Lucky, I always had friends call to book me for intro flights at ungodly early times in the morning. I got stood up by Ella Vater and A. LeRon so many damn times...
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by PilotDAR »

A 172 does not have any airframe high temperature limitations, though of course, performance must be considered, and engine temps watched more carefully. If an operator wants to limit themselves, it's their plane, they can go ahead, but there's no certification reason to support high temps operating limits.
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pelmet
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by pelmet »

5x5 wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:07 pm Operational limits are set by the operator as they see fit. It doesn't really matter what anyone else feels is reasonable or not. In the marketplace when you find something not to your liking, simply go to another vendor/supplier that doesn't have that same annoyance and give them your business. If your curiousity really has to be satisfied, I'd suggest asking the particular operator rather than look for guesses and speculation from an anonymous internet forum.
You are correct but I think it is a good subject for discussion here to get an idea of what various schools do. Interesting that it may have something to do with the MCM of certain locations. If so, I would wonder why it would apply to some schools and not others.
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nbinont
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by nbinont »

Schools down south are quite happy flying at temperatures regularly at 35C-40C. No issue for the C172s & C152s. But that's bit warm without AC for me.
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ant_321
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by ant_321 »

Having flown a 152 on a 30+ day I don't think it's a bad idea. The 172 was fine though.
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7ECA
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by 7ECA »

I know the DA-20s have airframe temperature limits - some sort of a indicator that changes colour - see below:

Image

Other than that, there's really no reason why you'd ground aircraft on flyable days. Sure, performance will be shite, just keep the windows and vents wide open and you'll be fine.
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nightbird
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by nightbird »

At the school that I used to work it was at the instructor's discretion if you wanted to fly past 35 degrees or not(including humidex). We were on salary so most people would stay inside when it got that hot, but you could fly all day and melt your brain if you wanted to.
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maturepilot83
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by maturepilot83 »

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Last edited by maturepilot83 on Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by maturepilot83 »

maturepilot83 wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:44 am I instructed in the high thirties and as low as -25 C. Whatever got me another flight hour closer to the next step.
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by maturepilot83 »

I instructed in the high thirties and as low as -25 C. Whatever got me another flight hour closer to the next step.
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lhalliday
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by lhalliday »

My plane (Beech 23) has no specific high-temperature limit, but mentions that engine cooling has been demonstrated on a 100F day.

I notice the difference between 5C and 35C, both flight performance and engine readings.

...laura
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youhavecontrol
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Re: Flight School Warm Temp Cutoff

Post by youhavecontrol »

We fly as hot at 35 and as cold as -30, but often I'll strategically plan my day so I do groundwork and briefings in the hot afternoon and flights in the early morning and evening. Aircraft performance and structural temperature limitations are one thing, but I don't want to be stuck in a stupid flying greenhouse (DA20) if I don't have to, and my students happily agree. At least in the Seminole you can open the door on the ground while taxiing, but those stupid Diamonds absolutely BAKE while you're doing your run-up and ground checks.
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