Order of ratings

[Braun]

Hey guys and gals,

I need advice. I currently have my PPL(~80h), own my own single engine high wing and would like to my CPL, IFR and multi. I’m just not sure in which order to them in order to minimize the training time/cost. I’d be doing it mostly for my own experience as I’m not really looking at a career change. I just like learning new things and would like to add the ratings. Cost isn’t a huge issue but I already feel like I’m burning cash for « nothing » so which order would you start these? Thanks in advance!

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Sorry, but why bother with the MIFR stuff? Those need to be maintained regularly. If you're doing this just for the enjoyment and experience it seems a bit much. But there may be reasons not mentioned here yet.

On the other hand, if you've got the money to burn on an MIFR craft to fly friends/family around, then more power to you. Why be so concerned about the cost? If you don't have the cash to fly friends around in a multi, then why bother with ratings that you'll need to maintain? I just sorta seems to me that you're burning cash for « nothing » regardless, so I don't think I understand the question?

If you're looking to drop skydivers, tow gliders or banners, or even just pick up the odd passenger for some weekend or side hustle work, then a CPL makes sense, but otherwise, it just doesn't. Again unless you just want to do it all for the fun of it and you have the cash to burn, why bother/pay for it and then maintain it?

As for the original question, try to do as many hours as possible at night, or on a multi, while you work towards the CPL, so those hours can be counted for both. Try not to just build time towards a CPL, but while you're building those 200 hours, work on the night rating and the MIFR at the same time.

Or, do it my way - train on floats.

[Braun]

Sorry, but why bother with the MIFR stuff? Those need to be maintained regularly. If you're doing this just for the enjoyment and experience it seems a bit much. But there may be reasons not mentioned here yet.

On the other hand, if you've got the money to burn on an MIFR craft to fly friends/family around, then more power to you. Why be so concerned about the cost? If you don't have the cash to fly friends around in a multi, then why bother with ratings that you'll need to maintain? I just sorta seems to me that you're burning cash for « nothing » regardless, so I don't think I understand the question?

If you're looking to drop skydivers, tow gliders or banners, or even just pick up the odd passenger for some weekend or side hustle work, then a CPL makes sense, but otherwise, it just doesn't. Again unless you just want to do it all for the fun of it and you have the cash to burn, why bother/pay for it and then maintain it?

As for the original question, try to do as many hours as possible at night, or on a multi, while you work towards the CPL, so those hours can be counted for both. Try not to just build time towards a CPL, but while you're building those 200 hours, work on the night rating and the MIFR at the same time.

Or, do it my way - train on floats.

Thanks for the reply! You have valid questions as to my motivations. I currently have a good job that I enjoy and pays well. I’d like to do the Multi IFR and CPL so that one day, maybe, I could work part time or find a local flying gig during my retirement. I’d rather do the ratings now to have them and although maintaining them is definitely costly it isn’t a big deal as I enjoy learning and flying. It’s not that I don’t have the cash I just want to spend it in the most « effective » way to gain the ratings. Buying a twin isn’t out of the question eventually. I just figured that doing my IFR on a single wasn’t ideal since I realistically wouldn’t fly my aircraft in IFR conditions anyways so why not do the multi at the same time. Thanks a lot for reply though, it helps.

[Bede]

If you're looking to drop skydivers, tow gliders or banners, or even just pick up the odd passenger for some weekend or side hustle work, then a CPL makes sense, .

Sorry, what?

[waterdog]

Hi Braun
It’s a good question and one I often think about. Here is what I have found.
I reference the Brampton flight centre training page when I’m looking for rating information. It seems a lot of schools combine ifr with multi as it is advertised as a little less expensive. It seems you need 10hrs of dual for the multi rating and if you can do some of that under a hood it counts towards your IFR time.
Couple of things to consider tho.
If you get your night rating you will add another 5hrs dual instrument time which brings you up to 10 ( 5 from ppl). Now you can get some valuable night xcountry time.
If you add another 5hrs of dual instrument you can get your VFR OTT, not very useful but it’s a step.
After that it really depends on what you want to do. If you get your cpl you are going to increase your medical frequency but I don’t think it expires.
An IFR rating is a lot of work to maintain and a whole lot more to stay proficient, but is the one rating that will lower your insurance rate.

My 2 cents
At 80 hrs with no current ambition to change careers......you need to fly the wings off your plane and get some experience. Fly to the east coast, fly to the US, do a ton of reading on weather and see what you enjoy. Personally I went the float route and will never go back. Flying floats in Canada opens up so many areas to enjoy.

The best part of flying for fun is it doesn’t matter, just do what you enjoy!

K

[kilocharliemike]

I did:

TC PPL in Canada

in Florida,
FAA private multi
FAA multi ifr
FAA multi commercial
FAA single addon
TC conversion exam

Pros
Dollar was at par back then so I got a Piper Seneca instructor in for the cost of a 172 here.
lots of twin time
flew around the Florida Keys, Eastern coast, and some very cool places...fun shit
finish with 250 perfect for IATRA
Did it like a full time job back in roughly 6 months.
Super Cheap less than 50ish

Cons
networking, came back to TC flying and had no real flying contacts, multi time means nothing if no one knows you or knows someone who flew with you. Networking in my opinion has proven more important than anything else...

This was a career change for me so I did it for work. Super fun

KCM

[Float_lover]

There is the order I usually give to my student:

-night rating (build up your IFR time)
-around 150 hours- multi
-the IFR (that you need to keep valid)
and then the CPL

VFR OTT is not very useful if you plan to do your CPL as it's included.

You can do your multi-engine at any time but later is better as you will have better overall control on the plane and you want to do your IFR right after the multi has you still have the hand on it.

[broken_slinky]

There is the order I usually give to my student:

-night rating (build up your IFR time)
-around 150 hours- multi
-the IFR (that you need to keep valid)
and then the CPL

VFR OTT is not very useful if you plan to do your CPL as it's included.

You can do your multi-engine at any time but later is better as you will have better overall control on the plane and you want to do your IFR right after the multi has you still have the hand on it.

+1
You'll get your night and OTT while doing the IFR training. Some of the hours for the IFR will count towards your CPL if you discuss it with your instructor prior to gear your training time towards that end goal.

[Braun]

Awesome, thanks everyone. I’ll do my night rating first and then Work from there!!! Although owning my own plane is cool I have to deal with all the extra crap too so we’ll see how fast I can do it!

[broken_slinky]

Do your IFR training now at night. Those hours will count towards your night rating. Even if you don't go past night and OTT, the IFR training will be of benefit.

[Pilotdaddy]

Do your IFR training now at night. Those hours will count towards your night rating. Even if you don't go past night and OTT, the IFR training will be of benefit.

Don't you need 50xc hours first before starting IFR training, or am I reading that incorrectly?

Also, are you saying that you can double dip IFR training at night so that it counts as both "night" hours as well as "instrument" hours?

[photofly]

You cannot double dip for the purposes of getting a night rating. When you apply for a night rating, hours that are counted as "instrument hours" must be separate and distinct from the hours that are counted as "night hours". In your logbook, instrument time flown at night is both "night" and "instrument" time. It's just that you can only count time that is in both columns towards one, or the other experience requirement, for the night rating.

However, if you do your instrument training at night then the taxi time, takeoff and landing time counts as "night" time. Whereas if you do instrument training during the day, the taxi, takeoff and landing time doesn't count towards anything that you will need.

There is no restriction on when you can begin training for an instrument rating. In fact, amongst the (fairly complex) experience requirements are five hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating. Most applicants for the Instrument Rating completed their PPL in Canada and therefore can use the five hours dual instrument time they required for the PPL towards that requirement. It can accurately be claimed therefore that most people begin training for their instrument rating even before acquiring a PPL.

[Pilotdaddy]

Thanks!

Just so I understand this correctly, is the assumption below correct?

Say we do a flight at night totaling 1.3 hours, of which 0.3 hours are under the hood. The way this credits is as follows...

1.0 hours "night", counted against the Night Rating requirement (i)(A)
0.3 hours "instrument", counted against Night Rating requirement (ii)
1.0 hours "night", counted against the CPL requirement (A)(I)
0.3 hours "instrument", counted against CPL requirement (III)
0.3 hours "instrument", counted against Instrument Rating requirement (ii)(A)

Is that right? Requirements referenced below...


*Night Rating requirements*
An applicant for a night rating shall have acquired in aeroplanes a minimum of 20 hours of pilot flight time which shall include a minimum of:

(i) 10 hours of night flight time including a minimum of:
(A) 5 hours dual flight time, including 2 hours of cross-country flight time,
(B) 5 hours solo flight time, including 10 takeoffs, circuits and landings, and
(ii) 10 hours dual instrument time.
(iii) Credit for a maximum of five hours of the 10 hours of dual instrument time may be given for instrument ground time, provided that the total instrument time shall be in addition to the 10 hours night flight time in subparagraph (a)(i) above.

*CPL requirements*
(A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating — Aeroplane, including:
(I) 5 hours night, including a minimum of 2 hours of cross-country flight time;
(II) 5 hours cross-country, which may include the cross-country experience stated in subclause (I); and
(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.

*Instrument Rating requirements*
An applicant shall have completed a minimum of:
(i) 50 hours of cross-country flight as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which 10 hours must be in the appropriate category; and
(ii) 40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of:
(A) 5 hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating,
(B) 5 hours in aeroplanes where the applicant is applying for a Group 1, 2 or 3 instrument rating or in helicopters where the applicant is applying for a Group 4 instrument rating,
C) Fifteen (15) hours of dual instrument flight time provided by a qualified person as specified in section 425.21(9); and
(D) one dual cross-country flight under simulated or actual IMC conditions of a minimum of 100 nautical miles, the flight to be conducted in accordance with an IFR flight plan to include at, two different locations, an instrument approach to minima.

[photofly]

Thanks!

Just so I understand this correctly, is the assumption below correct?

Say we do a flight at night totaling 1.3 hours, of which 0.3 hours are under the hood. The way this credits is as follows...

For the night rating, you can apply the 1.3 night entirely towards the night requirement, or 1.0 towards the night requirement and 0.3 towards the dual instrument time requirement, or anything in between.


The CPL requirements entirely subsume the night rating requirements, as follows:

The dual requirements for the night rating are five hours dual including 2 dual x-c at night, and 10 dual instrument time (which cannot overlap with the night time). The dual requirements for the CPL include (night) five hours dual including 2 dual x-c, and 20 dual instrument time *post PPL* (which cannot overlap with the night time), plus a bunch of other dual time, which I guess you could do day or night, it doesn't say.

The solo requirements for the night rating are five hours solo night flight; the solo requirements for the CPL include five hours solo night flight plus a whole bunch of other stuff, which you can fly day or night, as you please.

If you never bothered to apply for the night rating and completed only the requirements for the (unrestricted) CPL whose privileges include those of a night rating, you would have to complete exactly the same training in the same number of hours.

For an instrument rating, you need forty instrument hours, all dual, with an instructor, qualified person, or your dog, in various combinations. It doesn't matter if the time is day, or night.

If you do all your Instrument Rating training at night and with an instructor (not an otherwise qualified person, or your dog) before you get a CPL or night rating, you will have a lot of taxi, takeoff and landing time, dual and at night, that can later be applied towards the dual requirements for the night rating and CPL. You may even have five hours of it; but you will not have learned to fly VFR at night and you would not meet the requirement for making a "qualifying flight" which is the experience requirement in lieu of a flight test for a night rating. And you will have to pay for a lot more instructor time than you need, if you have a buddy who is a qualified person, or your dog is smart.



If you have an instructor who still needs to gain night PIC time for his or her ATPL, it's very beneficial to the instructor do your instrument training at night.

[Pilotdaddy]

For an instrument rating, you need forty instrument hours, all dual, with an instructor, qualified person, or your dog, in various combinations. It doesn't matter if the time is day, or night

And that's forty total, including the ten from the PPL/night requirement, correct? Not forty additional on top of the ten?

[photofly]

It's all very clear in CARs standard 421.26.

[Pilotdaddy]

What about this scenario...

You are training for the CPL and are doing a flight to satisfy the 300NM XC requirement. You are the PIC and invited a passenger (non-pilot) to tag along. Can you then put on the hood in parts of that flight to satisfy the IFR requirement below, while utilizing your passenger to do any lookouts for traffic?

After the 5 dual from PPL (A)(B) plus the 15 (C) and say the 2 (D), there's still 18 hours to go to meet the 40 required. There's nothing specified, as far as I can tell, as to who you should be with to log the 18 remaining instrument hours, nor is there any guidance as to how it should be flown. Can a regular non-pilot passenger act as a lookout while under the hood so as to log both instrument time and xc time, particularly while on the 300NM? What if this was done at night, will it also count as night hours? It's not totally clear where the Venn diagram intersects on these requirements, if any.

40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of:
(A) 5 hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating,
(B) 5 hours in aeroplanes where the applicant is applying for a Group 1, 2 or 3 instrument rating or in helicopters where the applicant is applying for a Group 4 instrument rating,
(C) Fifteen (15) hours of dual instrument flight time provided by a qualified person as specified in section 425.21(9); and
(D) one dual cross-country flight under simulated or actual IMC conditions of a minimum of 100 nautical miles, the flight to be conducted in accordance with an IFR flight plan to include at, two different locations, an instrument approach to minima.

[photofly]

There is no intersection, unless explicitly permitted.

No part of the the 300nm x-c for the CPL can be flown under instrument conditions. You can take a passenger, but the flight is part of the “solo flight time emphasizing the improvement of general flying skills of the applicant” which is incompatible with learning instrument flight. Once you have a night rating the 300nm x-c could be flown at night, but once you have a night rating you already have all the night flight time you need for the CPL anyway.

The instrument x-c for the instrument rating must be flown as part of the required time with an instructor or qualified person, since it has to be on an IFR flight plan. The balance (20 hours) of the 40 hours, not specified as with an instructor or qualified person, can be flown (as simulated instrument flight) with anyone responsible enough to look for traffic and hazards, it doesn’t have to be a qualified pilot, or instructor.

As stated many many many times, where there is a requirement for both night and instrument time for a licence or rating, the same hours may not be counted towards both requirements at the same time. Night instrument time counts only towards either night requirements, or instrument requirements, at the applicant’s discretion, but NEVER both.

[Pilotdaddy]

No part of the the 300nm x-c for the CPL can be flown under instrument conditions. You can take a passenger, but the flight is part of the “solo flight time emphasizing the improvement of general flying skills of the applicant” which is incompatible with learning instrument flight. Once you have a night rating the 300nm x-c could be flown at night, but once you have a night rating you already have all the night flight time you need for the CPL anyway.

Well, doesn't learning how to fly under the hood count as "improvement of general flying skills"? You've always taught me to ask "Where is the CARs reference?"... so, where is it?

Flying at night is not for the night rating, it's for the ATPL way down the line. I've seen many posts saying "do your xc at night so that it counts towards the 25 req. for the ATPL" so that's where the motivation comes from. Note that I'm not asking if this is a smart thing for a fresh PPL to do... just curious where the boundaries are, not from personal minimums, but as dictated by CARs.

The instrument x-c for the instrument rating must be flown as part of the required time with an instructor or qualified person, since it has to be on an IFR flight plan. The balance (20 hours) of the 40 hours, not specified as with an instructor or qualified person, can be flown (as simulated instrument flight) with anyone responsible enough to look for traffic and hazards, it doesn’t have to be a qualified pilot, or instructor.

Got it.

As stated many many many times, where there is a requirement for both night and instrument time for a licence or rating, the same hours may not be counted towards both requirements at the same time. Night instrument time counts only towards either night requirements, or instrument requirements, at the applicant’s discretion, but NEVER both.

As mentioned above, the night hours was to be used for the ATPL night xc requirements, not the night rating. I guess still no double dipping when trying to fulfill that together with say the IFR requirement below?

An applicant shall have completed a minimum of:
(i) 50 hours of cross-country flight as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which 10 hours must be in the appropriate category

[photofly]

No part of the the 300nm x-c for the CPL can be flown under instrument conditions. You can take a passenger, but the flight is part of the “solo flight time emphasizing the improvement of general flying skills of the applicant” which is incompatible with learning instrument flight. Once you have a night rating the 300nm x-c could be flown at night, but once you have a night rating you already have all the night flight time you need for the CPL anyway.

Well, doesn't learning how to fly under the hood count as "improvement of general flying skills"? You've always taught me to ask "Where is the CARs reference?"... so, where is it?

It's in the plain meaning of the words. Learning instrument flight is distinct from improving your general flying skills.

Flying at night is not for the night rating, it's for the ATPL way down the line. I've seen many posts saying "do your xc at night so that it counts towards the 25 req. for the ATPL

Sure. Get as much night time as you can. But it doesn't save you any hours: whether or not you get night hours by doing your CPL x-c at night, you still need to make up 250 hours of PIC time to get your ATPL.

The situation where it helps is for CPL holders who use flight instruction to build hours towards an ATPL: they find that all their instructing (and therefore paid-for) flying is done during the day, so getting night hours is a pain later on; but the total hours flown will be the same however you structure it.


"No intersection" refers to the requirements within a licence or rating. The requirements for different licences and ratings are very carefully worded to stand alone (other than, for example, where the regulations read "following the issue of a PPL..."), and should be interpreted as such.