Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

[L39Guy]

My son recently completed this program (https://www.senecacollege.ca/programs/fulltime/APF.html) which is an 8 month (2 semester) course offered by Seneca College in Peterborough. I followed him closely through this program and I was impressed with what they learned and the quality of instruction.

It is open to those with a commercial license already and a post secondary education and is an intensive program that teaches valuable material (SMS, aircraft performance, aircraft systems) as well as simulator training in a King Air and CRJ simulator. The instructors all have relevant industry experience and are first rate.

Seneca is in pretty tight with Jazz, Porter, Sunwings and others and I can see why. They produce an excellent product in their normal four year program as well as this one year program. I consider this "finishing school" for anyone that did not do their various licenses through the military or aviation college - this program provides training that you would not get from flying clubs, etc.

I would urge anyone that is interested to check it out...it could be the best investment in flying training you could ever make.

[ant_321]

So your telling someone who already has post secondary AND a CPL to do a 8 month course to learn something you could learn on your own through experience. Jeez you must think people have awefully deep pockets.

[lownslow]

So your telling someone who already has post secondary AND a CPL to do a 8 month course to learn something you could learn on your own through experience. Jeez you must think people have awefully deep pockets.

I don't know how various HR departments look at it, but if it ticks the 'Aviation Diploma" box on an application it could be a real advantage for someone who got their CPL on their own time.

[L39Guy]

I can guarantee you that what you would learn in this 8 month program you cannot "learn on your own through experience". In fact, as far as the simulator training is concerned (over 100 hours) I hope you never get to experience any of it...stab trim runaway's, engine fire/failure, etc. Sorry, but you cannot learn that stuff in a book or an online course. All of the academics, yes you could but I doubt most would unless they were forced to.

The other aspect of this is that Jazz, Sunwings, Porter, and others hire directly from this program (and the full Seneca program). So, if your desire is to fly with any of these and take a pass on flying for some less than desirable outfits, then an 8 month investment in time and money is well worth it.

[Zaibatsu]

That’s all stuff you learn at sim on your initial and recurrent.

[CL-Skadoo!]

I can guarantee you that what you would learn in this 8 month program you cannot "learn on your own through experience".

I've been flying for 30 years without a Seneca diploma. Is it too late for me to learn these valuable items?

[ant_321]

So your telling someone who already has post secondary AND a CPL to do a 8 month course to learn something you could learn on your own through experience. Jeez you must think people have awefully deep pockets.

I don't know how various HR departments look at it, but if it ticks the 'Aviation Diploma" box on an application it could be a real advantage for someone who got their CPL on their own time.

He said it’s open to those with a CPL and post secondary. You would already tick the box with the requirements.

[ant_321]

I can guarantee you that what you would learn in this 8 month program you cannot "learn on your own through experience". In fact, as far as the simulator training is concerned (over 100 hours) I hope you never get to experience any of it...stab trim runaway's, engine fire/failure, etc. Sorry, but you cannot learn that stuff in a book or an online course. All of the academics, yes you could but I doubt most would unless they were forced to.

The other aspect of this is that Jazz, Sunwings, Porter, and others hire directly from this program (and the full Seneca program). So, if your desire is to fly with any of these and take a pass on flying for some less than desirable outfits, then an 8 month investment in time and money is well worth it.

You would learn all those things in your first initial on any airplane. As someone who flies with Cadets from these fancy colleges on a regular basis, I will say most of the “academics” that are taught in these programs have very little real world applications. The cadets who realize quickly how little they actually know and are humble tend to do ok. Those who think their fancy Seneca degree makes them God’s gift to aviation tend to not do so well.

I can say for certain that Sunwing doesn’t hire cadets from an 8 month program. I’m not sure about other airlines.

I am not against education. I’m currently looking into doing a distance education degree myself. But I don’t see any real benefit to this program. If you have a CPL and post secondary education already go find a job. You will learn more practical/useful knowledge in 8 months of real world flying than you will in years in a training environment.

[iflyforpie]

Do you get to pick your own callsign or do you get assigned one?

[jt8d]

Are you kidding me? An 8 month diploma! Ever heard the saying GO BIG OR GO HOME? Either get a 3 or 4 year diploma/degree or don't bother wasting your with this lil post secondary course.. who the heck needs 100 hours in some generic sim? You should atleast come out with a dash type rating after this program

To the OP learn to spell Seneca... especially if you work for them as a recruiter lol.. hard to take your recommendation seriously

[C-GGGQ]

Are you kidding me? An 8 month diploma! Ever heard the saying GO BIG OR GO HOME? Either get a 3 or 4 year diploma/degree or don't bother wasting your with this lil post secondary course.. who the heck needs 100 hours in some generic sim? You should atleast come out with a dash type rating after this program

To the OP learn to spell Seneca... especially if you work for them as a recruiter lol.. hard to take your recommendation seriously

While I overall agree with you, to be fair this is only offered to people who already have the 4 year degree

[C.W.E.]

I've been flying for 30 years without a Seneca diploma. Is it too late for me to learn these valuable items?

Yeh, I managed to fly commercially for 51 years with no accidents or violations and I had very little formal schooling, maybe I was just lucky?

By the way was it Seneca that used to teach multi engine in a Beech Baron and leave the gear down doing circuits?

[rookiepilot]

One of the biggest scams going out there now, as a broader discussion, is arguably college education. My view, but the costs are skyrocketing, the quality isn't there, and neither is the payback.

What a massive profit oriented business education has become, leaving indebted students in their wake.

And so often it is simply not the way the best learning occurs.

[lownslow]

So your telling someone who already has post secondary AND a CPL to do a 8 month course to learn something you could learn on your own through experience. Jeez you must think people have awefully deep pockets.

I don't know how various HR departments look at it, but if it ticks the 'Aviation Diploma" box on an application it could be a real advantage for someone who got their CPL on their own time.

He said it’s open to those with a CPL and post secondary. You would already tick the box with the requirements.

Whoops. I fly okay but I guess I don’t read good. Not sure if that’s something Seneca can help me with.

[Bede]

One of the biggest scams going out there now, as a broader discussion, is arguably college education. My view, but the costs are skyrocketing, the quality isn't there, and neither is the payback.

What a massive profit oriented business education has become, leaving indebted students in their wake.

And so often it is simply not the way the best learning occurs.

+1

-signed, a guy with a lot of education.

[L39Guy]

I am happy for those of you that have flown 51 years or 30 years or whatever without the benefit of a flying college diploma or a higher education. That was then, this is now and times have changed. This is no longer a hands and feet, stick and rudder profession that you entered decades ago. Professional aviators, at the Airline Pilot level (not the Commercial pilot level) require not only those skills but also those of a systems manager and a people (crew) manager. More and more sophisticated aircraft, thanks to technology and the aircraft manufacturers, and more team oriented cockpit skills, thanks to those that failed to use their crew and accidents were the result.

With that in mind, tell me what is wrong with learning:
1. Basic and advanced aircraft system - each and every aircraft course I have done, seven in total, spend weeks learning the unique aircraft systems so clearly this is valuable learning.
2. Aircraft performance - each and every flight requires knowledge of aircraft performance from take-off to touch-down
3. Crew resource management - see above
4. Computer programming - this includes working with an FMS, EFIS, VNAV, etc.
5. 100 hours of simulator time applying the skills learned in the classroom above. This is invaluable training.

It is interesting to note that the airlines in this country seem to desire individuals with this type of training:

Jazz

Preference will be given to candidates with qualifications beyond the basic requirements:

Applicants who possess a Canadian ATPL.
Applicants with two crew multi-engine turbine experience.
Graduates from an Aviation College degree or diploma program.
Applicants with commercial or military flight experience.
Applicants with Flight Management System (FMS) and/or glass cockpit experience.

Porter

QUALIFICATIONS:

* Airline Transport Pilot License (Transport Canada) or Integrated Airline Transport Pilot License
* Minimum 1,000 hours total time
* Aviation College or University Degree is an asset
* Pilots that do not meet the minimum requirements may be considered based on experience and other factors

Encore

Desirable Assets:

Ability to work within a dynamic team
Strong interpersonal and communication skills
Adaptable and flexible to change
Professional and committed to upholding WestJet values
Scheduled airline and/or military flight experience
Glass cockpit and/or FMS experience
Post-secondary education
Internal WestJet and/or WestJet Encore referral

Pacific Coastal

Please note: As pilot applications far exceed job vacancies, preference will be given to candidates with qualifications beyond the minimum requirements, including but not limited to:

Graduate of a recognized degree program
Aviation College degree or diploma
Flight experience in addition to the minimum
Commercial or military flight experience
Jet and/or turbo-prop multi-crew experience

I was mistaken in my earlier post regarding Sunwings. They have not hired from the 1 year "finishing" school but they have hired directly out of Seneca's four year program.

I don't do pilot hiring but I do hiring in my engineering practice. However, if I was a pilot recruiter and I had two candidates in front of me, one with the training that a aviation college like Seneca provides and one that does not, I know which one I would hire, hands down. The aviation college candidate would present more learned skills that are directly applicable to what I want and need as an employer plus I would know that there is less risk of that individual not passing the training as they have already demonstrated that they can perform to a level of an airline pilot.

My advice to any person on this forum looking to compliment their flying skills and become a better aviator and a more desirable employee to any of these and other air carriers, is to give this serious thought. If 8 months of school (and, yes, more money) gives you the skills and qualifications to get hired by one of these excellent air carriers straight out of school and if airline flying is your end goal this is an excellent path.

[TheRealMcCoy]

Le sigh... As far as actual "learning" is concerned, there is no benefit to these degree and diploma programs. You're the same idiot you were going in to it as you were coming out. Yes, you prove to someone that you have the ability to stick it out in a program and pass but don't make the mistake of thinking you're actually a better "airline" candidate because of it... All they are is a cash grab and unfortunately the airlines assign an extra check mark next to your name when you apply.

Plus, the majority of kids in these programs have mommy and daddy paying for all their shit, haven't worked an honest day in their life and really aren't that great of leaders let alone know how to manage people.

My advice. Go to the cheapest school you can find, get your first job and once you're established do a degree online or if you're lucky at a local university if it works with your schedule.

I have a 4 year aviation degree, so I'm not just pessimistically jealous.

[C.W.E.]

That was then, this is now and times have changed. This is no longer a hands and feet, stick and rudder profession that you entered decades ago.

Have they changed the flight controls on airplanes recently and you don't need to know how to hand fly one?

[jt8d]

Sure seems to be less emphasis on hands and feet skills these days... now Jazz has 1000TT system operators that don't know how to land a plane in marginal wind conditions hehe.. i say again.. 100 hours in a sim and no type rating out of it is a money grab! Might as well go out there and get a flight instructor rating with that cash... (since you'd already have a degree anyway). So basically if you take this course, the main benefit is you can check off the FMS experience box... yayyee! Original poster seems to be under the impression that jazz is openly taking 250TT pilots... last i checked, you had to be crème de la crop from the class... so don't bank on Jazz being your first employer as a pilot! I guess Seneca sold you a different story about their post-post-secondary course haha... FMS is easily learned in an initial course with good trainers! Kids these days are pretty tech savvy... if you have the degree to qualify you for this silly program.. then you already have a leg up on most on the CV pile... there's no point in this program at all unless your mommy and daddy are paying for it.

[rookiepilot]

In my experience in my own extremely demanding industry, success in a school environment in no way proves any high degree of competence in actual industry application.

I would personally argue the opposite: Post secondary today too often doesn't teach critical thought, creativity, problem solving, out of the box thinking, independence.....but dependent rote learning.

Maybe (this aviation degree) is different?

In my industry, anyway....there is an accurate saying: Those who can, do. Those who can't...are academics.