Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

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BBsault
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Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by BBsault » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:15 am

So, here it is..
Ya, I know there are a number of not so great post now here ,as well on other sites, about the issues at Sault College Aviation currently. What is one more if it may help others thinking of enrolling. Just my 2 cents....
First, I am a B+ students, and in good standing, never failed a class/flight Year 1 and 2. For those that may think the below is due to "just me".

Fingers crossed, in about 2 weeks time, I and the other 3 Sault College students I live with, should be doing our PPL Flight Test. Most of my class have been trying to finish their PPL before the start of our 3rd and finial year in a few weeks, Sept '19. This has been a crazy timeline so far to say the least. Sem 4 and 5 (year 2) flying was pretty much non existent with a few hours per month for long stretches it seemed, manytimes less. Now, the big push so we can get to a cut off point (our PPL ride) so we can continue our last years classes. If not, well no classes for a year.....classes to far ahead of flight lessons.

Maybe it is me, but should it take this long at a flight school? Almost 2 years and about $36,000 invested, with cost of living. As I see some of my friends just leave,(not flying for 2,3 repeatedly) , or issues with the recommendation flights from maybe flying off and on..more off then on...it can be frustrating here. Then there are the ones that had counted on going home to work $$ this summer to pay for year 3. Only to find out by management if they do not stay to get in flight hours, there is no year 3 classes as they do not have the minimum PPL level to enroll in the last year.

We are learning multi/IFR, trying to finish up the program this year. We are going into Sem #6 of 7 Sem classes, yet finishing flying from our Sem #3 this month .. it has been such a rush...uggg. This, our last year, is going to be interesting that is for sure! Have no idea how we are suppose to finish everything when so far behind by this May 2020. We were suppose to write our Commercial this past April, but it was put off as most/all of us were so far behind. Now department heads are saying maybe by the end of Dec/Jan before we write it, some 6 months later then expected after the semester ended

Just posting this for others if they are thinking of coming here. So, not trying to be hard here, but just hope this helps others with some into.
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Last edited by BBsault on Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

ant_321
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by ant_321 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:21 pm

So basically you have 2 years of schooling and nothing to show for it. Assuming it is the schools fault and not yours that’s quite the ridiculous time line you’re working on. For comparison, I went from 0 to commercial multi, IFR in less than a year.
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GoinVertical
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by GoinVertical » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:02 pm

How many others in the class are at the same level as you? How many in the class are just about ready for CPL flight test?

If you have a some that are ready to finish CPL, they need to be learning Multi-IFR stuff.

If you're in the bottom of the pack, then it's probably you. If you aren't struggling with the material, maybe you need to put more effort into having flights booked, rebooking flights, and being prepared for last-minute bookings. If your instructor won't book you, get another one.

If you don't have a flight booked once or twice a day, every day, you're doing it wrong. Even with shitty winter weather, a PPL should easily be done in less than 6 months.
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BBsault
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by BBsault » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:29 am

Hello ant_321 & GoinVertical

Ant 321: "So basically you have 2 years of schooling and nothing to show for it. Assuming it is the schools fault and not yours"

Well, I do have all my credits never failing a class or a flight lesion plan in Year 1 and Year 2. It is the schools issue as most/all of my class are in the same situation.

GoinVertical: "How many others in the class are at the same level as you? How many in the class are just about ready for CPL flight test?"

When my class year started the month of July/Aug '19, I would say 85%-90% plus of the class was still working on their first year flight training. We all wrote our PPL exam in June 2018, so over a year ago. I do not know of anyone that was even close to their CPL flight test. I was not at the bottom of the pack, actually I was right in the middle to upper end of the flight lesions. According to the schools Training Manual, we should of been finishing our CPL flight tests at the moment...NOT...our PPL which was suppose to be completed this time LAST year.

"If you don't have a flight booked once or twice a day, every day, you're doing it wrong."

As students we have very little to no control on bookings. This is done by staff and booking sched are sent out once a week. We are suppose to be flying twice a week, but this seldom happens on average. Most of my class went 3,4,5 weeks between flights during most of Year 2...not just me, all of us! I think I got in about 8 flights in a 5 month window Some of my friends parents who are in aviation started to question the safety of kids going solo, and flying so infrequently the last year.

Here is a link to a tread here maybe this will give some insight as well...
Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

"""Hello Everyone,
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:07 pm
So, over the last few months I have been researching . This includes talking to many current students as well as online posts.
What I have learned is this...

Some students leaving the program as they were tired of waiting for flight time for weeks..
Flight training a full (1) year behind schedule. Second years wrote their PPL written June of 2018..and still not done!
Students given up their "Integration" certificate so they can be farmed out to other flight clubs to finish a rating. Ex Multi rating in 1/4 time.
Students who just finished their second year, that is semester 5, of the 7 Semester program, are still working on their PPL. Should be finishing their Commercial at that point.
Students waiting up to 2 months for flights, with many waiting 3 weeks or longer repeatedly the last 2 semesters.
Students only flying 1 to 2 times a month, some only(2) times in 3 months on average the last 2 semesters.
Administration, Maxx I believe, made changes mid stream in the program forcing some students out of their last years academics for 12 months.
Second year students going into their last year given the "choice" to stay over this semester to TRY to finish their private lessons from year 1 or told they can not complete their last year
Students put in financial hardship because of the above changes. This summer was not suppose to be mandatory so some were counting on going back home to work to pay for their last year. Not really a "choice" that the administration says it is..when you can not pay or have money to live for your last year!!

This is only some of the issues from reading. Seems some parents from online reading where getting together and thinking about their options...

Speaking to a current student, he said over 1/2 of his instructors failed or part failed there PPL recommendation flight texts. So many had issues that the school had to extend their deadline to enroll in the first year flight program. If you fail, you have to pay the school to take that flight semester over again about $3500. As well, you can NOT enroll in your last year classes for 12 months & have to redo most of your First year flights again."


Safe Flying all....
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Last edited by BBsault on Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GoinVertical
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by GoinVertical » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:17 am

If you're not flying twice a week and the curriculum says you should be then I assume you've brought the issue to management? What do they have to say about it all?

If it's actually that bad, you, your classmates, and your parents should probably find some different avenues to take and maybe even legal representation. You're paying for a program that you are obviously not receiving if what you're saying is true.
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BBsault
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by BBsault » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:32 pm

Hello GoinVertical

"If you're not flying twice a week and the curriculum says you should be then I assume you've brought the issue to management? What do they have to say about it all? "

Yes, I as well many approached the Chair of the program with little to no results. We were more or less told they are ..working on it.


"If it's actually that bad, you, your classmates, and your parents should probably find some different avenues to take and maybe even legal representation. You're paying for a program that you are obviously not receiving if what you're saying is true."


Do not take my word for it as to just how bad Sault college aviation is currently, just read some of the post from others. Trust me, it is that bad. Example Most/all of us went 4-5 month flying 1-2 times/month. This is not just a one or two person issue here of not trying, or not being committed. This is a school issues as it evolves most of the class year. Again close to all of my class did NOT have their PPl at the end of Year 2 of the program.

As for as action, I know someone started a Twitter account named Sault Aviation issues I think. I even noticed a post on it from the Mayor of the city. Would be great to have a platform were parents can compare notes!

As far as management goes, seems the Chair of the program, MAPP, has jumped ship and quiet this week. I am thinking all the students and parents of the students calling, knocking on his door had something to do with that.

Guess students are not the only one's tossing in the towel and walking away from this mess!! :smt014
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by flyingcanuck » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:52 pm

I saw the opening for Greg's position, any idea where he's gone too?
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by DCL415 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:14 pm

flyingcanuck wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:52 pm
I saw the opening for Greg's position, any idea where he's gone too?
Algonquin College
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:10 am

I did a charter to CYAM last year, must have been October or so. Beautiful light winds, no clouds below about 15,000'. A rarity for that time if year. I was expecting the circuit to be a zoo and one or both twins out over the lake doing doing VFR training. Basically taking advantage of the good weather. Instead it was maybe 2 planes in the circuit, and that's it. Looked over at the ramp and the hangar was closed, and nothing outside. I thought that was weird, but maybe they're all doing night flying. Came back through after dark, maybe 9:30 or 10pm and the place was a ghost town, nothing besides commercial operators.

I was a student there quite a while ago. Was in the first 10% of the class to finish, and I was on time. The remaining 90% were done by early fall for sure. (Some didn't finish successfully, but that's not the college's fault). I would also spend 8 hours a day at the airport, prepared and ready to go, just waiting for an open slot to open up and I'd steal it and go. Somebody would call in sick, so I'd take their instructor/plane. I also heard rumour that's not allowed anymore.

I'd be looking for a lawyer. You were sold a structured program designed to teach a CPL and MIFR in 7 semesters. Sure small delays happen and that's understandable (twin blows a cylinder, especially bad weather one year, etc.). Now you're two semesters behind and all signs point to that getting worse. The college's issues are going to cost you more tuition, more living expenses, lost income from delaying your career.

Quick math, $6000 more tuition, $1500/month living expenses (rent, KD, cell phone). Expenses alone are $18,000 for 8 months. 1st year FO or dock hand/rampie salary is $32,000, so about 20 grand in lost income.
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by rookiepilot » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:38 am

I've also flown to CYAM a number of times. Always VFR conditions. Come to think of it I don't ever recall the circuit busy. Most traffic was commercial.
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by GoinVertical » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:43 am

Are they short instructors?

Are their instructors paid by the flight hour?

Most "big" flight schools in Canada are busy enough that students can't even do commercial time building during the day time.

Aircraft don't make money sitting on the ground. I wonder what's happening there.
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by photofly » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:53 pm

Students should complain to the Superintendent of the Private Career Colleges Authority. He can force the college to refund fees, and ultimately to shut down the school.
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by flyingcanuck » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:10 pm

GoinVertical wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:43 am
Are they short instructors?

Are their instructors paid by the flight hour?

Most "big" flight schools in Canada are busy enough that students can't even do commercial time building during the day time.

Aircraft don't make money sitting on the ground. I wonder what's happening there.
No they are paid salary, so not much of an incentive to fly more. When I was there they were limited to 3 or 4 flights a day even if there were free planes. And they are short instructors so no one can take advantage of the summer weather sadly..
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by hsilgnepilot » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:14 pm

Curious as to whether Farish and Morin are still there?
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by DCL415 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:48 pm

hsilgnepilot wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:14 pm
Curious as to whether Farish and Morin are still there?
Yup they are still around
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by Bede » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:18 pm

photofly wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:53 pm
Students should complain to the Superintendent of the Private Career Colleges Authority. He can force the college to refund fees, and ultimately to shut down the school.
For Sault? I don't think so. Government funded colleges (ie. Sault, Confed, etc) are exempt from the Private Career Colleges Act. As the name states, it's Private Colleges.
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by photofly » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:32 pm

Ah, right, didn’t realize it was my money being wasted along with the students’.

Might be worth contacting the Ministry of Education anyway.
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:41 pm

Wonder if this job ad for the aviation chair position has anything to do with this:

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/1447 ... vGhQ%3D%3D
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by Alex335 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:33 pm

What’s there to lose flying at other places? It’s not an iATPL program so giving up on integration won’t be setting students back 500hrs for the SAMRA/SARON exam. For an integrated CPL doesn’t it only drop the hours requirement from 200 to 160-190(forgot how it works)?

Either way will need 250hrs for an IATRA so it’s not really a loss, other than not flying a government subsidized aircraft and needing to pay for the hours? Or does the integrated CPL give an IATRA below 250hrs? Regardless more hours could only help at the end of the day I would think.

If possible why not take advantage of all the available subsidized flying time, then add flight time from a local flight school for a more consistent training schedule and leg up on your flight test?
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by joshiscool26 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:47 pm

Back a few years when I was at Confed they tried to play us for fools because everyone was behind on flight training (entirely their fault). Instead we saw what was happening and went to our student union. With their guidance we went to all the high ups in control of the system with a signed letter from every single student in our class. The chair of aviation tried to strong arm us into backing down but after a few threats about all of us going to the media and every one parking planes in protest it worked its way up the chain and we finally succeeded in getting what we paid for. I guess the optics of 30 kids standing up against a reputable college program wasn’t in their best interest.
Something similar might work in your case as well but you need every single student on board with you and a really good leader out of the bunch to make it work.
I hope it all works out.
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by Maverick117 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:18 pm

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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by altiplano » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:11 am

I'd walk in to the office of whoever is responsible today with an ultimatum for the school to satisfy their responsibility to you, in an accelerated manner, immediately or I'd take legal action against the school.

Bottom line, you are getting what you paid for if they are refusing you to go flying.

That represents not only a waste of your money today, and loss of income today by necessity of extending your training, but future opportunity lost also. That's 1 year later on the seniority list, 1 year later for your Captain upgrade, 1 more year you could potentially have been at the top of the pay scale on the biggest equipment at whatever airline you go to before you retire...

Time is opportunity, seniority, lifestyle, money in this business, today and into the future... don't let them waste yours.

And out of curiousity, what is the issue? Aircraft or staffing shortage? Or instructors just not wanting to fly?
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by rookiepilot » Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:10 pm

I don't understand how a school like this can remain in operation.
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Re: Should it take 2 years to get a Private? Thank you Sault College. :(

Post by vermont » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:20 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:10 pm
I don't understand how a school like this can remain in operation.
Easy, OSAP!
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