I am a commercial pilot student who is having troubles with the school and their records system. My school uses an electronic pilot training record and approximately half my times were not entered in my pilot training record by my instructors. The CFI said in an email that he will try to correct this. Further to that, I was told that they don't use a paper PTR so I don't have a PTR at all whatsoever for my commercial. I just have my logbook which has all the times and a description of exercises performed on that flight.
I have decided to switch schools due to personal reasons and the new school wants a paper PTR signed off by the CFI from the old school. To make matters more complicated, some of the times at the school was in a block time airplane from my friend and my instructor from that time signed me out on solos in that plane. I have asked the CFI to put those hours in the paper PTR but there is grey area in that regard. TC tells me that "it is the legal right of the owner of that aircraft to allow you to train in that plane". The CFI says "thats a CARs violation". Now this is a big mess - anyone have any suggestions or ideas on what steps I should take to protect myself in this case?
captainhack wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:14 pm
To make matters more complicated, some of the times at the school was in a block time airplane from my friend and my instructor from that time signed me out on solos in that plane. I have asked the CFI to put those hours in the paper PTR but there is grey area in that regard.
You can have more than one PTR, if you need to. The instructor with whom you did the extra training should enter those hours in a paper PTR for you, if the CFI won’t.
What is *definitely* a CARs violation is for your school not to record the hours you trained with them, and to be unable to provide you with a printed copy, signed if you ask, by the CFI.
Contact directly the TC inspector assigned to supervise that FTU, explain that they are unwilling to provide you a record of your training, and you may get things resolved very quickly.
---------- ADS -----------
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
It the electronic PTR is only half-filled-out, and you push the issue with Transport, how much would you like to bet that he'll get a paper PTR with only that data that's already in the electronic PTR. See if the electronic PTR can get updated first, see if it's possible to take a screenshot or something to confirm that it's there, and *then* go to Transport if they won't give you a signed paper copy.
TC will accept an electronic PTR as long as it is in the correct format and appropriately signed of by the student and CFI or delegate.
The PTR belongs to the student and not to the school. Completing the PTR is a CAR's requirement for the instructor and the school so the best thing to do in these situations is tell the school you want a complete PTR provided or you will contact TC. If they give you grief then talk to TC ASAP
As was pointed out by another poster you absolutely can have more than one PTR.
There must be financial records of the flight time with the FTU - receipts or credit card/bank statements? I would think you could make the case rather quickly that either you flew those hours that you paid for and need to be credited for them, or they owe you a good bit of money back for time that you supposedly didn't fly. I would think that some pressure through TC and a letter from a lawyer should clear this up.
During my meeting with the CFI today, he agreed to complete my PTR (and he was not pleased because he got a phone call from TC). He now says: "I will put in whatever is within the regulations to get you through". I asked him what that means and I was told that he would put the 70 hours (35 dual and 35 solo). Once I get the completed PTR back, I will know what he has actually done and will take it from there. I have contacted TC and they told me that they would call and speak to the CFI (which they did). I have saved a printed copy from the electronic PTR and I have all the receipts. What really annoys me is that they are holding my PTR hostage to control the situation.
captainhack wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:52 pm
During my meeting with the CFI today, he agreed to complete my PTR (and he was not pleased because he got a phone call from TC). He now says: "I will put in whatever is within the regulations to get you through". I asked him what that means and I was told that he would put the 70 hours (35 dual and 35 solo). Once I get the completed PTR back, I will know what he has actually done and will take it from there. I have contacted TC and they told me that they would call and speak to the CFI (which they did). I have saved a printed copy from the electronic PTR and I have all the receipts. What really annoys me is that they are holding my PTR hostage to control the situation.
Did you only fly those 70 hours at that FTU, or did you fly more? I would insist that all flown hours are being added.
---------- ADS -----------
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
I flew 130ish hours at that FTU (dual and solo combined, some of it was night and IFR training). I will ask him to add all that after he gets back to me with the 70 hours. Atleast that way I have the 70 hours in case things go further south.
captainhack wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:08 pm
I flew 130ish hours at that FTU (dual and solo combined, some of it was night and IFR training). I will ask him to add all that after he gets back to me with the 70 hours. Atleast that way I have the 70 hours in case things go further south.
What a fucked up way of doing business (assuming all the info posted here is correct). How do they decide which of those 130 hours they will drop from the PTR? What if you need those hours later for other licenses or ratings?
I would not just accept this.
Did you keep a personal logbook of *all* flown hours? If so you could try to get that certified by the CFI, or add all the flights in a paper PTR yourself, that way the CFI only has to certify it. He might *just* be lazy. Comments from your instructor about your progression would be missing of course, but that would be the case with a partial printout as well...
I'm sure I'm not the only one who is curious which FTU is acting this way. Could you at least tell us the province?
---------- ADS -----------
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
I wish I could say the name of the school. But, as you know, I cannot. All I can say is that they are big and well known. This kinda school is the last place anyone (like myself) would expect something like this to happen. I am not gonna just bend over for them but for the sake of my career I am not gonna make it a huge deal either.
The students' PTRs are required to be maintained by the FTU, under the direction of the CFI. The student always has the right to access their PTR. The accountable executive is responsible to ensure that the CFI has been doing this, or else action can be taken against the FTU OC, including suspension.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned that is of great importance: The exercises flown by the FTU must be logged in the Daily Flight record, without exception. Furthermore, there must be a matching entry in the PTR by exercise, flight time, etc. If I remember correctly, there is a two-year minimum record keeping requirement on DFRs. So the FTU definitely has the data, and you should demand not only immediate entry of this data into your PTR, but that your PTR be immediately relinquished to your care. Get on the horn with TC ASAP. FTUs will generally get moving if they smell an audit or certificate action.
digits_ wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:45 pm
What a fucked up way of doing business (assuming all the info posted here is correct). How do they decide which of those 130 hours they will drop from the PTR? What if you need those hours later for other licenses or ratings?
I agree it’s totally shabby, but it will have no future impact. Once you have a CPL the only higher rating that requires a PTR is the instructor rating, and in that is to be recorded only hours flown specifically toward that rating.
Other hours-based requirements (where they exist) are demonstrated by providing your personal log to the Authorised Person or TC licencing officer.
---------- ADS -----------
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
digits_ wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:45 pm
What a fucked up way of doing business (assuming all the info posted here is correct). How do they decide which of those 130 hours they will drop from the PTR? What if you need those hours later for other licenses or ratings?
I agree it’s totally shabby, but it will have no future impact. Once you have a CPL the only higher rating that requires a PTR is the instructor rating, and in that is to be recorded only hours flown specifically toward that rating.
Other hours-based requirements (where they exist) are demonstrated by providing your personal log to the Authorised Person or TC licencing officer.
You never know. The OP might want to explore an overseas career with an airline that is very big on training records (they exist). A half missing PTR could work against him. He might want to pursue licenses in other countries, he might need his PTR with signatures to prove all the exercises he did.
I never thought I would need any training records after I got my CPL. But hey, transport wanted me to prove that I met some specific requirements while converting my licenses. Having the records saved me a few hundred dollars in airplane rental at the time and a few days of training.
It is hard to predict what life will bring. Better be as prepared as possible. Having complete training records is worth much more than the potentially "bad rep" you would get from pissing off a CFI. FTUs don't have that much power over your career -except if you want to work as said FTU of course-, it is more important to have the contact info from some of your instructors if you do need references for that first job.
---------- ADS -----------
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Recall that you don’t keep your PTR; it’s sent in with your CPL application. You may, exceptionally, keep a photocopy for yourself, but that would be unusual. Most don’t bother.
The PTR is not intended to be used for proof of training to anyone but Transport Canada. You could offer a photocopy of your PTR at some future point to some unspecified company, but your logbook would have the same information, and you could support the copy with sight of the original, something you could not do with a PTR after it was submitted.
I really wouldn’t worry about future repercussions to you personally of not having all the flights entered in the PTR regulatory requirements having been met - except it reflects particularly poorly on the FTU.
---------- ADS -----------
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Thanks to everyone here for giving me ideas on how to dig myself out of this mess. Long story short, the TC inspector designated to the school called the CFI to tell him that he legally has no other choice but to fill out the records of training including training completed in the block time aircraft. He ended up spending hours "rebuilding" my flight training record in the electronic PTR, transferring it to the paper PTR, signing all of the pages of the PTR, rewriting all the comments for each flight and then matching all of the flights to my logbook and payment records. When I showed up to pick up all of the paperwork, he had everything filled out, signed, and logbook certified for me.
According to my TC contact. You own your PTR. Call tc and find out there inspector, i imagine a simple phone call/email will have it completed and in your hands.
