Ratings in what order?

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Homeless Dog
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Ratings in what order?

Post by Homeless Dog » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:05 am

After completing PPL if you cant afford to fly often what would be the best way to spend time and money flying if you plan to eventually work towards a commercial license?
slowly work towards ratings and in what order? or Solo and get more seat time and when you have the money available then work towards ratings.
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broken_slinky
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by broken_slinky » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:18 am

Do your night and IFR, the hours count towards your CPL and the hood time for your IFR automatically gets you OTT. May want to wait until the fall to start your night hours unless your a night owl. Just my $0.02 and mileage may vary.
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Prairie Highway
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by Prairie Highway » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:48 am

One thing to keep in mind about starting your IFR right away after finishing your PPL is the PIC cross country hour requirement. You’ll require 50 hours of it, a portion of which you would have picked up during your CPL 300 nm cross country, so if you do the IFR before the CPL you’ll end up flying around 8-10 more hours than you would have if you’d done the CPL first.

I second the night rating suggestion. If there was a piece of advice that I regret not taking more to heart, it was to do all my time building at night. It can become a serious pain in the butt if your work is typically day-time ops and you need just that bit more of night to get your ATPL signed off...
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digits_
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by digits_ » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:05 am

Prairie Highway wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:48 am
One thing to keep in mind about starting your IFR right away after finishing your PPL is the PIC cross country hour requirement. You’ll require 50 hours of it, a portion of which you would have picked up during your CPL 300 nm cross country, so if you do the IFR before the CPL you’ll end up flying around 8-10 more hours than you would have if you’d done the CPL first.
Huh? Not sure why you would end up with 10 hours more?
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Prairie Highway
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by Prairie Highway » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:43 am

Correct me if you don’t like my logic:

Typically most people finish the commercial with the 50 PIC cross country requirement (for the IFR rating) already met... so if the individual in question had to meet the 50 hour requirement without having done his CPL, and therefor not having done the required CPL 300 NM cross country ( which if you’re doing it in a 172 is probably 8-10 hours or so), then he’ll end up with more cross country time in the end.

That versus doing the CPL first, having the 300 NM hours as part of what makes up his 50 hour PIC cross country requirement.
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digits_
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by digits_ » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:13 pm

You can always do your 300 NM as part of your 50 PIC cross country. Even without having passed the CPL written or flight test.

Just because someone hasn't "done" his CPL, doesn't mean he hasn't done a 300 NM cross country.
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by Grey_Wolf » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:43 pm

I'd suggest similar to the above,

Night Rating
Cross-Country Build Up Time (25 minimum at night, should you want to pursue an ATPL later down the line, and the 300 nm for the CPL)
Instrument Rating
Multi-Engine Rating
Commercial Licence
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Prairie Highway
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by Prairie Highway » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:31 pm

digits_ wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:13 pm
You can always do your 300 NM as part of your 50 PIC cross country. Even without having passed the CPL written or flight test.

Just because someone hasn't "done" his CPL, doesn't mean he hasn't done a 300 NM cross country.
True, as long as he realizes that he will have to do at least part of the CPL syllabus as his instructor will have to have confidence in him for the 300, and then will have to sign him out solo specifically for that purpose.
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C-GKNT
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by C-GKNT » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:21 pm

Grey_Wolf wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:43 pm
I'd suggest similar to the above,

Night Rating
Cross-Country Build Up Time (25 minimum at night, should you want to pursue an ATPL later down the line, and the 300 nm for the CPL)
Instrument Rating
Multi-Engine Rating
Commercial Licence
Unless you have access to a twin or have a specific need for a multi-engine rating, I wouldn't bother with it until you actually have a need for it. At $300+/hour for a twin and instructor it is very expensive and your money can be better spent elsewhere. It is not a particularly difficult rating and when you need it, it can be done in a less than week with the Mult-IFR taking a bit longer. In my experience, the skill set learned and recognition (by insurance underwriters for example) of a CPL is more useful even if you only fly privately.

Glenn
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digits_
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by digits_ » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:23 pm

Prairie Highway wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:31 pm
digits_ wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:13 pm
You can always do your 300 NM as part of your 50 PIC cross country. Even without having passed the CPL written or flight test.

Just because someone hasn't "done" his CPL, doesn't mean he hasn't done a 300 NM cross country.
True, as long as he realizes that he will have to do at least part of the CPL syllabus as his instructor will have to have confidence in him for the 300, and then will have to sign him out solo specifically for that purpose.
Not required. He has a ppl, rents or buys a plane and flies 300 NM. No instructor or instructor confidence required. Every PPL should be able to fly 300 NM.
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by KenoraPilot » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:33 pm

It all depends on what you want to do with your license in the end.

I would suggest:
1) Night (then do all your solo time building as Night, Cross-country PIC which will ace your ATPL requirements in the future)

2) Multi (never expires, gives you a solid command of the twin before throwing IFR into it)

3) Float (if you want to go do float flying commercially (if not avoid it because its expensive and won't help if you don't want to fly floats)
Float flying was the best, most fun filled and best learning experience I've ever had.

4) Multi-IFR (do as much single engine IFR training you can during your CPL and as much SIM time as you can because Twin IFR is mucho much $$$$) I would save Multi-IFR until you're close to landing a job or applying for a job that requires it. Once you have it and do recurrent PPC's its always valid. I wouldn't do it early early as its very expensive and you don't want to forget all that knowledge while you wait for a commercial job.


If you think you want to fly for a career (airline etc). Take a look at the ATPL requirements and make sure you tick all those boxes off while you're time building towards your CPL. Once you have a job as an FO and want to be upgraded but need an ATPL, going back to get some night x-country pic is very expensive. (A lot of Jazz FO's have this issue currently)
My 2 cents: if you're comfortable in the circuit and your upper air-work stuff is good, spend all of your time building at night x-country PIC. That's the most valuable time you can have.
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Prairie Highway
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by Prairie Highway » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:58 pm

digits_ wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:23 pm
Prairie Highway wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:31 pm
digits_ wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:13 pm
You can always do your 300 NM as part of your 50 PIC cross country. Even without having passed the CPL written or flight test.

Just because someone hasn't "done" his CPL, doesn't mean he hasn't done a 300 NM cross country.
True, as long as he realizes that he will have to do at least part of the CPL syllabus as his instructor will have to have confidence in him for the 300, and then will have to sign him out solo specifically for that purpose.
Not required. He has a ppl, rents or buys a plane and flies 300 NM. No instructor or instructor confidence required. Every PPL should be able to fly 300 NM.
It seems I am wrong! I’ve always been under the impression that the solo time towards things like the 300 had to be under the supervision of an instructor, but after this thread and looking through the CARs I can’t find anything that says that’s the case. Learn something new every day...
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ahramin
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by ahramin » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:31 pm

I think it has to be in the PTR, but it certainly doesn't need to be supervised.
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Daigo
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by Daigo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:02 pm

Prairie Highway wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:58 pm
digits_ wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:23 pm
Prairie Highway wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:31 pm


True, as long as he realizes that he will have to do at least part of the CPL syllabus as his instructor will have to have confidence in him for the 300, and then will have to sign him out solo specifically for that purpose.
Not required. He has a ppl, rents or buys a plane and flies 300 NM. No instructor or instructor confidence required. Every PPL should be able to fly 300 NM.
It seems I am wrong! I’ve always been under the impression that the solo time towards things like the 300 had to be under the supervision of an instructor, but after this thread and looking through the CARs I can’t find anything that says that’s the case. Learn something new every day...
Ive spoken to a TC Officer about this very specific question and i can definitely tell you that is NOT the case. Don't waste your money people

I almost had to re-do my 300nm as they said it has to be included in a PTR which in turn means you will be supervised
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digits_
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by digits_ » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:07 pm

Daigo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:02 pm
Prairie Highway wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:58 pm
digits_ wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:23 pm


Not required. He has a ppl, rents or buys a plane and flies 300 NM. No instructor or instructor confidence required. Every PPL should be able to fly 300 NM.
It seems I am wrong! I’ve always been under the impression that the solo time towards things like the 300 had to be under the supervision of an instructor, but after this thread and looking through the CARs I can’t find anything that says that’s the case. Learn something new every day...
Ive spoken to a TC Officer about this very specific question and i can definitely tell you that is NOT the case. Don't waste your money people

I almost had to re-do my 300nm as they said it has to be included in a PTR which in turn means you will be supervised
Did the officer give you a CAR reference? Just because you put it in the PTR doesn't mean it is supervised. The PTR is your property, not the instructor's property. Some students prefer to put all their flights in the PTR up to the CPL, so they don't have to submit logbook copies or send their logbook to transport canada to get their license issued. That doesn't mean all those flights are supervised.
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by ShawnR » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:42 am

I having been having a similar conversation with my instructor regarding the xcountry portion of my CPL. I have flown YQT to Ottawa area C150 (with 5 stops en route ) and then from Hamilton to YQT PA38 (only 2 stops en route though) so figured I had the xcountry done but he said he checked and was told no. Must be under his "supervision". So I finally decided to look it up. Here it is today from CARs and I interpret it that yes, I must do it under his supervision as it states the following.....

I can see why it is confusing, I think. In my case, I had not started CPL training when I did the xcountries so they were not in the training environment. But with the wording, maybe it could be argued either way, so might be up to the person at TC who you deal with. Depends on if you believe part B is still under the criteria set in part A or not....who writes this stuff...? :rolleyes:

Anyone have an personal experience in regards to the xcountry?

(4) Experience

(a) An applicant for a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane shall
(amended 2006/12/14)
(i) have completed, subject to paragraph (b), a minimum of 200 hours flight time in aeroplanes, of which a minimum of 100 hours shall be pilot-in-command time including 20 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time, and
(amended 2006/12/14)
(ii) following the issuance of a private pilot licence — aeroplane by Canada or another contracting state, have completed 65 hours of commercial pilot flight training in aeroplanes consisting of a minimum of:
(amended 2006/12/14)
(A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating — Aeroplane, including:
(amended 2006/12/14)
(I) 5 hours night, including a minimum of 2 hours of cross-country flight time;
(amended 2006/12/14)
(II) 5 hours cross-country, which may include the cross-country experience stated in subclause (I); and
(amended 2006/12/14)
(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.
(amended 2006/12/14)...
(B) 30 hours solo flight time including:
(amended 2006/12/14)
(I) 25 hours solo flight time emphasizing the improvement of general flying skills of the applicant which shall include a cross-country flight to a point of a minimum of 300 nautical mile radius from the point of departure and shall include a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of departure; and
(amended 2006/12/14)
(II) 5 hours solo flight time by night during which a minimum of 10 takeoffs, circuits and landings were completed.
(amended 2006/12/14)
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by Daigo » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:46 am

digits_ wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:07 pm

Did the officer give you a CAR reference? Just because you put it in the PTR doesn't mean it is supervised. The PTR is your property, not the instructor's property. Some students prefer to put all their flights in the PTR up to the CPL, so they don't have to submit logbook copies or send their logbook to transport canada to get their license issued. That doesn't mean all those flights are supervised.
Sorry i got things a bit mixed up. I spoke to both an officer as well as an AP. the officer only asked to see my logbook regarding the 300nm but AP said i could fly across the world and it wouldn't count unless it is done with an ftu and recorded on a ptr.

So you might be right. But i wouldn't risk it
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by digits_ » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:58 am

ShawnR wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:42 am
I having been having a similar conversation with my instructor regarding the xcountry portion of my CPL. I have flown YQT to Ottawa area C150 (with 5 stops en route ) and then from Hamilton to YQT PA38 (only 2 stops en route though) so figured I had the xcountry done but he said he checked and was told no. Must be under his "supervision". So I finally decided to look it up. Here it is today from CARs and I interpret it that yes, I must do it under his supervision as it states the following.....

I can see why it is confusing, I think. In my case, I had not started CPL training when I did the xcountries so they were not in the training environment. But with the wording, maybe it could be argued either way, so might be up to the person at TC who you deal with. Depends on if you believe part B is still under the criteria set in part A or not....who writes this stuff...? :rolleyes:

Anyone have an personal experience in regards to the xcountry?

(4) Experience

(a) An applicant for a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane shall
(amended 2006/12/14)
(i) have completed, subject to paragraph (b), a minimum of 200 hours flight time in aeroplanes, of which a minimum of 100 hours shall be pilot-in-command time including 20 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time, and
(amended 2006/12/14)
(ii) following the issuance of a private pilot licence — aeroplane by Canada or another contracting state, have completed 65 hours of commercial pilot flight training in aeroplanes consisting of a minimum of:
(amended 2006/12/14)
(A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating — Aeroplane, including:
(amended 2006/12/14)
(I) 5 hours night, including a minimum of 2 hours of cross-country flight time;
(amended 2006/12/14)
(II) 5 hours cross-country, which may include the cross-country experience stated in subclause (I); and
(amended 2006/12/14)
(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.
(amended 2006/12/14)...
(B) 30 hours solo flight time including:
(amended 2006/12/14)
(I) 25 hours solo flight time emphasizing the improvement of general flying skills of the applicant which shall include a cross-country flight to a point of a minimum of 300 nautical mile radius from the point of departure and shall include a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of departure; and
(amended 2006/12/14)
(II) 5 hours solo flight time by night during which a minimum of 10 takeoffs, circuits and landings were completed.
(amended 2006/12/14)
The 300nm is under section B, which does not require supervision.

It is part of the cpl requirements, so sure, record it in the PTR, but no ftu approval or supervision is required.
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by altiplano » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:32 am

That^^^

Maybe you can see it differently if you format it and split it up a bit:
(A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating — Aeroplane, including:
(amended 2006/12/14)
(I) 5 hours night, including a minimum of 2 hours of cross-country flight time;
(amended 2006/12/14)
(II) 5 hours cross-country, which may include the cross-country experience stated in subclause (I); and
(amended 2006/12/14)
(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.
(amended 2006/12/14)...

-------------------

(B) 30 hours solo flight time including:
(amended 2006/12/14)
(I) 25 hours solo flight time emphasizing the improvement of general flying skills of the applicant which shall include a cross-country flight to a point of a minimum of 300 nautical mile radius from the point of departure and shall include a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of departure; and
Anyway. I'd just get your night rating early on, like right away after PPL... maybe a seaplane rating too if that floats your boat. I had a great seaplane instructor who taught me more in a few hours about flying than I learned from the 250 or 400 hour instructor or whatever she had at the FTU in PPL/CPL till then.

If you want to do CPL and IFR I'd do the MIFR right at the end before you get your CPL signed off... no sense doing it early and having it expire just as you get a CPL and start job hunting...

Besides, you aren't going to be flying around IFR with 75 or 100 hours in a rental Cessna, and you aren't going to be renting multi engine aircraft for solo time building... if schools even rent them...

When you do do the Multi/IFR do it together... getting comfortable in a multi engine aircraft to get the multi rating and then not touching one for a year while you time build in a Cessna or whatever and then going to do your group 1 isn't helpful.

When you are ready to do it, do it all, you'll do a better job, you can focus in the MIFR only with one instructor, and it will probably take less hours and be cheaper... and you'll have a 2 year IFR to go job hunting with as you get your CPL signed off at the same time.

Good luck.
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by ShawnR » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:46 am

After reading again x many times..., digits reply and altipolano's formatting, I agree. I think I have done it (Sorry, not trying to steal this thread. Will not post anymore after this one :wink: )

Ultimately, The question is how the TC officer processing the submitted documentation interprets I think. We have all heard stories about different offices interpreting the rules differently. I might have to wander in and ask. The trip would be fun and good, but expensive if it does not have to be done.

And Part A (II) states that you do need 5 hours dual x country. That part is not so debatable as it is in Part A.

Shawno
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by C-GKNT » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:40 pm

Notwithstanding TC officers with differing interpretation of the regulations, I most definitely got my CPL without a 300NM cross country "under supervision". It wasn't quite around the world, but I listed an 8,000NM trip I did from Alberta to Jamaica and back :lol:

To be honest I don't even remember what I did for a PTR. I think I had to go through my log book to list where the specific requirements for the CPL had been met. I had enough dual from my IFR and various other training throughout the years. My commercial specific training was basically an hour or so of dual with an instructor and a pre-flight test to get the recommend. Oh...and about 0.3 in a C-172 to do a spin :roll: . I have never understood why the spin was on the commercial flight test as by the time you are that level a lot (most?) of the stuff you are flying cannot be spun.

Glenn
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by AuxBatOn » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:36 pm

C-GKNT wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:40 pm
I have never understood why the spin was on the commercial flight test as by the time you are that level a lot (most?) of the stuff you are flying cannot be spun.
It's not about the spin entry but recognition of a imminent spin, recognition of the spin itself and recovery. Because a type is not allowed to be spun doesn't mean it cannot spin.
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by C-GKNT » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:11 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:36 pm
C-GKNT wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:40 pm
I have never understood why the spin was on the commercial flight test as by the time you are that level a lot (most?) of the stuff you are flying cannot be spun.
It's not about the spin entry but recognition of a imminent spin, recognition of the spin itself and recovery. Because a type is not allowed to be spun doesn't mean it cannot spin.
I didn't say I thought concept of spins themselves were unimportant, just that I didn't think they should be on the commercial flight test. VMC rolls are a VERY important concept but not on the multi-engine flight test. More of a practical matter that most of the more advanced planes used at the commercial level cannot be spun. I believe that in the US, spins are not even taught until the CFI.

The reverse of this is...I don't understand why partial panel isn't tested on the IFR flight test.

Glenn
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by Homeless Dog » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:43 am

spins should not be a requirement at all. Why put yourself into a situation like that.
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Re: Ratings in what order?

Post by 5x5 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:40 am

C-GKNT wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:11 pm
The reverse of this is...I don't understand why partial panel isn't tested on the IFR flight test.
Because they save it for the IPC (from the new version of AC 4004-004 issue 3 effective 2019-02-15)

(4) During the IPC, the candidate will be assessed on the following:
(a) Unusual attitude recovery:
(i) using a full panel of instruments; (See Appendix A)
(ii) using a partial panel, (without an attitude indicator/flight director or directional gyro/Horizontal Situation Indicator) or in the case
of an advanced electronic cockpit, without the primary flight display, only by use of the standby instruments. (See Appendix B)
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