IFR Certified Plane

[intoflying]

I'm looking to purchase a plane with IFR capability and/or certified.

Some say it's enough to have IFR capability, while others say it must be certified. Who's right?

Also what's the cost of taking a non-IFR plane and converting it to IFR if anyone has done this.

[ahramin]

They are both right. You need 40 hours of instrument time for your IFR rating. Of that 40 hours, none is required to be in an IFR aircraft. There is an IFR cross country flight requirement so you will need an IFR aircraft for that at least.

However, the flight test has to be done in an IFR and I don't think you'll have much of a chance of passing it if you've only flown an IFR equipped aircraft a couple times up to that point. You need to demonstrate a precision approach, which you will not have done in your VOR only equipped aircraft.

Looking back in my logbook, 25 hours of the 40 required were done in a VFR only aircraft. If your intention is to buy a cheap aircraft, fly your hours and then sell it, you should buy a VFR aircraft and rent an IFR one for that portion. Much cheaper. As for converting a VFR aircraft to IFR, it's likely to exceed the purchase price of the aircraft. I just did it for a homebuilt owner: $30k. Much more for a certified aircraft.

If you are looking for a cheap aircraft for your commercial, there is a BD4 and a Tailwind for sale on this site. Both would be very cheap time builders if the engines are in good shape.

[ahramin]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=128234

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=130201

[CpnCrunch]

Also, now the rules have changed slightly and you need to demonstrate a GPS approach for your flight test.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... .htm#toc34

"The candidate will demonstrate one RNP APCH approach".

There is an exemption for renewals if you are doing the renewal in your own privately owned plane, but that doesn't apply to the initial flight test AFAIK.

[Aviatard]

"The candidate will demonstrate one RNP APCH approach".

There is an exemption for renewals if you are doing the renewal in your own privately owned plane, but that doesn't apply to the initial flight test AFAIK.

I don't see where there is an exemption. It's not mentioned in the Flight Test Guide: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... 5.htm#toc8

nor in the Advisory Circular No. 401-004 Conduct of Instrument Proficiency Checks (IPC): https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviati ... 1-004.html

I know that COPA was trying to get this exemption in place, but I don't see that it's happened yet.

EDIT: Spoke too soon. It seems that TC has authorized the exemption in an email (!):

https://copanational.org/en/2018/03/01/ ... equipment/

Seems like a strange way of making rule changes, when it's just an email, and not an Advisory Circular or an CARS change, or and amendment to the Flight Test Guide.

[photofly]

There's no IFR certification for an aircraft, as such. Some models are not approved in their type certificate for flight in IMC (DA20 comes to mind) but that's an IMC thing and not an IFR thing.

What you're talking about is an aircraft equipped for IFR flight. It's really only a GPS installation that needs special attention. For training and examination purposes you need either an older (non WAAS) approach-approved GPS plus a NAV/COM with ILS, or a newer GPS that includes NAV/COM/ILS functionality. (The latter will be much cheaper to install as you don't need to bother with annunciation and switching.)

The GPS will need an STC that lists the aircraft model into which it is to be installed (to avoid the need for Transport Canada flight testing) and the paperwork should include an approved Flight Manual Supplement.

These days I would look at the Avidyne IFD440/540 or Garmin GTN650, along with the G5 display. The very simple installation (three wires) between the G5 and the GTN makes the installation much quicker and therefore cheaper than with other older GPS units that have a tonne of analog signals to interface to your switching and display.

I wouldn't want to undertake any flights in real IMC with just that - but that's enough for training and to take an instrument flight test.

[OldInstructor]

A single engine IFR is of little value for a commercial pilot. If you are interested in eventually working in a multi-engine two crew operation consider a basic aircraft that you can use up to the commercial and build up time for the IFR. Go to a school for the combined multi-engine and IFR in a twin.

[ahramin]

There are significant savings to be had by completing most or all of the 40 hours of instrument time in a single before doing the multi engine and group 1 IFR.

[CpnCrunch]

You can buy an IFR multi cheaper than a VFR 172 these days. Even Navajos are dirt cheap. The question is: how much does it cost for maintenance and insurance?

[ahramin]

I think we've already determined that we're looking for minimum total cost, not capital costs, and that minimum total costs would be buying a very cheap VFR aircraft and renting an IFR one for that portion.

Unless we find a very cheap IFR aircraft out there.

[photofly]

It's possible to add an IFR approach certified GPS for about $5k, all in, if you choose carefilly.

[PilotDAR]

....And it's possible to remove equipment you may have installed, and not sell it onward with the "old" plane, when you upgrade to the next one. For what I have seen, most 1970's and later GA planes, are usually fairly close to meeting the IFR equipment requirements, other than avionics, which often should be upgraded anyway... For both planes I have owned and sold, I kept back the avionics, or substituted lesser value avionics. You'd be surprised the newer avionics which fit into some older trays, though I think the newer paradigm shift is passing that by recently.

[Oldguystrtn2fly]

It's possible to add an IFR approach certified GPS for about $5k, all in, if you choose carefilly.

Care to elaborate?

[photofly]

kLN90B with tray and antenna on eBay for US$800.
Mid Continent MD40 indicator (includes required CDI, Nice-to-have-but-not-required OBS (depending on model), and required MSG, WPT, APR indicator lights) on eBay for $200.

That leaves you about CAD$3000 for recertification, a very modest custom wiring loom (a retired Avionics tech was advertising on here last week for this service), and installation.

IF you pick up an MD40 without the OBS you only need about six wires between it and the GPS: left/right, flag, and the lights. So the wiring loom is maybe three hours work?

Installation means fixing the antenna, tray and display, installing the premade loom between them, wiring in the power to a new circuit breaker ($20), and splicing into the lighting bus. It would be nice to add the audio warning output from the GPS into the audio panel too (one wire). So not a big installation effort. Do it at annual time when the interior is stripped out and routing the antenna cable is easier.

Note the installation is not considered specialized work under Schedule II to CAR571, as long as you interface it to only the intercom as described, so any AME can do the installation. No need to visit an avionics shop.

Finally the paperwork: I didn’t check if there’s an approved model list for the KLN90B or not with a flight manual supplement prototype. If not, that might be a few $$$ for a test flight. (In that case I’d pick a different GPS).

By adding a new indicator and NOT interfacing to your existing OBS/CDI or HSI you save a ton of wiring, switching and annunciation that would otherwise mean a rewire of your Avionics stack and is $$$$$ to install.

If you’re thinking of doing it, read this too:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 08-954.htm

And this:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 03-978.htm