Having trouble flaring?

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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by youhavecontrol »

You can't learn how to walk by reading a book, or certainly not on the advice on the internet. Same with flying. You need someone experienced along-side you.

I've been teaching people to land for almost five years now. As one of our school's supervising instructors, I often have to fix teaching mistakes and strange habits that our students picked-up. When students get nervous and start seeking advice, you'd be amazed the different 'theories' they learn from who knows where. They're just trying to figure out what they are doing wrong, but it's more the fault their instructor than anyone else.

A 'smooth pull' or a 'series of back-pressure,' where you aim for, how steep you approach, what your approach speed is... it all depends on the speed of the aircraft, the weight and balance, the type of landing you are doing, the wind conditions, the runway conditions, and the type of aircraft you are in.

You need to build judgement, not a template.

A person struggling to land a Diamond Eclipse might be getting advice from someone flying a Navajo.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by PilotDAR »

A person struggling to land a Diamond Eclipse might be getting advice from someone flying a Navajo.
Would that be a problem? The Navajo pilot might say to the Diamond pilot: "Read the flight manual, and fly it that way." 'Good advice! The Navajo pilot might say to the Diamond pilot: "During your practicing, some of your landings should be power off, to practice forced approaches, so learn to adjust your technique accordingly."

I agree that it's difficult to teach a technique like landing from a book, or from the internet, this must be taught first hand. However, if a new pilot is taking the time to read and research, that's a good thing (rather than getting better 'cause they practiced on MS FS), and though the reading can't impart certain skills, it can certainly dispel some erroneous thinking! In particular, pilots thinking that they can invent techniques contrary to the flight manual recommended technique!
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by youhavecontrol »

PilotDAR wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:28 am
Would that be a problem? The Navajo pilot might say to the Diamond pilot: "Read the flight manual, and fly it that way." 'Good advice!
But.. there's no landing technique published in the DA20-C1 flight manual. Nor should there be. Nor do I recall landing instructions published in any of the aircraft flight manuals I've used. There's configuration recommendations, such as flap settings and approach speeds, but nowhere will it tell you when to flare, where to aim, where to look, what your touch-down attitude should be, how much back-pressure to use or anything like that. Those are the things students actually struggle with... and the things people write varying opinions about.

The closest thing to written instruction on landing technique can be found in the Flight Training Manual, but even there, they keep the instructions general, knowing there's a large variety of aircraft with different landing techniques required. This is why I don't respond to a damaged aircraft with, "You need to read more." ..but instead, "Let's go do some circuits."
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by PilotDAR »

But.. there's no landing technique published in the DA20-C1 flight manual.
I admit that I have never flown a DA-20, and am unfamiliar with its flight manual. My only Diamond experience is the DA-42, and I have reviewed its flight manual with these questions in mind. The DA-42 flight manual states specific speeds and flap configurations, and states: "Higher approach speeds result in a significantly longer landing distance during flare". I view that more as cautionary, to remind the pilot that if they approach too fast, don't rely on the landing distance charts any more! Yes, I do note, that there is no specific "technique" for landing presented. In hindsight, perhaps this explains why, during my third flight test program in a DA-42, the instructor who was sent to check me out was insisting that I three point the plane on, to prevent banging the tail. I demonstrated a three point landing to him to satisfy him, and once on my own with it, landed it properly on the main wheels first the whole time.
Nor do I recall landing instructions published in any of the aircraft flight manuals I've used. There's configuration recommendations, such as flap settings and approach speeds, but nowhere will it tell you when to flare, where to aim, where to look, what your touch-down attitude should be,
In every Cessna flight manual I have, approach speeds and recommended flap settings are provided, and for tricycle Cessnas, the common phrase: touchdown should be made on the main wheels first..." That's touchdown attitude being recommended. It will not be possible to touch down a tricycle plane on the main wheels first, unless it has been flared for landing. The flare could be anywhere from "Oh my god!" late, to drag it in on the stall warning from 200 feet up, as long as you touch the main wheels first.

For the taildragger Cessna 170, the recommended touchdown attitude for a minimum run landing is: "Make a normal three point landing".

Following flight testing I accomplished on a modified Cessna Caravan, it was understood that special landing techniques should be used. The flight manual supplement I wrote stated:

"Though full stall landings have been demonstrated, pilots should operate the aircraft during takeoff and landing, with nose low attitudes to the greatest extent practical, with the greatest flap settings appropriate for the conditions."

Doing so would prevent damage to suspended equipment under the plane.

Of course, training is a vital element in pilot training, as the pilot must be trained to flare! Advice as to where to look and how to judge, is of course, an important element of training. I agree that much older aircraft tend to have less technique information in their flight manuals (if they even have one), that is from a time when training was everything, typically military. But it is important that today's pilot, and in particular a student pilot, read the authoritative information provided by the manufacturer/modifier as to how the plane is to be flown - after all, that's who it was written for! Much too often I'll be chatting with pilots who are flying aircraft for which I have provided an approved flight manual supplement with a modification on the aircraft. I'll casually ask if they've read the flight manual supplement, and the answer is usually "no", but there they are flying it, and not understanding the changed systems, techniques, or performance, which I have documented just for them. If you'd fly a STOL equipped Cessna 182 amphibian with a gross weight increase in accordance with the original Cessna flight manual for a 182, you'd get it wrong.

Read the flight manual.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by youhavecontrol »

PilotDAR wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:01 am

Of course, training is a vital element in pilot training, as the pilot must be trained to flare! Advice as to where to look and how to judge, is of course, an important element of training. I agree that much older aircraft tend to have less technique information in their flight manuals (if they even have one), that is from a time when training was everything, typically military. But it is important that today's pilot, and in particular a student pilot, read the authoritative information provided by the manufacturer/modifier as to how the plane is to be flown - after all, that's who it was written for! Much too often I'll be chatting with pilots who are flying aircraft for which I have provided an approved flight manual supplement with a modification on the aircraft. I'll casually ask if they've read the flight manual supplement, and the answer is usually "no", but there they are flying it, and not understanding the changed systems, techniques, or performance, which I have documented just for them. If you'd fly a STOL equipped Cessna 182 amphibian with a gross weight increase in accordance with the original Cessna flight manual for a 182, you'd get it wrong.

Read the flight manual.
It sounds like we both agree on the same things. There definitely can be exceptions to a general practice, as can be published in the flight manual, but for the average student flying standard aircraft looking for advice I cringe when someone writes a blanket statement on landing techniques. The internets are awful for that sort of thing!

On a side-note, I watched a pilot, doing his solo night re-currency circuits last weekend, porpoising a turbo Cessna 206. :shock: Not sure what he was flying before he got his hands on the 206.. but that freaked me out. Bouncing 4 times before coming to a stop.. I thought he was going to lose his nosewheel.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by PilotDAR »

Bouncing 4 times before coming to a stop.. I thought he was going to lose his nosewheel.
It's certainly happened. 206's seem a little more vulnerable to this error than other Cessnas. A blanket statement for landing tricycle airplanes: Don't allow the nosewheel to touch at all, until the main wheels are well established on the surface. The only tricycle type I've flown which tends to allow you to make a controlled landing on the nosewheel is a Twin Otter with full flaps. A lot of Twin Otters have had to have a "station 60" repair following a nosewheels landing.

If a tricycle airplane pilot is smoothly, gently trying to prevent the main wheels from touching, and thereafter, gently trying to prevent the nosewheel form touching, it was probably a good landing, though I admit, discussion of the techniques of the actual landing is thread drift from the technique of the flare.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by newt82 »

Go back to the basics, attitudes and movements. Nose down attitude transitions to the cruise attitude, then slight nose up attitude while focusing your eyes on the far end of the runway. Aim point and airspeed control are crucial components for setting up that stabilized approach. I find students that are having trouble with the landing transition are focusing on the runway just beyond the cowling and all the sudden they get the sensation of the ground rushing up so they flare early and high causing a bounce once the speed bleeds off. Sometimes it just best to go back to the practice area and review the basics. The simple things are all linked in the big scheme of things!
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by C.W.E. »

I have a question.

If you are doing aerial application on a field with trees on the approach and you have to apply the chemical at two feet above the crop do you look at the far end of the field to judge your flare?
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by HiFlyChick »

C.W.E. wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:32 am
Eyes to the end of the runway helps too when youre in the flare.
This advice has been around for years and I have never been able to figure out just what advantage looking into the far distance gives you for judging your relation to the the runway either in closure rate or height.

Can you please explain it to me?
I must confess, ., that I was surprised you asked this question because I thought that was how everyone did it... I guess we all use whatever makes sense to us when applied to our individual way of thinking. If I listen really closely, I can still hear my instructor's voice in my head "Eyes to the far end, eyes to the far end..." and it works for me. At night, if the landing lights are the type that spotlight directly in front of the nose, that's when it can be easy to fixate on the spot and not get the big picture.

Perhaps the best way to illustrate why this technique works for me is to to take the technique to the extreme and say that when you are parachuting, you gauge when to flare based on having your eyes on the horizon and our amazing brain will automatically allow us to tell when we will touch. I've only parachuted a few times, but learned this the hard way by forgetting on one of the jumps and looking down at the ground during the landing. The closing rate is much harder to judge when looking directly at it, vs. our natural ability to gauge a touch by the angle decreasing to (almost) 0. The end result was I anticipated ground contact, subconsciously reached with my right foot, thus locking my ankle and spraining it - lesson well learned!

Notice that I said an almost 0 angle, though, because even without being in a cockpit, we have our own built in eye-to-feet height :) We judge it naturally because all of our lives are lived with that eye-to-feet height, so when we start in an aircraft, our brain needs to learn a new eye-to-wheel height. After a few hundred/thousand hours, it becomes as natural as our eye-to-feet height.

What I'd like to ask you, ., is based on all of your heavy metal experience, is the eye-to-wheel height such a factor that you couldn't use this technique do you suppose (even if you had started out using it)? I've never flown anything bigger than a King Air, so I'm curious as to whether flying techniques that have become ingrained in me, and which I took for granted as being "how to do things" need to sometimes be discarded when going to airliners...
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by lownslow »

Flaring to land is overrated anyways.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

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Flaring to land is overrated anyways
Yes, someone was demonstrating this fact to me today, with three three point landings in a Cherokee as they passed (once) in front of me while I waited to backtrack today. I think that the first clue was that I was holding midway along the runway, and their first "landing" was right in front of me! Pilots, approach at the published approach speed for the aircraft!

And, the brakes are on the mainwheels, so if you're thinking that the brakes will be useful to help you stop, put the mainwheels on the ground, hold the nosewheel off!
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by C.W.E. »

What I'd like to ask you, ., is based on all of your heavy metal experience, is the eye-to-wheel height such a factor that you couldn't use this technique do you suppose (even if you had started out using it)? I've never flown anything bigger than a King Air, so I'm curious as to whether flying techniques that have become ingrained in me, and which I took for granted as being "how to do things" need to sometimes be discarded when going to airliners...
Hi:

I will try and answer your question as best I can.

Over the years I delved into how I personally learned to judge flare height and wheel height for touch down.

So I made notes on where I was looking when judging height.

I finally came to the conclusion that there was another factor at work in the process of judging height and that was closure rate.

I ended up with a method of where to look and what you are seeing at each phase of the approach and landing and once you have this picture it is easy judging height in any airplane.

For me the best airplane to use to learn judging height was the DC3 because making good wheel landings power off required good closure rate and height judgement.

When I teach height judgement I use the simple method of explaining to the student where to look during the approach and touch down and at the same time call out the exact height so the student can learn the picture as they do it.

Here is a post I made a few days ago in the flight training forum.

An article I wrote about landing some years ago.

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#1 Post by C.W.E. » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:05 pm

The point at which apparent movement ceases.

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O.K. I will try and describe how I teach correct height judgement for the flare and height judgement after the flare.

First the flare:

I use a definable point on the runway as the flare point, usually the first big hash marks and runway numbers. This is the aim point on final, during the last fifty feet in a small airplane the aim point will start to grow in size and also appear to spread out in your vision, at about twenty feet the picture will become quite clear that you are about to fly into the runway. It is at this point that I start the flare with most light aircraft.

Note:

Rather than describe to the student what I am seeing I count down the height from fifty feet to the flare and have them memorize what they observe up to and at the flare point, this avoids any misunderstanding of what I am trying to describe. By using this method the student will quickly imprint the picture that she / he is seeing.

Once the flare is started you then look straight ahead down the runway to the point where apparent movement of the runway markers stop.

What is................... " Apparent movement of the runway " ..........

There is a point ahead of the airplane where apparent movement of the runway towards you ceases. This point will change with the speed of the airplane and eye height above the runway.

For light aircraft that approach in the 50 to 70 knot speed envelope the apparent movement of the runway,,, runway marks, will be approximately five hundred feet ahead of the airplane.

That is the distance ahead of the airplane that your centre of sight should be aimed at. This will give you the proper picture that will allow you to best judge height.

The reason that this works is you can "see" the runway get closer in your peripheral vision as the runway movement close to the airplane changes. Also you can "see" the far end of the runway in the top of your peripheral vision, this is your attitude guide that allows you to change the attitude as speed and lift decays.

Ideally the airplane should contact the runway in the attitude that the stall occurs. ( Except wheel landings in taildraggers. )

If the nose blocks out your view ahead as you increase the nose up attitude during the hold off all you need do is move your head and sight line to the side and look along the side of the nose at the runway still using the same distance ahead that gives the picture that you need. Where apparent movement stops.

Note as you slow down the runway movement picture moves progressively closer. ( About three to five hundred feet ahead is just about right at touch down.


I have an excellent movie that was taken at Airbus Industries during my A320 training and I use it when describing what to look for when determining where the apparent runway movement stops. The beauty of the movie is I can stop it and show the point on the runway where this occurs, then start it up again.

Also the movie is perfect for the flare picture, the A320 approaches at a higher speed than a light aircraft but the picture remains the same when looking at the flare point, it just happens faster. ( oh by the way you don't actually flare an A320 like you do a Bug Smasher but the height judgement is the same. ( aided by the computer voice giving you exact height.

I am willing to keep answering any and all questions about how I teach height and speed judgement, all I wish to do is make flying safer and easier for those who fly for the love of it.

My system works because I have been perfecting it for fifty years and I used to teach crop dusting where if you do not know how to accurately judge height and speed you die.

So if you all want me to keep explaining my method I am willing to type until everyone understands how I do it.

By the way:::

I use a camcorder for all my advanced flight training, when the student fu..s up it is easy to review it right after the flight and explain where it started to go wrong and how to prevent repeating the fu.. up
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by PilotDAR »

For me the best airplane to use to learn judging height was the DC3
'Could be ., though the perception challenge with DC-3's is that as you lift the tail on takeoff, you go down! You can't use the stationary three point attitude or visual to calibrate your eye height, you gotta do it on the roll!
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

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C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:42 pm
...I finally came to the conclusion that there was another factor at work in the process of judging height and that was closure rate....
Although you express it differently, I'm not sure that we're necessarily doing things differently, .. Obviously 500 ft down the runway isn't exactly the horizon, but it isn't immediately in front of the nose, either, I see where you mention your peripheral vision to get the big picture of how close you are to the ground, too, so we're doing the same thing essentially.

And I just had a flashback to my instructing days...

Funny you mention judging closure rate, because nowadays I'm just looking for a lovely landing for the paying pax, but I remember when I was instructing and had to develop the sense of "will the aircraft break if I allow this to continue". Eventually you have to allow the student to just land the plane and see that he/she will adequately correct the mistakes when you aren't there, but I can recall having that dropping elevator feeling and quickly deciding that the airplane wouldn't be damaged but muttered under my breath "Oh this isn't gonna be pretty...!" :)
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by C.W.E. »

You can't use the stationary three point attitude or visual to calibrate your eye height, you gotta do it on the roll!
Yes for sure, in the three point attitude it is quite a bit higher than in the level attitude and the R4D-8 is even higher.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by C.W.E. »

Although you express it differently, I'm not sure that we're necessarily doing things differently, .. Obviously 500 ft down the runway isn't exactly the horizon, but it isn't immediately in front of the nose, either,
How we express things can make a big difference when teaching something like height judgement HiFlyChick, and closure rate is very important in judging when to change the attitude in the final approach, just think of the timing difference between a Cessna 152 and a twin engine airplane approach speeds and the significance of closure rate becomes clear.

When you were a flight instructor did your teachers explain the importance of closure rate when judging when to start changing attitude?

Telling the student to look at the far end of the runway started back in the late eighties when for some unknown reason some instructor thought they had found something new and better to teach.

Unfortunately they did not take into consideration the simple fact that the further away you look the less shallow the angle becomes, therefore the more shallow your angle of sight becomes the more difficult it becomes to see a change in height.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

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clairvoyant wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:02 pm
I will have to stray the subject a bit.
Don't you find SR22, DA40, DA42, or PA44 flare a bit flat compared to C172?
I am nervous of the tail strike risk sometime.
How do you flare proof any landing? Thank You
I just started to fly the DA40, and yes they definitely do flare a lot flatter then the C172. What I was instructed to do is to get the plane just above the runway, then just establish the normal cruise attitude and wait for the airplane to settle onto the runway. When I set that up the way I liked and glanced at the AI it was showing just over 10 degrees nose up.

I found where I got myself into a mind game was deciding when to flare. While getting checked out I confidently waited until I was *just* above the runway before flaring, and I greased my first one just as well as i've ever landed anything. When I took it solo, I found I lost some of my nerve and was flaring too high, and found when the plane settled it would do a mini bounce off the mains and float for a few more seconds before settling down for good.

Take away is get it very close to the ground, then just gently bring it to the cruise attitude, hold that, and it lands like a dream.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by PilotDAR »

Take away is get it very close to the ground, then just gently bring it to the cruise attitude, hold that, and it lands like a dream
Well the nose may be a little higher than "cruise attitude", but otherwise, yes! Hold the plane in an attitude at your approach speed, in which it is not descending, while in ground effect, reduce power, and, without raising the nose more, as it slows, it will settle on gently.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by C.W.E. »

When I set that up the way I liked and glanced at the AI it was showing just over 10 degrees nose up.
You should not be looking at the attitude indicator during the landing, your attitude is determined outside reference.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by Peregrine »

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:05 pm
When I set that up the way I liked and glanced at the AI it was showing just over 10 degrees nose up.
You should not be looking at the attitude indicator during the landing, your attitude is determined outside reference.
Just that one time I was curious what my "that should be about right" judgement translated to, don't read too much into it.
I would have thought it went without saying you don't have your eyes in the cockpit while flaring but apparently not.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by C.W.E. »

Just that one time I was curious what my "that should be about right" judgement translated to, don't read too much into it.
I would have thought it went without saying you don't have your eyes in the cockpit while flaring but apparently not.

No problem.

Of all the issues I found when I was doing advanced flight training the habit of excessive looking at the instruments during take off, climb out, approach and landing was the most difficult to correct.

And as the years passed the initial training just got worse and the habit did also.

Of course when the instructors are really still students experience wise that is to be expected.
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by pelmet »

Another random internet bit of advice that makes sense, at least for those learning....

"I was taught to think of the landing in two parts. The first is the roundout, where you level the plane attitude parallel with the runway. The second part is to then to ease back on the yoke to keep the nose higher than the main wheels, and wait for the energy to dissipate and the plane to land."

Actually, you might want to make it three parts. Power off further back(you will figure out when but it could be earlier than you think it might be), then the above.....
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Re: Having trouble flaring?

Post by Beefitarian »

Schooner69A wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:54 pm
Fret not; keep flying. It will all come together. (But you do have to fly more than once a month...) :smt003
Aww, man... I'll never get it to come together. :(



I have been able to do it several times a year lately. :rolleyes:
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