Got kicked out of my flight school today

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

This sounds to me like an overreaction on the part of your flight school. Assuming you own up to it, learn from it, and don't do it again, I fully and completely think they're in the wrong here, based on the information I have before me. I'm still a student pilot, just a few years older than you. If my instructor had the same attitude (let's say I bumped a fuel tank or another aircraft while taxiing) while I was fully accepting of the responsibility for it and willing to pay for the damages... if he PFO'd me... I would have no kind words to speak of him (sorry Alec). It's on your flight school to not let you solo until you can, and they need to accept some responsibility if they let you go too early. It sounds like they aren't doing that. If my instructor then "demoted" me, hey, that's cool - I made a mistake, he made a mistake, but I was PIC and it's therefore my fault. So, I pay for it, hopefully it all gets fixed promptly, and we all learn from the experience.

Now, if he called me later the same day and just... fired me, compensation would not be forthcoming. If you don't give me even the chance to own up to my fμckup, then fine, even if I know I'll lose - I'll see you in court, because fμck you. I really think your flight school was looking for a reason to get rid of you, and this was a convenient excuse (or perhaps the last straw, however I lack enough information to make that judgement fairly).

Now as for going this long, what is it, 75ish hours without your PPL? I think you should hook up with another instructor or two - even try some training flights at another school. Either you're the problem, your instructor is, or the school is. From what I've learned, it's not usually the former. As for using the "little engine that could" training method, I do that too. I am afraid, quite often (especially in low altitude/low airspeed situations), but I persist, because I know I will fly.

If you think you can do this, don't quit. Market cycles come and go, and both of us are old enough to get that. I'm still betting on a pilot shortage, and I'm seriously considering buying AC stock - in my not so humble opinion, the market and the job market will bounce back, and I think it will do that before you're looking for work (don't forget that I'm just a random dude on the Internet).

(And I can recommend a spectacular instructor if you're in the GTA, pm me if you want details)

[TalkingPie]

I appreciate everyone's perspectives and interest, I really do. It's giving me some perspective on the situation, and confirming my feelings that the ownership at this school isn't necessarily all class, notwithstanding the fact that I'm the one who screwed up in the first place.

I'm not really comfortable talking about the name of the school; the purpose of this thread was to gain insight on my potential as a pilot, and not to try to drag anyone's name through the mud. For those interested, I live near the Quebec/Ontario border. Work has me based in Montreal.

[DirtyDashDriver]

The fact that you're owning up to your mistake with only 76 hours is definitely something to commend. I know airline pilots with many thousands of hours who won't own up for things a lot more minor, so good on you. I also like the fact you're not burning bridges. This industry is far too small for that sort of thing. It is very true what they say - your student today is your chief pilot tomorrow.

Yes, you made a mistake, but that's a part of the aviation game. We all do, whether we care to admit it or not. Research by Helmrich on airline crews during Line Operations Safety Audits (LOSA) identified the average error is two per flight and ranges from a low of zero to a high of fourteen. Interestingly, of the errors observed, the stat is that 77% of errors "elicited no response" from the pilot. That's not to suggest in any way that damage occurs frequently, but it does highlight that many pilots don't catch their mistakes. Some mistakes are small, and other mistakes snowball into an incident or accident. Excrement happens, so they say.

Dust yourself off, go to another school and see if they can help you. I think everyone has had that one instructor or two along the way who couldn't teach their way out of a plastic bag, yet had other instructors who cleared everything up in a sentence. You'll regret it if you don't give it another go.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

I had a student wreck the nose gear of a 172. First solo too. Bounced, panicked, porpoised, Basically "Encored" onto the runway.

At least she didn't Jazz it all the way back to Montreal.

[PilotDAR]

TalkingPie,

I support all of the advice above. If the school would not at least have an open discussion with you about your future business, before asking you to leave, take your PTR and go. Training is a team effort, and they are not being a good enough team member to you. You've met your obligation of honour. Some teams just don't work. Think the best of the learning experience you had there, and move on.

If/when in the future, you're asked if you've been involved in an incident, be as forthright as you have been here, and you'll be fine.

And.... word gets around... the boss of this school has probably already become aware of this discussion. If they're not rethinking how they treated you, at least they might rethink how they treat the next person....

[photofly]

You shouldn't CT a student as a punishment. For a start, it might actually be blessed release for them, you never know.

You should - and must - CT a student if there's a breakdown in the relationship such that the school can no longer provide effective training. An incident of minor damage could be the last event that leads to such a breakdown, but if it is, it's hard to conceive a circumstance where that would come as a surprise to the student.

There may be one-time student behaviours that cause an immediate and irrevocable break down in the relationship - I can think of a few possibilities. But they would be deliberate actions on the part of the student, or at least reckless ones.

There can also be other reasons that have more to do with the school, or instructor, than the student. The student may not agree with them, or even be aware of them. However, it's the school's and instructor's responsibility to provide the best training they can, and if the truth is that they can no longer do that - for whatever reason - they have to stop trying. Of course there are other steps that can be taken first - a different instructor at the same school, for example. But a student doesn't have a right to be trained any more than a school has the right to a student.

In any case, it's a mistake to make such a decision rashly, and it's probably a mistake to convey such a decision by phone.

[TalkingPie]

I'd like to update this after speaking with the chief pilot today, as it's changed my appreciation for what they did and why they did it. Of course, the right order of operations in the first place would've been to have a debrief with me before an administrator called me in a 2 minute phone conversation to tell me I was kicked out. Then again, proper operations also would have been for me not to run a plane I don't own into a solid object, so none of us are perfect.

The good news for me is that the flight school is not going through their insurance for the damage, which they say is valued "into the thousands." The chief pilot said that this will keep my record legitimately clean and incident free. He also said that he would be happy to give me a good reference should anyone ask for one, but that due to liability concerns, they were letting me go. According to him, they wouldn't want to put themselves into a position where if I had another incident, they would have to explain to their insurance or regulators why I was allowed to continue after already causing damage. Is that a legitimate concern after what I did? I don't feel qualified to say. But at least I left the place feeling a little better than I did yesterday, although still remorseful for having a) Caused others hassle and expense and b) Making a significant-enough error while at the controls of an aircraft.

When I asked the question of whether he feels I have the potential to be a safe pilot, the chief pilot was non-committal. Of course it's in his best interest to keep me happy now that I'm no longer his problem, and he's also witnessed very little of my flying, other than sitting my pre-solo with me. It comes as no surprise at this point that no one is high-fiving me for my flying skill, while I also know that few people want to tell someone to their face that they suck at what they're trying to do.

In any case, I'm free to shop around for a new flight school and let my skill, or lack thereof, speak for itself in earning my PPL. I should be so lucky that this'll be the biggest setback I suffer in my flying career.

[PilotDAR]

if I had another incident, they would have to explain to their insurance or regulators why I was allowed to continue after already causing damage. Is that a legitimate concern after what I did?

Cop out comment. They seem to be saying that they are not confident that they cannot train you to not do this again. Can you be trained to not do this again?

Have confidence in yourself, it's not sounding as though they do (nor their own instruction).

[photofly]

He also said that he would be happy to give me a good reference should anyone ask for one, but that ...

But he won’t stand behind that reference to keep you on as a student. There’s so much I would like to say about that, but won’t.

I should add, depending on what he might say in a reference, improperly not disclosing the reasons for your departure could land him in a huge amount of trouble, should it ever come to light. You can say many things, but you should never ever lie. Not even by omission.

That caution apples to you too, by the way: having a “clean record” doesn’t just mean no insurance claims. Here's the relevant question from a recent insurance renewal form I had:

"Accidents, Claims, Incidents or Violations within the last 5 years?"

It's very hard to see how a collision under power of an aircraft of which you were PIC with a stationary obstacle, causing thousands of dollars of damage, is anything other than an "incident".


Just remember, in life, as in politics: it’s not the crime that gets you, it’s the cover-up.

[TalkingPie]

The advice is well taken. I'm hearing from multiple corners outside of this thread, "Don't say anything about this."
The way I see it, either it's not that big a deal - a collision at walking speeds while learning to fly could arguably be characterized as such - or it is a big deal. Either way, it seems I'm better off not hiding it, and certainly not lying about it.

[PilotDAR]

Either way, it seems I'm better off not hiding it, and certainly not lying about it.

Correct; the event is not a big deal, misrepresenting it would be!

[7ECA]

Who is this "administrator" and what is their position within the FTU? Are they the owner, or part of the ownership of the FTU? Why is someone other than the CFI making decisions about the status of students at the FTU?

Liability concerns, what a load of utter crap. We're willing to give you a glowing reference, but not allow you to continue training here. Sort of a contradiction, but then again nothing surprises me much any more when it comes to FTUs and or operators in general. Talking out of both sides of their mouthes, seems to be a common ability.

You've owned up to this mistake, which is minor (in my opinion) - and I assume you probably wanted to make it right as well. The FTUs (or maybe the owners) reaction was to boot you. Just, bizarre.

As for the event going forward, certainly don't hide it - odds are the FTU will have "passed on" the information (it's a small industry, as they say), but at the same time you need to realize that being forthcoming can also have the opposite effect that you expect it to. Some people are uncomfortable around others who display a modicum of candour...

[vinzer]

Go to school and take your PTR. If for any reason they refuse giving it to you advise them that you will report them to TC.
PTR is your property and the only legal document to support your 70+ hours of training.
After that find other FTU school and complete your training. Do not delay, do not let this little incident to slow you down in getting your ticket.
Good luck!

[derateNO]

The advice is well taken. I'm hearing from multiple corners outside of this thread, "Don't say anything about this."
The way I see it, either it's not that big a deal - a collision at walking speeds while learning to fly could arguably be characterized as such - or it is a big deal. Either way, it seems I'm better off not hiding it, and certainly not lying about it.

It won't set you back at all. I wouldn't really mention anything to any perspective FTUs but if you get asked in an interview for a flying job just say what happened. It's honestly SO minor man. I know people who have legit crashed planes and had gear up landings now working for major airlines.

It's just shitty how the FTU is treating you. Their answer about insurance liability is a cop-out.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

you need to realize that being forthcoming can also have the opposite effect that you expect it to. Some people are uncomfortable around others who display a modicum of candour...

True that. I've made mistakes in my previous line of work (which to be fair cost far more than a few thousand dollars) and I've always been forthcoming about them, and yeah, some people act as if they've never made a mistake, or had a close call. I just don't work for arseholes like that.

Like others have said - don't hide it, but be prepared for some holier-than-thou asshats to judge you unfairly for it. It's a fact of life.

For what it's worth, I agree with most others here - it was a minor accident, and one that I'm sure many people have made, and far more than admit to it have come close to making.

[co-joe]

I had a student wreck the nose gear of a 172. First solo too. Bounced, panicked, porpoised, Basically "Encored" onto the runway.

At least she didn't Jazz it all the way back to Montreal.

Good point. That story still blows me away.

[broken_slinky]

Their answer about insurance liability is a cop-out.

What is your statement based on? Do you deal with their insurance provider or have knowledge of the conversations between the FTU and their provider? Over the last few years, especially this year, underwriters are using every excuse under the sun to deny or jack up rates to unbelievable levels. There has also been a bunch of underwriters who have gotten out of the aviation market all together. The ones remaining are being very selective when quoting specifically to FTUs. Even if the operator does not submit a claim for the damage, they can still be penalized for it.