Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

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Napoleon So Low
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Napoleon So Low »

He's a good writer, though. His spelling and grammar is impeccable. Which is why I don't believe he's a line pilot. This guy doesn't write like a line pilot, he writes like a SALESMAN. Line pilots just ain't that good. :mrgreen:
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jt8d
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jt8d »

Wait a sec... he used "Sunwings" twice.... I have never heard a pilot call Sunwing Sunwings... more reason to speculate shillage

Edit: i wanted to add :rolleyes:
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TheStig
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by TheStig »

Just for a second take a moment to consider that L39Guy might actually be a 787 Captain (and Engineer, who owns his own firm and who flies his own L39 for fun) who wanted to share his observations from his life time of experience in the Canadian aviation industry.

Even though I don't know L39guy personally, it's easy to recognize his willingness to get into the mud a debate from other private groups.
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Napoleon So Low
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Napoleon So Low »

Or, on the other hand, he might be a kid typing on a computer in his mommy's basement who has never been within 100 yards of an airplane.

This is the internet, where anyone can be anyone.

When someone shows up on a forum and his first post is basically an advertisement for a certain college program, a healthy dose of skepticism is recommended.
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PilotDAR
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by PilotDAR »

This is the internet, where anyone can be anyone.
Yeah... I like to think of entering a discussion in an internet forum, kinda like walking into a room as an unknown new guest. Sure, it's okay to speak to people, but it's better to start off easy, and save the big pronouncements until you've established yourself a little - like getting to know some of the people in the room by listening to them for a while, or having a few hundred low provocativty posts first!

I do recall my sense of foolishness elsewhere many years back, when I followed with considerable interest, the posts of a "Captain xxxx", he/she seemed to write with knowledge. After some time, I happened upon a recent post in which the Captain proudly announced that he/she had just flown their first solo! After that, I committed myself lest to people's posts, until I was much more convinced that they had the actual experience that they pronounced.

I can report with delight, that every AvCanada person I have met in person has been very nice, and forthright. Some more passionate than others (like a certain variable tailwind investigator - but hey, he has the passion!). I've never met a fake in person, so I suppose if they're out there, they're laying low in person.
He's a good writer, though. His spelling and grammar is impeccable. Which is why I don't believe he's a line pilot. This guy doesn't write like a line pilot,.......
Okay, you got me on this one, I risk being similarly labeled, I really do try to use English correctly - and I've never been a line pilot .....

But, I'm not trying to sell anything, other than the idea of safe flying!
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C.W.E.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

What would be nice would be a separate place where posters could ask questions and get answers from qualified members that are approved by the owner of the site based on knowing their qualifications.

For instance I have met PilotDar and know he is a qualified design approval representative so he can answer questions concerning aircraft design specs.
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PilotDAR
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by PilotDAR »

And I have met C.W.E. and know him to be very experienced in answering questions about flying technique, and pilot training on multiple, and unusual types - land and water.

Sadly, it will not be possible to meet all of the interesting people who participate here, but I will always want to present the truth, be it written, or in person - from me, it will be the same truth, and based upon what I know.

On topic, I know that a month or so ago, I flew a number of circuits with an instructor, in a 172, at Peterborough, for the purpose of a check flight, and while I flew, all of Seneca's 172's were parked. I was told it's because they would not fly in those winds - I took it to be true, having no other logical explanation. The winds were within the demonstrated capacity of a 172 - so Seneca weren't training the candidates on crosswind technique, on a nice day, with winds within the numbers for the 172? In fairness, they were flying a Baron. Candidate pilots must be challenged during their learning, crosswinds challenge appropriately. So, my impression of Seneca's training is not perfect..... But, I guess they're the training experts rather than me, providing the product (trained pilot) that their clients (Dash 8 right seats?) are looking for.....
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L39Guy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

TheStig wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:06 am
Just for a second take a moment to consider that L39Guy might actually be a 787 Captain (and Engineer, who owns his own firm and who flies his own L39 for fun) who wanted to share his observations from his life time of experience in the Canadian aviation industry.

Even though I don't know L39guy personally, it's easy to recognize his willingness to get into the mud a debate from other private groups.
You have outed me, sigh. I am no shill nor a marketing guy, I am no teenager with a keyboard contrary to the accusations on this forum.

My intent in creating this thread was solely to raise awareness of this program at Seneca which, in my opinion, is a fabulous opportunity for someone who wishes to become a professional airline pilot but did not get their ratings and post secondary education from an integrated program but rather from other sources.

Part of my intent is due to how the industry is evolving and sadly that is being demonstrated in spades with the B737 MAX issue; I won't get into that in detail here but I have been contributing on PPRUNE https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/619 ... a-208.html extensively on that with the same alias if you care to read it.

Flying is dangerous, damn dangerous. Technology and nice, shiny new aircraft are great however they are not perfect. And what helps keep the industry safe is highly trained airline pilots that understand aircraft systems, crew resource management, hands and feet flying skills, etc. While experience (flying hours) are fine, classroom learning is a means to replace flying experience by learning others lessons without anyone getting hurt. Analyzing previous accidents, understanding aircraft systems, understanding human psychology, understanding aircraft performance are all valuable skills that yield benefits "on the line".

Making mistakes in the simulator is the best place to make them, not in the real aircraft and the simulator program and scenarios offered in this program are first rate. Those of us that have spent lots in time in simulators know that one can do a lot of training (learning) with scenarios that one would not dare to do in the real aircraft. Yes, simulator time is not flying experience but I would submit that 100 hours of intensive simulator training is more valuable than 1,000 hours of cruising along straight-and-level. At the same time, I acknowledge that there is nothing like real world experience either, particularly scaring one's self every so often just to be reminded that this is not a game and flying is potentially lethal.

Anyone that has read the recent parliamentary committee report on flight training (https://copanational.org/en/2019/04/11/ ... r-20190412) will see that more credit should be given to alternative means of training. And, given the high cost of renting aircraft, this also makes sense economically too.

The vitrol that followed my first posting was shocking but not surprising either; I guess it is the nature of the beast when one participates on these forums. I find it ironic that one of the recent posters suggested that I was a teenager with a computer posting idiot ideas. I cannot help but suspect that some of those directing churlish comments my way when all I was trying to do was bring awareness to a superb training opportunity are the teenagers in their parent's basement.

Over and out.
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airway
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by airway »

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but this is not a Diploma. It is a Graduate Certificate.

It does not tick the Diploma box.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Zaibatsu »

All the more reason not to waste any money on it.
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whipline
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by whipline »

Please stop calling it “Sunwing’s”. We only have 1 wing.

Oh and we don’t hire pilots because they took an 8 month course.

Whip
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L39Guy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

I don't recall stating that the one year program (that is, of course, after the individual already has a diploma or degree from elsewhere plus a commercial pilot license) had graduates with Sunwing (no "s") however Jazz has hired graduates of this program and Sunwing (no "s") has hired 285 hour pilots straight from the four year program.
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link821
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by link821 »

i think it should be a graduation requirement for all the Seneca wonders to have to do a "split" duty day and hold for 6 hours on a NWO airport terminal bench in -30.
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captainhack
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by captainhack »

I gave this program some thought as well. However, I am not convinced that this diploma will make a difference for a guy like me with 300 hours, a CPL/MIFR, and a "non-flying" aviation diploma from Seneca. As far as I am concerned, I have met the requirements of "Graduate from an Aviation College degree or diploma program".
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trey kule
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by trey kule »

L39 Guy.

I have read and reread all your posts on this thread. The sense I get is you are really, really promoting this program. And in a very well written way. So well written, in fact, that I can understand why people think you are not as advertised, and have some self interest in this program.

When I read posts such as you wrote, my reaction is to treat them as postamercials.

You do not write like the father of a son who went through the program. Rather more like a promoter defending the program.

If I was asked by a young one about this program, my advice would to be very very cautious. In my experience, Seneca does not have the best reputation, and their graduates are not consistently to the same standard of ability. But that is a very limited and personal opinion.

Be aware when you read glowing posts about a school program.
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Bradley Tucker
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Bradley Tucker »

I would never put someone down for getting an education. However I have hired both grads from the Seneca program and other schools I have had good and bad from both but I must say one of the best pilots I have hired did not come from the program he put many hours in as an instructor too. Great pilot both skill wise and attitude wise. He has been excepted to an airline. I have had graduates from Seneca that I hired. He lasted 3 days after training before he lied to me and others that I have had to council for violations from the Seneca program.

It all depends on the individual and they true desire to succeed in this industry.

So I'm not a fan of a system where someone with money that can afford the prices Seneca charges gets ahead of a damn good pilot that went out and got real world experience. All that sim perks that L39 spoke of you will get on initial and recurrent. The real world decision making skills from in (L39's) less then desirable operators these students will never have to make. That is a skill in this industry that should be worth more then any paper.

I will never not hire a graduate but I would not choose that over good old hard work and real life experiences no I would not, Actually maybe I would lean the other way. I can teach a pilot the systems I can not taeach them experience. Let's look at the IFR if these graduates go to the airline right out school it is possible that the first time they see the inside of a cloud will be with 30-90 passengers on board. How would that make a passenger feel.
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snowcrest
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by snowcrest »

Genuine question - coming from someone in the Seneca 4 year program:

Why do you guys have such a vendetta against the Seneca/college programs? In every college thread there's always one or more old-timers who shudder at the words "aviation college". Are you pissed that you did not get the same opportunities back in the day ?

Also, try to answer the question first before you inevitably question my integrity.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C-GGGQ »

Seneca etc. Is seen as lowering standards And degrading training. 5kt Crosswind Limits, leaving gear down in the circuit and other such gems we have seen over the years since these programs turned into "puppy mills" they also seem to usually get an attitude about how good said program is when in reality their flight skills are not any better and in many anecdotal experiences worse than those who found a reliable private school and worked their butts off on their own. But they got an "aviation diploma" and are therefore desirable to air Canada. So guys who worked their way up through northern operators after financing their own training and networking take it poorly when some "snot nosed college grad" gets to check and extra box on their application and jump ahead of them due to a computer algorithm
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C.W.E.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

leaving gear down in the circuit
Of all the unorthodox procedures they have that has to be the most dangerous one that one can imagine.

If they were incompetent enough to do that what would be the chance of their handling an engine failure in that configuration?

How in hell did T.C. turn their backs on that one?
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captainhack
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by captainhack »

Snowcrest, the reason so many people dislike Seneca graduates is because of the ego that some those individuals display. As an example, I was working somewhere with Seneca students and one of them decided to tell me: “your XYZ school can’t get you into Jazz. You will need to make atleast 1000 hours instructing or flying somewhere for Jazz to even glance at your resume. We get hired and have a cadet program because Jazz know we are best flight school in all of Canada and we are the most successful pilots out there”.
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snowcrest
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by snowcrest »

captainhack wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:10 am
Snowcrest, the reason so many people dislike Seneca graduates is because of the ego that some those individuals display. As an example, I was working somewhere with Seneca students and one of them decided to tell me: “your XYZ school can’t get you into Jazz. You will need to make atleast 1000 hours instructing or flying somewhere for Jazz to even glance at your resume. We get hired and have a cadet program because Jazz know we are best flight school in all of Canada and we are the most successful pilots out there”.
That is fair.
I can definitely see the ego you talk about.. some students can't help but have a stick up their a** 24/7. It's funny because they put on this obnoxious personality even when they're with their fellow peers.
I do unfortunately see a lot of generalising on here (not necessarily from you, just the broader picture). There are some truly hardworking, humble people in the program that are giving it their all, and I reckon they work just as hard as the old-timers did back in the day.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

and I reckon they work just as hard as the old-timers did back in the day.
When was "" back in the day? ""
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by rookiepilot »

snowcrest wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:11 am
Genuine question - coming from someone in the Seneca 4 year program:

Why do you guys have such a vendetta against the Seneca/college programs? In every college thread there's always one or more old-timers who shudder at the words "aviation college". Are you pissed that you did not get the same opportunities back in the day ?
The same answer I would give to anyone in any degree program espousing arrogance.

The notion often claimed that something worthwhile was achieved by attaining a degree of any kind, is offensive in the extreme to those who have achieved significant careers, in any field.

I continue to learn from the practioner "old timers" in my field. Myself and my peers mock the academics for their foolishness.

Degree students too often think the only learning is from professors afraid of leaving the classroom, who couldn't survive in the real world.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

The notion often claimed that something worthwhile was achieved by attaining a degree of any kind, is offensive in the extreme to those who have achieved significant careers, in any field.
Especially in the field of aviation where the only education needed is the ability to read and write.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by rookiepilot »

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:31 pm
The notion often claimed that something worthwhile was achieved by attaining a degree of any kind, is offensive in the extreme to those who have achieved significant careers, in any field.
Especially in the field of aviation where the only education needed is the ability to read and write.

More than a few degree holders I've encountered cannot accomplish either of those tasks with sufficient competence.
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