Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

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Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by nvestr » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:35 pm

HI all,

I am new to the forum from NB. I am looking to get in GA very soon and have been doing some research. Would like some opinions on whether this path (that has been recommended to be by a good acquaintance 2800 hr IFR private pilot) makes a lot of sense.

My end goal is to be a partner in an IFR-rated piston single (G1000 C182 Turbo or G3 SR-20)

Start with PPL (Moncton Flight College) flying a Diamond DA20. Hopefully can get it done in 50-60 hours. Don't think I will try to do in minimum, would rather spend extra time dual to become a better pilot.

Immediately after PPL, I would go for the Night VFR ticket in a C172S

Immediately after this I would go for a Multi-IFR rating (group 1). I have been recommended to go this route even though I don't really intend to fly multi-engine planes. I have been told that flying multi will make IFR a bit easier (I forget why, I think because higher approach speed makes it easier to stay in glideslope?). I was also told that having 25-40 hours of logged multi time will make insurance much more affordable for a "new pilot". Multi will also teach me proper engine management techniques which would carry over to a single piston, especially a turbo. Downside of this is the higher rental cost of a dual, I guess.

The plan would be to get all of this done in 1 year. I expect I would have logged around 120-160 hours to achieve this. Accurate?

First of all, is this reasonable and recommended for a new pilot to go through all of these in rapid succession? Should I pause and fly more VFR before jumping to IFR?

Thanks for the feedback!
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by ahramin » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:22 pm

Your plan sounds like a recipe for a fatality. My thoughts in no particular order:

What matters to the insurance company is PIC time and most importantly time on type. If you are not going to be flying a twin, doing a multi IFR would be a complete waste of time that early in the game. Get your PPL, get very comfortable and PROFICIENT with VFR flying in the day, then get the night rating, get very comfortable and PROFICIENT with night VFR flying, then get the single IFR. By then you will hopefully have enough experience and skill to survive owning a C182 or SR20. If that get boring and you want something else to sharpen your skills, THEN go get the multi training.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by photofly » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:31 pm

I don't want to appear rude, but you're already planning your third novel, before you've learned the alphabet.
Alternatively, you've picked the names for your grandchildren before you've even met your wife.

You get the idea.

Don't flatter yourself or your flight school that you will get much choice between "can get it done in 50-60 hours" and "try to do in minimum," The national average is north of 71 hours, which means about half of qualifying students take longer than that. And every single one of them is going just as fast as they can.
would rather spend extra time dual to become a better pilot.
is what lazy people or people who come to realize that their instructor was poor and unable to teach them effectively tell themselves to feel better about taking 90, 100, 150 hours to reach a licence standard. Extra hours dual doesn't mean extra skill. Extra skill means extra skill. Taking longer to reach a flight test standard doesn't mean you reach a higher standard; it just means you took longer to reach the standard.

Get a PPL, work as hard as you can and enjoy the learning which will continue long after you get a PPL.
Multi will also teach me proper engine management techniques
Which you can more easily learn on one engine, than two. That's one of the strangest reasons to want to fly on two engines I think I've ever heard!

By the way, real IFR flight in a piston single like a 182 is an occasional luxury, in Canada. in summer it's too convective (even the airlines are steering around the clouds) and in winter you will ice up and die. Even something approved for flight in known icing (SR22T?) cannot cope with serious ice. Getting an instrument rating is fun, but nobody with a brain - partner or insurance company - is going to let you loose in a Cirrus or Turbo 182 in weather, with 160 hours (slightly more than twice the national average taken to get a bare PPL) flight time in your logbook.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by Beefitarian » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:00 am

I think what photofly is trying to say is, there are lots of better things to concentrate on than. "Golly, I have 46 hours and they didn't recommend me for a flight test."

I agree a bit of extra training seems good. If you are still learning and not stuck repeating things you are confident at, don't even count hours.

If you are at 100 with no PPL, maybe I'm wrong and you are getting milked or something worse.

Anyways, I might be terrible at it but just wanted to encourage you.

Here's an interactive site with all the available PSTAR questions. http://www.principalair.ca/pstar_table_ ... .htm#PSTAR
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by rookiepilot » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:09 am

I tend to be direct.

Start with a discovery flight. Go on a bumpy day. See if you even like flying a small airplane that's getting tossed around without getting sick.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by Bede » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:08 am

Further to photofly's point, I would focus on your PPL and then get really comfortable doing cross countries. You will learn far more about flying doing long cross countries than you will doing anything else.

IFR is kind of useless for most cases for reasons explained above. When I'm in a small plane and the weather is bad, I either go under it, VFR-OTT (very rarely) or I just don't go.

Have fun with your training.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by digits_ » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:58 am

I'm not sure what triggered all this negativity. I think it's good you have a clear goal of what you want to achieve. It will probably take you longer because of scheduling issues, maintenance delays and weather during your training, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't/couldn't try to do it in the minimum amount of time.

If you are worried about looking good to insurance companies: ask them what they want, and you'll know! I have a feeling the dual multi hours are not that important.

Why don't you try do to the majority of your training on the plane you are going to buy? For example, get your PPL at a flying school on a rental, see if you like flying. If you do, buy your plane and do all the other training on the airplane. That will give you much more time on type. Insurance companies love time on type. You'll need an FTU who wants to work with you, but that should be possible.

IFR is not a magical license that makes it safe to fly through clouds. Icing is a significant problem in a plane wihout decent deice systems in winter. Where are you planning on flying in winter? Northern Canada or Southern US? That makes a big difference.

Good luck!
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by nvestr » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:05 am

Thanks for all the responses, especially the cheeky ones :).

I do have to say I'm not really surprised by some of the answers because they were my initial gut feeling, however this trusted pilot that made those recommendations seems to be very well respected and is a person I trust implicitly. The multi-engine IFR recommendation did strike me as odd when I heard it. My initial impression was that I should master each step before going to the next one, but this gentlemen who made this recommendation made it sound like getting all of these tickets would make me a safer/smarter pilot from the get go and would mean a lot of time with an instructor in the beginning of my flying career, which would allow me build up a lot of initial hours with an instructor and learn good habits.

As far as the time estimates I had placed above, it was not meant as self-flattery, I simply thought most people got it done closer to 50 hours then to 80. If 71 is the national average, then I suspect I will be around there somewhere, hopefully on the lower side but doesn't really matter.

So am I reading from the comments is that doing these in quick succession will mean that I will have hard time obtaining the licenses due to my skill level or that I will kill myself in the process?

I do also want to clarify that the goal is not to go out and actually fly in IMC immediately after I would get the rating, etc. The goal for doing IFR so early is to get the skills early and build up experience from there. Do we agree that all else being equal, an instrument rated pilot is more skilled than a bare PPL pilot? Wouldn't having those skills earlier in my career benefit me, as long as I maintain reasonable flying condition minima for my experience and proficiency level?
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by lhalliday » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:39 am

Multi-IFR is a waste of time and money unless you're a millionaire who owns and flies a multi or are flying professionally. Note that you would have to do your biennial renewal flight test in a multi, so you must be both multi- and IFR-proficient. Major $$$ if you're not doing it every day.

Night VFR is a common stepping-stone to an instrument rating. You must be comfortable flying the plane intuitively, since you need to concentrate on other things. Get to that point before committing to other things. The skills that matter come from actually flying - mountains, new and challenging airports, international flights, lots of other good stuff.

...laura
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by digits_ » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:43 am

nvestr wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:05 am

I do also want to clarify that the goal is not to go out and actually fly in IMC immediately after I would get the rating, etc. The goal for doing IFR so early is to get the skills early and build up experience from there. Do we agree that all else being equal, an instrument rated pilot is more skilled than a bare PPL pilot?
You will definitely have acquired new skills, but that might result in your VFR skill deteriorating. If 150 hours is spent flying VFR, those will be better developed than if you are spending 75 hours on VFR skills and 75 hours on IFR skills.
Will you be more skilled? Depends....
nvestr wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:05 am
Wouldn't having those skills earlier in my career benefit me, as long as I maintain reasonable flying condition minima for my experience and proficiency level?
They could get you in trouble if not managed properly. A VFR pilot might cancel a flight that an IFR pilot would accept, thinking that his IFR rating will get him out of trouble if the weather turns to crap. That is problematic if you are not prepared to actually go IFR. Especially when starting out, those unexpected "I'll wing my way through it"-situations could potentially be quite dangerous.

I still think it is a good idea to do both, just be aware of the pitfalls and limitations.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by Squaretail » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:15 am

however this trusted pilot that made those recommendations seems to be very well respected and is a person I trust implicitly.
There's your first mistake. Don't trust pilots, and especially don't trust them if they are apparently "well respected". Whenever I think of pilots you got to go with Obi-wan: "You'll never find a a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We should find a pilot here."
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by rookiepilot » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:23 am

nvestr wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:05 am

however this trusted pilot that made those recommendations seems to be very well respected and is a person I trust implicitly.
Very bad idea.

Get your PPL, if you don't puke on the discovery flight.

Then, in a simple aircraft, fly all over the place, day VFR. Across North America even, carefully and conservatively planned. THAT will give you a load of experience and learning opportunities.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by photofly » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:45 am

nvestr wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:05 am
As far as the time estimates I had placed above, it was not meant as self-flattery, I simply thought most people got it done closer to 50 hours then to 80. If 71 is the national average, then I suspect I will be around there somewhere, hopefully on the lower side but doesn't really matter.
I didn't make my point clearly. If it takes you 80 hours, it's probable you aren't being taught right, and that means the skills you are learning are deficient. Maybe the corollary will be clearer: if an instructor is teaching you the right skills in an appropriate way, it won't take you 80 hours.
One more time, for emphasis: the 80 hour-to-PPL student is left with weaker skills than a student who learns from a more effective instructor.
Do we agree that all else being equal, an instrument rated pilot is more skilled than a bare PPL pilot?
No, we don't agree. (Of course not!) An instrument rated pilot has shown adequate proficiency at an extremely limited subset of pilot skills, flying mostly straight and level, without looking out of the window, while accurately following ATC instructions. That's a great skill to have if you want to fly when and where IFR flight is required. Outside of that environment, IFR training has little practical application. I don't say that it's not worth doing - it's fun and can be satisfying to work on, but it's not going to make you a great pilot, and the equivalent amount of time could be devoted by what you describe as the "bare PPL" pilot to learning a whole bunch of stuff that will make you a great pilot.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by Beefitarian » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:47 am

Ok, stop reading this junk and go get a ppl or you will end up like me.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by Aviatard » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:48 am

lhalliday wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:39 am
Note that you would have to do your biennial renewal flight test in a multi, so you must be both multi- and IFR-proficient. Major $$$ if you're not doing it every day.
True but you also have the option to renew in an approved FTD if you can find one. Slightly less $.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by youhavecontrol » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:02 pm

Unless the plane you are hoping to fly has de-ice equipment, IFR is pretty useless in winter. Unless the plane has airborne weather radar, there's hardly a time you can fly even in summer without embedded CB's in the maritime GFAs.
If I were you, I'd get some skill-building instrument training at night on the type you'll be owning if you want the most bang for your buck. You don't need a Group 1 IFR, and even a Group 3 in a basic aircraft might tempt you to punch above your weight class. Do the training with MFC up to your night rating, then get someone to freelance some skill-building lessons on your new plane. Fly for a while and if you then feel you really need that instrument rating, go for it.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by Kejidog » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:34 pm

Good advice above from all but I have a question. Unless you are apparently more rich than your average east coaster where do you expect to find a partner willing to allow a low time basically a student buy into and fly solo a sr22 or a well equipped 182? And do yo know of how few actual aircraft are around the maritime provinces? Nobody i have met locally is looking to offer this type of arrangement, i know because i am looking for a bonanza to purchase with a partner in NS. I think unless you have some very well monied close friends you’re not going to find a partner to pursue this lofty goal. Most people i have met around here flying are either too poor, too cheap, or too anal, to partner with.

Be like me. Buy a cheap 2 or 4 seater and train and get your ppl in it and save the money on Tuition from MFC. Fly the shit out of it and see where you end up. I’ve put close to 400 hours on my 172 since i bought it in 2016 with 10 hours dual. Soloed in it got my ppl in it night rating in it and now working on my commercial.

What you want to do is lofty but you need to be realistic. Ask your well respected buddy how he got his considerable hours. I bet it was military or on someone else’s dime. And if he is so competent maybe he,s an instructor.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by Kejidog » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:44 pm

Or you could buy mr bitcoin millionaire Gerry Cotten’s cessna 400 that has been sitting in debert since early 2017 unflown. His estate trustee is looking for money to pay off all his scammed creditors. I don’t think it’s G100 so you’d be slumming it though.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by PilotDAR » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:51 am

Generally good advice preceding, embrace it, and you'll be on the right path. In terms of learning, and taking advice (information) from trusted pilots, consider the following:

You are the sponge, dry and new. The learning and information is the water. In the beginning, no matter how much water you pour on the sponge, it can only absorb so much, and the rest runs off wasted. After being filled and wringed out a number of times, the sponge absorbs and retains water much better, and actually expands to hold more.

As a new pilot, you can only learn so much at a time, the rest will be wasted upon you, at $200 per hour. As you learn, and progress, and gather a basis of knowledge, the more indepth, and complex skills will be easier to absorb and retain. Sure, have goals of advanced flying, but focus on a plan for basis learning, and building a good foundation of skills, before you take on more. When you're ready for more learning, your mind will formulate very good questions to ask. The considered answers you will receive will be your indication that you're ready to advance - not a number in a logbook.

I have attempted to train pilots to skill C, to realize that I had failed that pilot by not recognizing that they had not mastered skills A & B yet. There was inadequate foundation to learn skill C. Put the multi IFR stuff right out of your mind and your plan for now. Put the single IFR stuff on the far horizon. Put the engine management skills about hour 5 in your training, and build from there forever!
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by waterdog » Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:33 pm

Hi nvestr, there is lots of really great information above from people far more experienced than me. From someone who got their ppl in 2017 here is what I found.
The time it takes to get your ppl is directly related to how much effort you put into the process and how often you fly. If you can fly 2 to 3 times a week you will progress that much faster. Chair fly your flights beforehand, spend some time debriefing your flights after so that you can learn to assess what is going well and what you need to work on.
Once you get your ppl spend some time flying and learning. I am shocked when I look back now at how little I knew and how far I have come, all under a simple ppl. What's your mission, why do you want to get your licence? If it's for the $100 hamburger that's going to get old pretty fast. It doesn't sound like you are looking at flying commercially, so what's your drive? Is it long trips? Flying to the US? Float flying? There is a lot of fun that can be had and a lot of experience that you can achieve with a ppl and some gas money. Once you have flown for a while you will start to learn the limitations of your license, your experience, and the plane that you are flying. Now you are in a great place to make a decision on how to start removing those limitations.
From what I have seen the recommendation to combine your multi and IFR rating are common because it saves money, IF you are on the path for your ATPL this seems to be the route that people take. When you look at flight schools and their pricing, adding a multi-engine endorsement to your IFR training doesn't increase the price very much. But as others have said, unless you are going to use it, it's not necessary and the skills you gain will degrade very quickly if you're not using them. You might find after flying around on your ppl for a while that it makes more sense to go straight for your IFR without the night rating, it all depends on your mission. You might find that an IFR rating isn't something that you will use enough to remain proficient with the flying that you are doing and a ppl with a night rating is sufficient.

For perspective, I finished my flight test with 45.6hrs in 2017
Immediately got my float endorsement
Flew another 300hrs from 2017 until now
Am only now getting my night rating. Why, because with the flying that I am doing I find it limiting and I don't like being worried about getting back before it gets dark, especially in the winter when it gets dark so early.
But in that 300hrs I have been to every strip imaginable, from a small grass strip in Northern Ontario to an International airport in the US. I bought a simple plane that I can afford to put gas in and have had a blast challenging myself to be as good as I can be.

Have fun and enjoy the process!
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by nvestr » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:56 am

Kejidog wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:34 pm
Good advice above from all but I have a question. Unless you are apparently more rich than your average east coaster where do you expect to find a partner willing to allow a low time basically a student buy into and fly solo a sr22 or a well equipped 182? And do yo know of how few actual aircraft are around the maritime provinces? Nobody i have met locally is looking to offer this type of arrangement, i know because i am looking for a bonanza to purchase with a partner in NS. I think unless you have some very well monied close friends you’re not going to find a partner to pursue this lofty goal. Most people i have met around here flying are either too poor, too cheap, or too anal, to partner with.

Be like me. Buy a cheap 2 or 4 seater and train and get your ppl in it and save the money on Tuition from MFC. Fly the shit out of it and see where you end up. I’ve put close to 400 hours on my 172 since i bought it in 2016 with 10 hours dual. Soloed in it got my ppl in it night rating in it and now working on my commercial.

What you want to do is lofty but you need to be realistic. Ask your well respected buddy how he got his considerable hours. I bet it was military or on someone else’s dime. And if he is so competent maybe he,s an instructor.
Thanks all, didn't realize I had more replies, bit late checking back in.

This is a fair point, however I will say that money is not really an issue here (within reason), and I guess that does make me ''more rich than your average east coaster'' as you state. I don't mind spending the money to become a better pilot. It's as simple as that. I have the resources to buy my own plane, but would rather be with a partner to gain some mentorship and knowledge from him as well.

The reason I started this thread was because the idea of a potential partnership was ''offered' to me with the path laid out in my original post as acceptable conditions to him being comfortable with me as a partner. The window for that partnership may not be around forever so this was the reason for the 1-year window to get these ratings done.

I think another reason that this path was suggested to me was to get the maximum amount of hours under my belt prior to joining a partnership. i.e. put the training hours on someone else's plane. In my area, the only way to get flight time is by owning or going to flight school. There are no rental operations around here. Closest being Truro Flying Club as far as I can tell which is very inconvenient.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by nvestr » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:02 am

waterdog wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:33 pm
Hi nvestr, there is lots of really great information above from people far more experienced than me. From someone who got their ppl in 2017 here is what I found.
The time it takes to get your ppl is directly related to how much effort you put into the process and how often you fly. If you can fly 2 to 3 times a week you will progress that much faster. Chair fly your flights beforehand, spend some time debriefing your flights after so that you can learn to assess what is going well and what you need to work on.
Once you get your ppl spend some time flying and learning. I am shocked when I look back now at how little I knew and how far I have come, all under a simple ppl. What's your mission, why do you want to get your licence? If it's for the $100 hamburger that's going to get old pretty fast. It doesn't sound like you are looking at flying commercially, so what's your drive? Is it long trips? Flying to the US? Float flying? There is a lot of fun that can be had and a lot of experience that you can achieve with a ppl and some gas money. Once you have flown for a while you will start to learn the limitations of your license, your experience, and the plane that you are flying. Now you are in a great place to make a decision on how to start removing those limitations.
From what I have seen the recommendation to combine your multi and IFR rating are common because it saves money, IF you are on the path for your ATPL this seems to be the route that people take. When you look at flight schools and their pricing, adding a multi-engine endorsement to your IFR training doesn't increase the price very much. But as others have said, unless you are going to use it, it's not necessary and the skills you gain will degrade very quickly if you're not using them. You might find after flying around on your ppl for a while that it makes more sense to go straight for your IFR without the night rating, it all depends on your mission. You might find that an IFR rating isn't something that you will use enough to remain proficient with the flying that you are doing and a ppl with a night rating is sufficient.

For perspective, I finished my flight test with 45.6hrs in 2017
Immediately got my float endorsement
Flew another 300hrs from 2017 until now
Am only now getting my night rating. Why, because with the flying that I am doing I find it limiting and I don't like being worried about getting back before it gets dark, especially in the winter when it gets dark so early.
But in that 300hrs I have been to every strip imaginable, from a small grass strip in Northern Ontario to an International airport in the US. I bought a simple plane that I can afford to put gas in and have had a blast challenging myself to be as good as I can be.

Have fun and enjoy the process!
Thanks for the great reply.

Mission is a good question: While I`m sure the mission will evolve, I am interested in flying locally for fun, but also flying cross country as a means of transportation for business (albeit I do not travel for business more than 4-6 times per year). The rest would be simply opening up new horizons as a way to travel, for weekend trips to new places, etc. Eventually I would like to be able to go on vacations with my aircraft. The freedom of going where you want (weather permitting) is very appealing to me.
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Re: Starting PPL - Night VFR + Multi IFR immediately after?

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:19 pm

Buy a Cub, cheap to fly and a real fun toy.
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