Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

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leah23232
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Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by leah23232 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:29 am

Hello,
All I ever hear about is Cornwall for Multi/IFR and I was wondering if anyone had any other recommendations or info on any other schools. For example, PRO IFR in Vancouver or Moncton Flight college. I want to go to the place with the best instructors and training, not necessarily the fastest.
Thank you
P.S. No judgement on anyone who has gone to Cornwall, I just feel like I need my training to be more in detail as I might not pick up on things as quickly as successful Cornwall students
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Alcoholism
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by Alcoholism » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:31 pm

sorry. Cornwall is the best place. Suggest another career
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FL007
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by FL007 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:42 am

leah23232 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:29 am
Hello,
All I ever hear about is Cornwall for Multi/IFR and I was wondering if anyone had any other recommendations or info on any other schools. For example, PRO IFR in Vancouver or Moncton Flight college. I want to go to the place with the best instructors and training, not necessarily the fastest.
Thank you
P.S. No judgement on anyone who has gone to Cornwall, I just feel like I need my training to be more in detail as I might not pick up on things as quickly as successful Cornwall students
Cornwall is the best place. It's only the fastest if you want, if you want to spend more money you can stay there as long as you want.. They teach you everything, and are realistic in that you probably won't be flying single IFR in the next week after you finish.

That being said afterwards I worked the ramp for a year plus and forgot all the little IFR rules Cornwall taught me anyway. So was glad I got the best price for that useless ticket.
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B208
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by B208 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:00 pm

Cornwall teaches to the test, you will learn how to pass the ride, (with their in house examiner), but not much more. They are a cheap way to get the sticker for your Aviation Document Booklet, but not much else.

The quality of your training is going to depend more on the instructor than it will on the school. With that in mind you are better off looking at a school near a major centre, (like Ottawa). Many of the schools there have instructors that are experienced airline pilots who have come back to teach a bit of ME IFR because they enjoy teaching. In Eastern Ontario, Ottawa Aviation Services are currently the only school with a ME. Rockcliffe Flying Club plans to have a ME on line within the next month or so. I’m not sure about Smiths Falls. There is also the First Nations Flying School near Belleville, (not sure if they do ME IFR).
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FL007
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by FL007 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:29 am

B208 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:00 pm
Cornwall teaches to the test, you will learn how to pass the ride, (with their in house examiner), but not much more. They are a cheap way to get the sticker for your Aviation Document Booklet, but not much else.

The quality of your training is going to depend more on the instructor than it will on the school. With that in mind you are better off looking at a school near a major centre, (like Ottawa). Many of the schools there have instructors that are experienced airline pilots who have come back to teach a bit of ME IFR because they enjoy teaching. In Eastern Ontario, Ottawa Aviation Services are currently the only school with a ME. Rockcliffe Flying Club plans to have a ME on line within the next month or so. I’m not sure about Smiths Falls. There is also the First Nations Flying School near Belleville, (not sure if they do ME IFR).
Absolutely not true that Cornwall just teaches the test. They touched on literally every part of the cap Gen when I did my test, albeit quite a while ago. Whether I retained that knowledge or not was my fault, and it was up to me what I wanted to learn.

You go to a place with 1 ME aircraft and you might have the worst ME experience of your life. Friends I knew in Ottawa had their training stopped for 5 months when the only a/c had a maintenance event. This is not uncommon.

Now you either go somewhere else and find the exact aircraft you were training on or you wait the months it takes which costs you way more getting to where you were at before, or you start on a new aircraft type and relearn all the limitations of that aircraft and try to pick up where you left off.

If you're concerned about Cornwall's training and don't care about money you should slow the training down and pay more. At least they have a bunch of the same aircraft so you know you can consistently train. They're not going to say no to more money.

Just good luck scheduling the only ME aircraft at a busy flight school. Fingers crossed it doesn't break.
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ant_321
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by ant_321 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:39 am

B208 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:00 pm
Cornwall teaches to the test, you will learn how to pass the ride, (with their in house examiner), but not much more. They are a cheap way to get the sticker for your Aviation Document Booklet, but not much else.

The quality of your training is going to depend more on the instructor than it will on the school. With that in mind you are better off looking at a school near a major centre, (like Ottawa). Many of the schools there have instructors that are experienced airline pilots who have come back to teach a bit of ME IFR because they enjoy teaching. In Eastern Ontario, Ottawa Aviation Services are currently the only school with a ME. Rockcliffe Flying Club plans to have a ME on line within the next month or so. I’m not sure about Smiths Falls. There is also the First Nations Flying School near Belleville, (not sure if they do ME IFR).
+1.

When I was an instructor the only multi engine airplane the school had went down and many students (including a family member) went to Cornwall to get their IFR. When they returned I was mind boggled at how little practical IFR knowledge they had been taught. My family member that went there said it was basically press direct to a fix, hold at the fix, shoot an rnav and an ils and repeat a couple times and then do the ride. Basically no training on any traditional nav aids. That being said, if you’re in a hurry to get the sticker in your book and have a job waiting for you go to Cornwall and get it done. Just make sure you do some self study once you get back.
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clairvoyant
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by clairvoyant » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:20 pm

I am curious on how they teach a RNAV approach especially LNAV. Off course with LPV/WAAS or ILS, you have the glide slope and an auto-pilot, so no worry there.

See my attached file for RNAV RWY 10 for example.
I heard instructors there wanted students to descent from whatever the top of descent (TOD) all the way to minimum then circle to land on the other side while simulating OEI.
Is that true? Based on that approach plate, I would descent to 3700 (MSA) to ADSIV, then descent to 1800 from ADSIV to KAPIX. 1.4 NM from GOVAK, I would reduce throttle to 14 MP and trim which should give me a nice 500 fpm descent rate at 90 KIAS or so to the minimum (IGVIR).
What do you think, folks?
I would also be very nervous if the instructors wanted me to circle to land on the other side while simulating OEI with full drags (gears down and 25 flap).
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B208
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by B208 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:04 pm

FL007 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:29 am
B208 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:00 pm
Cornwall teaches to the test, you will learn how to pass the ride, (with their in house examiner), but not much more. They are a cheap way to get the sticker for your Aviation Document Booklet, but not much else.

The quality of your training is going to depend more on the instructor than it will on the school. With that in mind you are better off looking at a school near a major centre, (like Ottawa). Many of the schools there have instructors that are experienced airline pilots who have come back to teach a bit of ME IFR because they enjoy teaching. In Eastern Ontario, Ottawa Aviation Services are currently the only school with a ME. Rockcliffe Flying Club plans to have a ME on line within the next month or so. I’m not sure about Smiths Falls. There is also the First Nations Flying School near Belleville, (not sure if they do ME IFR).
Absolutely not true that Cornwall just teaches the test. They touched on literally every part of the cap Gen when I did my test, albeit quite a while ago. Whether I retained that knowledge or not was my fault, and it was up to me what I wanted to learn.

You go to a place with 1 ME aircraft and you might have the worst ME experience of your life. Friends I knew in Ottawa had their training stopped for 5 months when the only a/c had a maintenance event. This is not uncommon.

Now you either go somewhere else and find the exact aircraft you were training on or you wait the months it takes which costs you way more getting to where you were at before, or you start on a new aircraft type and relearn all the limitations of that aircraft and try to pick up where you left off.

If you're concerned about Cornwall's training and don't care about money you should slow the training down and pay more. At least they have a bunch of the same aircraft so you know you can consistently train. They're not going to say no to more money.

Just good luck scheduling the only ME aircraft at a busy flight school. Fingers crossed it doesn't break.
I based the information in my post on talking with a number of Cornwall grads and the places that hired them. The universal theme was that the flight syllabus was strictly teaching to the test; One ILS, one LPV and one hold. You will get your ticket, but you may not be prepared to head out and actually operate IFR.
You have a good point that your training can get delayed due to aircraft availability issues. That risk exists at any busy school; take one aircraft out of the mix at a multi aircraft school and it will delay everyone’s training.
I repeat my original point that the quality and efficiency of your training will be more closely tied to your instructor than the school.
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B208
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by B208 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:16 pm

clairvoyant wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:20 pm
I am curious on how they teach a RNAV approach especially LNAV. Off course with LPV/WAAS or ILS, you have the glide slope and an auto-pilot, so no worry there.

See my attached file for RNAV RWY 10 for example.
I heard instructors there wanted students to descent from whatever the top of descent (TOD) all the way to minimum then circle to land on the other side while simulating OEI.
Is that true? Based on that approach plate, I would descent to 3700 (MSA) to ADSIV, then descent to 1800 from ADSIV to KAPIX. 1.4 NM from GOVAK, I would reduce throttle to 14 MP and trim which should give me a nice 500 fpm descent rate at 90 KIAS or so to the minimum (IGVIR).
What do you think, folks?
I would also be very nervous if the instructors wanted me to circle to land on the other side while simulating OEI with full drags (gears down and 25 flap).
I see no reason not to do a CDA approach, even with an engine out. I would hold off on flaps until established final after completing the circling maneuver. The reason being is that you want to be certain that you will be able to level off at minimums, especially if you are circling.
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by FL007 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:30 pm

B208 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:16 pm
clairvoyant wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:20 pm
I am curious on how they teach a RNAV approach especially LNAV. Off course with LPV/WAAS or ILS, you have the glide slope and an auto-pilot, so no worry there.

See my attached file for RNAV RWY 10 for example.
I heard instructors there wanted students to descent from whatever the top of descent (TOD) all the way to minimum then circle to land on the other side while simulating OEI.
Is that true? Based on that approach plate, I would descent to 3700 (MSA) to ADSIV, then descent to 1800 from ADSIV to KAPIX. 1.4 NM from GOVAK, I would reduce throttle to 14 MP and trim which should give me a nice 500 fpm descent rate at 90 KIAS or so to the minimum (IGVIR).
What do you think, folks?
I would also be very nervous if the instructors wanted me to circle to land on the other side while simulating OEI with full drags (gears down and 25 flap).
I see no reason not to do a CDA approach, even with an engine out. I would hold off on flaps until established final after completing the circling maneuver. The reason being is that you want to be certain that you will be able to level off at minimums, especially if you are circling.
exactly, circling is just like a circuit, really. You must have contact with the ground to circle, you're basically in the circuit. You shouldn't drop flaps until you're about to turn base at least, gear on final. Note: In general, I'm on an airliner, but same principal applies.

As with training mentioned above, I remembered doing NDB approaches, just not on the flight test.. Which I'm glad I didn't have to do, as they're unrealistic in the working world. SCDA RNAVs and ILS are the norms in the airline world now, even the bush flying world all the very remote spots I flew to all had RNAV approaches, and brought you much lower than NDB approaches on the same runway.
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canadianpilot101
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by canadianpilot101 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:27 pm

WWFCs pretty good. do most of your IFR on the C172RG, and then prep for flight test on the piper seminole.
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ant_321
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by ant_321 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:55 am

FL007 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:30 pm
B208 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:16 pm
clairvoyant wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:20 pm
I am curious on how they teach a RNAV approach especially LNAV. Off course with LPV/WAAS or ILS, you have the glide slope and an auto-pilot, so no worry there.

See my attached file for RNAV RWY 10 for example.
I heard instructors there wanted students to descent from whatever the top of descent (TOD) all the way to minimum then circle to land on the other side while simulating OEI.
Is that true? Based on that approach plate, I would descent to 3700 (MSA) to ADSIV, then descent to 1800 from ADSIV to KAPIX. 1.4 NM from GOVAK, I would reduce throttle to 14 MP and trim which should give me a nice 500 fpm descent rate at 90 KIAS or so to the minimum (IGVIR).
What do you think, folks?
I would also be very nervous if the instructors wanted me to circle to land on the other side while simulating OEI with full drags (gears down and 25 flap).
I see no reason not to do a CDA approach, even with an engine out. I would hold off on flaps until established final after completing the circling maneuver. The reason being is that you want to be certain that you will be able to level off at minimums, especially if you are circling.
exactly, circling is just like a circuit, really. You must have contact with the ground to circle, you're basically in the circuit. You shouldn't drop flaps until you're about to turn base at least, gear on final. Note: In general, I'm on an airliner, but same principal applies.

As with training mentioned above, I remembered doing NDB approaches, just not on the flight test.. Which I'm glad I didn't have to do, as they're unrealistic in the working world. SCDA RNAVs and ILS are the norms in the airline world now, even the bush flying world all the very remote spots I flew to all had RNAV approaches, and brought you much lower than NDB approaches on the same runway.
I did plenty of VOR and NDB approaches at my first job and it wasn’t all that long ago. The KLN90 isn’t all that reliable.
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by FL007 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:32 am

ant_321 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:55 am
FL007 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:30 pm
B208 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:16 pm

I see no reason not to do a CDA approach, even with an engine out. I would hold off on flaps until established final after completing the circling maneuver. The reason being is that you want to be certain that you will be able to level off at minimums, especially if you are circling.
exactly, circling is just like a circuit, really. You must have contact with the ground to circle, you're basically in the circuit. You shouldn't drop flaps until you're about to turn base at least, gear on final. Note: In general, I'm on an airliner, but same principal applies.

As with training mentioned above, I remembered doing NDB approaches, just not on the flight test.. Which I'm glad I didn't have to do, as they're unrealistic in the working world. SCDA RNAVs and ILS are the norms in the airline world now, even the bush flying world all the very remote spots I flew to all had RNAV approaches, and brought you much lower than NDB approaches on the same runway.
I did plenty of VOR and NDB approaches at my first job and it wasn’t all that long ago. The KLN90 isn’t all that reliable.
That is an operational issue. If you can't get in at 500 over rnav minimums then your company should invest in 430s to reduce the minimums and also future proof their fleet as they are being phased out.

I can do ndb approaches, but why would you want to, they're not 100% accurate, they're high, there's errors associated (which are not fault detected) unlike rnav approaches.
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ant_321
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by ant_321 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:46 am

FL007 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:32 am
ant_321 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:55 am
FL007 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:30 pm


exactly, circling is just like a circuit, really. You must have contact with the ground to circle, you're basically in the circuit. You shouldn't drop flaps until you're about to turn base at least, gear on final. Note: In general, I'm on an airliner, but same principal applies.

As with training mentioned above, I remembered doing NDB approaches, just not on the flight test.. Which I'm glad I didn't have to do, as they're unrealistic in the working world. SCDA RNAVs and ILS are the norms in the airline world now, even the bush flying world all the very remote spots I flew to all had RNAV approaches, and brought you much lower than NDB approaches on the same runway.
I did plenty of VOR and NDB approaches at my first job and it wasn’t all that long ago. The KLN90 isn’t all that reliable.
That is an operational issue. If you can't get in at 500 over rnav minimums then your company should invest in 430s to reduce the minimums and also future proof their fleet as they are being phased out.

I can do ndb approaches, but why would you want to, they're not 100% accurate, they're high, there's errors associated (which are not fault detected) unlike rnav approaches.
The reality is many people’s first jobs will be flying airplanes with old clapped out avionics. Good for you if you walked right into a well equipped airplane. I’m glad I didn’t to be honest. It was fun to shoot the occasional full procedure ndb or DME arc to a VOR approach.
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clairvoyant
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by clairvoyant » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:24 am

Folks, we seem to establish the general consensus (see the attached).
So, back to the original poster, where will be the best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??
You can PM me. Thank You
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NearNorthAviation
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Re: Best place for Multi/IFR that is NOT Cornwall??

Post by NearNorthAviation » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:23 am

Near North Aviation has just opened up an FTU at the John C. Munro Hamilton International Airport in the JetPort building. Give us a call at 905-679-5577. As a new operation, we haven't built up a student load yet so we have aircraft available basically anytime you want.

We have a Twin Comanche with fresh engines being added to our OC shortly. Once up and going we will have one retired and two current airline pilots on staff.
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