The sad state of regional pilots in Canada

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rookiepilot
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Re: The sad state of regional pilots in Canada

Post by rookiepilot »

Squaretail wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:08 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:50 am


And you all wonder why I have an affinity for America. At least they don't do that.
And they heavily subsidize not only pilot training, but also general aviation as a whole. For some reason you never hear the free market proponents criticize that.
You misquoted me deliberately. Seems to be a favourite thing on this site.

I said "at least they don't do that -- meaning Federal government calling all of there small business owners parasite tax cheats".
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Squaretail
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Re: The sad state of regional pilots in Canada

Post by Squaretail »

rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:25 pm
Squaretail wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:08 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:50 am


And you all wonder why I have an affinity for America. At least they don't do that.
And they heavily subsidize not only pilot training, but also general aviation as a whole. For some reason you never hear the free market proponents criticize that.
You misquoted me deliberately. Seems to be a favourite thing on this site.

I said "at least they don't do that -- meaning Federal government calling all of there small business owners parasite tax cheats".
I'm missing how I misquoted you, but apologies if it offended, the difference between how the American Government treats small business and how the Canadian one does wasn't really the focus of my post. From my small experience in the matter, in practical terms there seems to be less of an actual difference between the two - neither government are especially friendly to small business, even if the American politicians talk a better game. When you consider how politicians are in the pockets of big business, the picture becomes clear - big business is interested in quashing competition from small business where ever and when ever they can, and the government assists them in doing so at every turn. Don't get me started on how the regulator has no sense of scale, its been a preoccupation this year. If anything, I guess you could just say that the Canadian government is just honest about how it feels about small business - and I'm not saying that sentiment is correct - it just is how it is.

Now I could just turn things around on you and say stop whining about this aspect, but I won't. :wink: This is all really just to say that don't be so certain the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. I mean its bad enough the Americans like to paint this place as some third world nation to scare their own populace on how much worse it could be like in "Socialist Canada". On further thought though I'd like to offer some counter arguments for your consideration about education as a whole, retaining a somewhat of an aviation bent to it. I'm just cutting and pasting, so again I'll apologize if you feel you were misquoted here.
(tourist) demand goes up -- hey why not stay in school, Gov't (meaning the rest of us) are paying;
I don't see this as a huge issue. While I know there are career students out there, its a really small number. Most of these are ones that aren't subsidized, but rather have an unlimited line of credit from the bank of Mom and Dad.
Costs skyrocket -- look what tuition has done the last 20 years;
Keep in mind that over that period education in terms of what is available to loan to students has been heavily reduced. The Government of Canada is not in the business directly of giving students money, but rather it is run through the banks, who are the real winners here. You used to be able to get a student loan which you didn't have to pay interest on for as long as you were in school, and only had to start making payments on - at least when I did it - didn't start until a year after you finished school. I'll note that I paid that loan back in full, with interest, so I'm seeing that the taxpayer came out ahead on that deal. Now because the government regulated how much was given depending on the program you were enrolled in, the schools charged appropriately, and you were more likely to get approved for such a loan if you went to places that were cheaper. The schools themselves were of course subsidized, partly based on what they offered, but partly based on how they kept their costs down.

Now that the banks control how much money students will get though, like if you go for a mortgage, to the inexperienced they will try to convince you to loan as much money as they can. Schools have priced accordingly. Students are also not enticed by possible options of cheaper career paths - rural doctors for instance. I don't envy kids these days trying to get ahead in the world. Arguably myself and my parents had it easier. You're right in that tuition has skyrocketed, I'm not sure your conclusion on why is correct. In essence, while we still subsidize schools, we don't subsidize students to more effectively control the supply and demand.
Quality plummets. No market incentive exists to compete.
This happens because the tendency of the market forces are for institutions to gain local monopolies on students. This has happened in flight training in particular. Now you are right in that subsidized schools can out compete non- subsidized ones, its also a consequence of simply the bigger fish being able to out compete the small fish naturally, which also includes a bigger capacity to get subsidized. A vicious circle. Your complaint about how small business is treated here is valid. It should be noted that in the case of flight training, the Americans don't directly subsidize it, consequence of their biggest socialist construct (in fact possibly the worlds largest most money churning one), their military. Canada could really steal a page from their book in this case. We used to do this more, but certainly have drastically cut it back. After all, we all know about the old guy at the airport who got a cheque for $300 for his pilot training. It would be win-win. Canada could up its military expenditure (to show that magic 2% GDP) and GA in Canada would flourish, and a more ready supply of pilots to keep labour costs and ticket prices down.

Arguably part of the Government's job is to protect us from market forces that push towards monopolization, which isn't good for anyone outside of course the few who control the monopoly. Side note - I've only come recently to realize the horrific implications of the game Monopoly. It only has one winner after all. :wink:
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rookiepilot
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Re: The sad state of regional pilots in Canada

Post by rookiepilot »

Squaretail,

Interesting post. In my experience interacting with my American friends, while you may be right about the dominance of big business, their culture, including their governments at various levels, celebrate and encourage the creation of small businesses. Small business folks are looked at positively.

I'd submit this is a big part of America's long term success. Every big business was small once.

Up here, one is looked at like they are stealing money, for running a small business. We are proudly a socialist paradise.

If I'm whining, it's because my finance minister calls me, along with the farmers, a parasite and a crook.

It's offensive to me, when our PM's idea of good time is mocking other races by dancing like a retarded monkey, and the media thinks this is just dandy.

That's your government, and mine.
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Squaretail
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Re: The sad state of regional pilots in Canada

Post by Squaretail »

rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:57 pm
Squaretail,

Interesting post. In my experience interacting with my American friends, while you may be right about the dominance of big business, their culture, including their governments at various levels, celebrate and encourage the creation of small businesses. Small business folks are looked at positively.
I would argue though that what you say is better is merely perception, and their politicians make better promises. When it comes to money in the bank I'm not so sure they're that far ahead, especially anymore. There are advantages and disadvantages to running a small business on each side of the border, obviously they have larger markets and less costs from, well, winter. I'm saying for all the heavy feelings about it, I just don't notice much difference. If anything, when I see small businesses that do exceptionally well down there its because paradoxically they have a bigger opportunity to suckle at the government teat. One sees this especially in aviation.
I'd submit this is a big part of America's long term success. Every big business was small once.
Its a double edged blade though, the problem being when small becomes big, does it close the path behind? Does it spend more resources eliminating competition than innovating? For our aviation tie in, its suggested this is Boeing's main problem these days. A company once known for innovation and forward thinking has slipped into lobbying against its competitors to the government instead of competing against them by creating superior product. History repeats itself - ever wonder why there are no Wright branded airplanes today?
Up here, one is looked at like they are stealing money, for running a small business. We are proudly a socialist paradise.

If I'm whining, it's because my finance minister calls me, along with the farmers, a parasite and a crook.
Well now you know how it feels to be a flight instructor, except instead of some talking heads in government you might see on TV, its every other person in your profession who treats you that way including your customers.
It's offensive to me, when our PM's idea of good time is mocking other races by dancing like a retarded monkey, and the media thinks this is just dandy.

That's your government, and mine.
In all honesty I try not to worry about what the PM is doing, ultimately he has very little effect on my day to day life (if any) and he has relatively little power to change policy. I mean should he displease the Party membership enough, he can be changed like a cheap suit. Canadians can also be smug in the fact that we didn't vote for him (unless of course you're a card carrying Party member of which is only a small fraction of the population). Ultimately, he's never going to do anything drastic - realistically he can't. Sure he might be embarrassing, ridiculous and nonsensical, but I'm not up at night worrying about whom he's offended today or tomorrow. That's just feelings. We're lucky we don't invest as much power in our "leader". OTOH that guy south of the border is incredibly intrusive, pervasive and with a stroke of his sharpie can change your life tomorrow. Frig, he's even managed to directly inconvenience me - to the ultimate small cost to the American tax-payer - but still, its alarming how much power he wields.
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Re: The sad state of regional pilots in Canada

Post by ayseven »

Mr Squaretail, you have pretty much nailed everything, from my experiences in education, business and aviation. Business is a club as much as anything, and they do not seek members. In fact, they hate competition, all the while convincing the governnents that THEY deserve subsidies, but never individuals. The public suck it up every time, somehow still believing the old trickle down illusion.
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Re: The sad state of regional pilots in Canada

Post by fish4life »

dialdriver wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:07 pm
fish4life wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:26 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:34 pm


So?

There is great need for skilled engineers, doctors, surgeons, businesspeople, firefighters, accountants, and many other professions.

Why do you imply pilots add more value to society, and therefore society should pay their training costs, while the pilot ultimately reaps the rewards?

I don't agree with subsidizing pilot training anymore than I would support most others, which require a substantial investment in training for an ultimately very high paying career, which recoups that investment in spades.

You want it bad enough, cut your lifestyle, drive a crap car, and work like a dog. Find a way. Like so many others have.

More whining.
Most of those degree programs are heavily subsidized by the government
I have one of those degrees. I was not heavily subsidized. I paid for it with a combination of savings and student loans. I spent 5 years in student poverty and will miss out on 5 years of late career earnings.

I sucked it up.
Actually unless you paid the international student rate which is about 5-10 times what a Canadian will pay then you had your degree heavily subsidized by the government. Click on the google search link below and you will see just a few Canadian university tuition examples.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mcgill+ ... e&ie=UTF-8
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Re: The sad state of regional pilots in Canada

Post by Zaibatsu »

Rookie pilot: Complains about whining

Is actually the whiniest poster on this board.
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rookiepilot
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Re: The sad state of regional pilots in Canada

Post by rookiepilot »

Zaibatsu wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:59 pm
Rookie pilot: Complains about whining

Is actually the whiniest poster on this board.
Unlike you; I don't whine about what I get paid, or about my employer, or the cost of anything. I just want my government to stop running down those of us who actually are productive.

This thread started with posters whining they aren't making 100K in year one with free flight training, at the very best time in aviation probably in 2 decades, yeah is annoying to some of us who've had a far rougher journey getting established.
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